China's J-20 stealth fighter ready for combat in 2019 | Defense Update

[airtel]

bhai logon please stop trolling ...........


@j20 ..... canards are purposely included in the design of J20 it will reduce the stealthiness of J20 but still it is just a minor issue , the main problem is engine of J20 .
The Chinese has a project based on the WS 10 to develop a improved version of AL 31 F, they concentrating the WS 15 engine to power the J 20, as per some leaked reports, Janes says the power output of the new engines is just 80 Kilo newtons means twin engine provide some 160 kN, which is rated less powerful engine in the fifth generation fighter category.
if Chinese are using WS 10 that means j20 has less range & limited load caring capacity .
China's J-20 fighters cannot super-cruise or fly at supersonic speeds without using after-burners , After-burners remove warplane's stealthiness,

Still i'm impressed with the fast track development .

 

[airtel]

Hi.

China is deploying the J-20 this year in 2016. May I know when will India's PMF(Perspective Multi-role Fighter) be inducted?

1)"The latest images (December 2015) indicated that a new J-20 in yellow primer was builtwhich is likely to be the first LRIP model (2101). First flight took place on January 18, 2016. More LRIP J-20s are being built in 2016, at least 4 (2101-2104) by July 2016, wearing a gray color scheme and low-visibility PLAAF insignias. The first batch is expected to enter the service with PLAAF by the end of 2016 (S/N 40x4x?). In the meantime J-20 prototypes have been undergoing weapon launch tests including lunching PL-15 AAMs."

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.sg/

2)"The deal opens the prospect of producing 250 FGFAs to replace the multirole Sukhoi-30MKI fighter, according to the source in India’s Ministry of Defence as quoted by Business Standard.

The 2008 deal is projected to cost each country $6 billion, adjusted for inflation. India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics and Russia’s Sukhoi have agreed to cut costs by 40 percent to $4 billion each over seven years.(Does this means PMF's earliest deployment date would be in 2023?)

The countries will invest $1 billion in the first year and another $500 million in each of the following six years.

In the meantime, India is negotiating with France on buying 36 multirole Rafale fighters for a price yet to be negotiated. French President Francois Hollande arrives in Delhi on Monday to sort out the financial details.2"

https://www.rt.com/business/330026-india-russia-fighter-aircraft/

Also, China's 2nd fighter jet project, the J-31 might enter production earliest by 2019(just 3 years away). Pakistan seems to be interested in procuring this fighter. Would India's PMF be able to enter IOC on time?

3)"The actual prototype was expected to fly during the second half of 2016. If ordered now by a foreign customer,FC-31 could enter the production as early as 2019 and achieve IOC in 2022. A recent rumor suggested that the second FC-31 prototype started taxi test on April 30, 2016. The latest rumor claimed that the 01 prototype powered by two indigenous WS-13E turbofan engines flew for the first time on July 1, 2016."

hello eldermari single pilot version of Paka-fa is already have been undergoing weapon launch tests .
http://www.janes.com/article/59509/russian-pak-fa-carries-out-intensive-weapon-testing


and the news about contract between sukhoi & Hal ........is related to twin pilot version of PAk FA , that will be developed around 2023 . it is a different fighter plane .

sukhoi 30 mki would be upgraded into super sukhoi .

meanwhile we are also developing 5th generation fighter plane AMCA .

i think GOI want 36 rafals for Aircraft carriers or they want french help in developing 5th generation turbofan engines for AMCA .

 

[J20!]

bhai logon please stop trolling ...........


@j20 ..... canards are purposely included in the design of J20 it will reduce the stealthiness of J20 but still it is just a minor issue , the main problem is engine of J20 .
The Chinese has a project based on the WS 10 to develop a improved version of AL 31 F, they concentrating the WS 15 engine to power the J 20, as per some leaked reports, Janes says the power output of the new engines is just 80 Kilo newtons means twin engine provide some 160 kN, which is rated less powerful engine in the fifth generation fighter category.
if Chinese are using WS 10 that means j20 has less range & limited load caring capacity .
China's J-20 fighters cannot super-cruise or fly at supersonic speeds without using after-burners , After-burners remove warplane's stealthiness,

Still i'm impressed with the fast track development .

Nice analysis. I think you hit the nail on the head on the engine issue. Canards are a non-issue.

http://aviationweek.com/zhuhai-2014/j-20-stealth-fighter-design-balances-speed-and-agility

If you look at the placement of J20's wings you'll notice they are placed so far back, that its wing roots begin just fore of the engine bays. That's further back than any other modern fighter.

The most likely reason for this, as Bill Sweetman says, is the J20 has been designed for high speed performance without the benefits of high-thrust engines. Until the WS15 is integrated on the air-frame, it will have to rely on the latest iteration of the AL 31F as you said. Whether or not it can super-cruise on AL 31F's, I honestly don't know, but it will still have far better acceleration and high speed performance than the SU30 series based on aerodynamics alone.

And whenever the WS15 comes online... *wolf-whistle... Its supercruise capabilities will be veeeeery interesting to see.

That's much more than can be said of the F35, which is said to be inferior in kinematic performance to the F16.

