China's role at Copenhagen- Deliberate Sabotage

[Armand2REP]

Emitting is a basic need for developing countries such as China and India to finish the process of massive industrialization.

Then do it within Copenhagen, the EU is cutting emissions to lower per capita than what China and India will be in the next ten years. There is plenty of room for growth within the caps, it will just have to be responsible.

I am glad you agree with me that people from developing countries like China and India have the right to pursue a comfortable life which you french are already enjoying.

They have the right to do it within the limits of not destroying the planet which entails a responsibility the EU is already taking up, reduction of emissions. We are reducing our emissions so you have the opportunity to grow some of yours, it isn't you who are giving up anything, it is us. Then we are supposed to bankroll it too. Who is sacrificing here? China has plenty of money to fund their own Green Plan, more than we do yet we pay.

Current carbon emission per capita in China and India is much lower than it is in developed countries such as France and US, we have promised that we will keep it low in the future. Our success will not come from a high carbon emmissions.

So sign the agreement and stop playing games. China looks like a spoiled child with all these antics.

China is aready doing these.
Dont you read news? The prime minister of France is visiting China, China has signed a nuclear power deal worth 1.5 billion Euro with France.

New coal fired plants go up every week, it isn't even a fraction of a fraction.

And before lecturing us on what we should do, think about what you should do.

We are cutting emissions 39% by 2020. Brazil is cutting emissions by 36% yet China is going to almost double emissions in the same timeframe. We already get almost all our power from nuclear. We are doing the right thing, you are not.

Then you shouldn't emit so much carbon in the first place. Most of the carbon in the atmosphere has been emitted by developed coutries like France. Do you regret what you have done to the earth? I bet you will say you feel deeply sorry, but you will not take the responsibility.

Why should we apologise for anything? Our per capita ranks 59th. France emits less carbon than South Africa, Mexico, and a whole host of underdeveloped nations. China emits 25 times more carbon than we do. For a nation whose GDP is only slightly higher than ours, your industry is the most carbon intensive on the planet. Ours is amongst the cleanest. We have forsaken high growth rates for clean technologies for decades, it is why we are a global leader. You make the cheapest solar panels, why don't you use them more than you export them?

First, i want to ask you if it is a privilege for you to emit so much carbon per capita. If yes, care to tell me who granted that privilege to you?

No, which is why we are reducing ours to less than yours will be in five years. Copenhagen allows you to keep on growing emissions to a point while we have to reduce immediately.

Second, carbon emission per capita in China and India has never been and will never be as high as it is in you developed counries.

Can you tell me, if it is slightly possible that carbon emission per capita in France will be as low as it is in China and India? If you can't, pls shut up on this iusse![/QUOTE]

China per capita emissions will surpass France in five years. We developed EU countries are sacrificing what is necessary to save our planet. France has gone so far as initiating a carbon tax. You are getting all rightous with the wrong developed nation here, maybe if you were speaking with Americans you would have an argument but they aren't too keen on the idea themselves. They are greater to blame than you are, but Im not talking with an American here and neither are you.

So you are threatening us!

More like you are threatening yourselves. How can you be so blind as to what the CCP industrialisation is doing to your country? I doubt I need to tell you how significant the problem of pollution has become. It is destroying your country and you know it.

The only reason we will be hit the hardest first is becaue we failed to finish the industrialization like you did before. That is exactly the reason why we will not give up our right to emit carbon to develop our economies like you did before.

Go ahead and destroy yourselves, the deaths of hundreds of millions ought to cut your emissions by de facto drought. The Himalayan glaciers are melting away, your major rivers will soon be dried up. We don't have anything to worry about if China has that attitude because you will have solved the problem.

We are aware of the consepuences, and we already have made promises and we have taken actions to combat green house warming. But we will not do it at the expense of our economy.

You won't have an economy when the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers dry up. Should we shed a tear when your myopic vision of economic expansion kills many of your people?

 

[Known_Unknown]

France emits less carbon than South Africa, Mexico, and a whole host of underdeveloped nations. China emits 25 times more carbon than we do. For a nation whose GDP is only slightly higher than ours, your industry is the most carbon intensive on the planet. Ours is amongst the cleanest. We have forsaken high growth rates for clean technologies for decades, it is why we are a global leader. You make the cheapest solar panels, why don't you use them more than you export them?

France is an oddity among developed nations because it almost complete reliance on nuclear power. However, Europe is much more than just France. While you can be all self-righteous about not emitting as much C02 per capita, what are you doing with all that nuclear waste that is generated from the nuke reactors?

You can't tell me that you are unaware that the only recourse to get rid of that waste is to dump the radioactive material in the earth, where it will slowly decay for the next several thousand or million years. And what happens if that waste gets into contact with groundwater a few decades of centuries from now? You will all be drinking radioactive water, and genetic deformities will be rife among babies.

Nuclear waste is not any more clean than Co2 is, in fact, in the long term, it is arguably far more deadly.

 

[Armand2REP]

What credits? How does a coal fired plant equate with a nuclear power plant? The initial capital investment for a nuclear power plant is more than 10 times that of a coal fired plant. Secondly, there is also the issue of safety. Is France or the rest of the western world willing to transfer technology and finance the cost of a nuclear plant building spree in China and India? If so, then the developing world has no problem with switching to cleaner technologies.

That has been the basic negotiating position of both India and China at the summit.

1000MW clean coal plant costs $2 billion, same nuke plant costs $3-4 billion. Carbon credits can cover much of the difference but China should take care of the rest. They will get such economic benefits it makes it more than worth it just for agribusiness alone. Should we have to pay everything for China to save themselves when they are sitting on 2 trillion FOREX? We sacrificed high economic growth to procure green technologies and now we offer to help, all we get is a slap in the face and told to pay for all of it.

As it is in the interest of the rest of the world. However, asking that all countries make a 20% cut in their emissions by a particular date is unfair, because while that cut may entail a Frenchman driving a small car instead of a SUV to work, it would mean that a poor Indian who eats one time a day starve to death in order to meet the emission requirements. Any such proposal is absurd, laughable, and absolutely unacceptable.

China already set the target in November, now they renege on it. They are the ones who made it 45%!

It does not mean a poor Indian would have to starve, it means India would have to replace coal fired power plants with nuclear and dare I say, India seems to be making good with that. France, Russians, Americans, are all rushing for dozens of reactor sites. China only has a few possible deals. No Indians will starve and they will only have cleaner water to drink and irrigate with.

If the world truly wants to move away from carbon based fuels, they should go to the root of the problem. The developed countries, who bear the most responsibility for causing the problem in the first place, should:

1) First replace their own dirty power plants with wind farms, solar plants and nuke plants.

Yes, they should... France did so long ago.

2) Tax SUVs, pickup trucks, and large cars out of the marketplace, and provide incentives to their citizens to drive small cars.

Yes, they should, France has fuel standards of 46mpg on new cars thanks to tax policy.

3) Transfer clean power generation technologies to the developing countries free of cost.

China already makes the world's cheapest solar panels, they should sell those all over the developing world with carbon credits the other nations will earn. It will put hundreds of thousands of Chinese to work and bring billions in revenue.

4) Create a several trillion dollar global fund to help developing countries make the switch from coal plants to clean power plants.

Problem is, China doesn't really want to do it. With coal, they can be self sufficient with energy supply, with nuclear they have to rely on uranium supplies that France, Russia, and Australia control.

The problem is that the west has grown too accustomed to the luxuries that its high carbon consumption lifestyle provides. It's time to take responsibility for your actions, and time to stop blaming others for them.

If you are talking to Americans, I whole-heartedly agree. The French have already given up most of the carbon emitting lifestyle and are taking hard measures to continue our gains. It isn't the US that is pushing this summit but France.

 

[stax]

I think developed countries should transfer their energy-saving tech freely to developing countries like China and India. This will highly reduce the carbon emisson!

 

[S.A.T.A]

No matter who sabotaged,the fact is India is not unhappy with current stalemate with the climate issue.India probably was hoping someone would sabotage it for us.The fact even though the govt as announced voluntary emission cuts,everyone knows Indian will never be able to realistically meet those targets given our current rate of economic expansion,meeting those targets based on our current energy-economic infrastructure would mean significant reduction in economic growth rate and enormous expenditure incurred on overhauling the existing system.We don't have the money for that kind of thing nor are the rich countries willing to hare that burden..

Moreover with more an more countries joining the economic globalization bandwagon,which means more pollution inducing economies being added to the current list,what ever emission cuts targets we take upon ourselves will not be enough,more demand will be placed on us.While the climate crisis is real,but India cannot act alone and until the world decides to act together we need to continue our economic expansion at whatever the climate cost.

This is why we opposed any sort of verification mechanism to asses our progress in implementing effective emission cuts.while some cuts can achieved,but the goal set by the govt is just hogwash.