The J20 - undeniably - is a work in progress. But the fact that it has transitioned to LRIP can only be a good thing for the PLAAF. It can now develop tactics for 5th gen vs 4th gen engagements as well as 5th gen vs 5th gen tactics.

Final engine configuration or not, that's a big boon to the PLAAF's effectiveness vs peer-competitors.

 

[airtel]

Nice analysis. I think you hit the nail on the head on the engine issue. Canards are a non-issue.

http://aviationweek.com/zhuhai-2014/j-20-stealth-fighter-design-balances-speed-and-agility

If you look at the placement of J20's wings you'll notice they are placed so far back, that its wing roots begin just fore of the engine bays. That's further back than any other modern fighter.

The most likely reason for this, as Bill Sweetman says, is the J20 has been designed for high speed performance without the benefits of high-thrust engines. Until the WS15 is integrated on the air-frame, it will have to rely on the latest iteration of the AL 31F as you said. Whether or not it can super-cruise on AL 31F's, I honestly don't know, but it will still have far better acceleration and high speed performance than the SU30 series based on aerodynamics alone.

And whenever the WS15 comes online... *wolf-whistle... Its supercruise capabilities will be veeeeery interesting to see.

That's much more than can be said of the F35, which is said to be inferior in kinematic performance to the F16.

The J20 - undeniably - is a work in progress. But the fact that it has transitioned to LRIP can only be a good thing for the PLAAF. It can now develop tactics for 5th gen vs 4th gen engagements as well as 5th gen vs 5th gen tactics.

Final engine configuration or not, that's a big boon to the PLAAF's effectiveness vs peer-competitors.

the fact that it has transitioned to LRIP shows that Chinese are Afraid of US presence in SCS .
and they started the production of Under-powered J 20 to somewhat reduce the american edge .

The intended powerplant for the J-20 is believed to be the WS-15, an engine in the 44,000-pound-thrust (197-kN) class but at present J-20s have the improved AL-31FN Series 3 engine offering 30,800 pounds (137 kN) of thrust , the difference is too large to neglect for heavy plane like J 20 .


Few months ago China concluded a deal to purchase two-dozen advanced Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E fighters from Russia, which are equipped with a pair of powerful NPO Saturn AL-41F1S afterburning turbofans.
Russia will not export its ToT on their engines, so in any case what China will do with their 117S engine is limited , China may hope to harvest the technology from the AL-41F1S to further its own engine development, however the new Russian engine—which is an upgraded development of the earlier AL-31F—has proven to be less than satisfactory for Moscow’s own PAK-FA development.
The Russians are pursuing a new engine tentatively called izdeliye 30 for installation on a future PAK-FA production standard aircraft as a solution to the problem. Thus, it is unclear if the AL-41F1S will solve your engine woes .

Again comparison of F-35 & J-20 is wrong , they have comparably free media & there was many countries involved in the F-35 project so information about failures & success of project is available in media on the other hand Chinese media is controlled by your Government so any Information about your product is not trust worthy .

and the main power of F-35 is it's Highly advanced Avionics & EWS .................Chinese are far behind .

 

[sayareakd]

great achievement for Chinese, they got their 5g fighter inducted before the US or Russian fighter (exception is F22). BTW how come other are doing all the tests and Chinese have completed all in this record time ?

Surely our DRDO-HAL should also learn few things from you guys, specially how to remain in time.

 

[airtel]

No, my question is when will India's PMF(Perspective Multi-role Fighter) be inducted?(not whatsoever weapons testing and taxing it the the Russian variant has to go through in its development phase).

Or to put it blantly, when will the Indian Airforce be able to start deploying the FGFA, which has now been designated as the PMF program


"During the annual India-Russia summit, which took place in late December 2015 in Moscow, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi failed to resolve an ongoing disagreement between the two countries over the future of a joint fifth generation fighter program.

India and Russia in early 2007 signed an intergovernmental agreement to co-develop a fifth generation fighter–the Sukhol/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) or as it known in India, the Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF). The aircraft will be a multi-role, single seat, twin-engine air superiority/deep air support fighter with stealth capabilities and is based on the Sukhoi PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) T-50 prototype, currently undergoing flight tests in Russia.

Ever since 2007, however, the weapons program has experienced various setbacks.

Delays were caused by New Delhi and Moscow disagreeing over many fundamental aspects of the joint development project including work and cost share, aircraft technology, as well as the number of aircraft to be ordered. After evaluating the first PAK FA T-50 prototype, the Indian Air Force (IAF) wanted more than 40 changes addressing, among other things, perceived weaknesses in the plane’s engine, stealth and weapon-carrying capabilities.

While a preliminary $295 million design contract was signed in 2010, the final design contract under which both sides agreed to contribute each $6 billion for design and production and which also included a fixed order of 154 aircraft, a compromise on work share, a firm commitment to the number of single- versus double-seat aircraft still has not been signed to date. (Even though the head of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) announced last June that a full R&D collaboration contract would be signed in 2015.)

As I reported before, the fifth generation fighter jet was slated to be introduced into the Indian Air Force by 2022. Russia was supposed to receive 250 aircraft, whereas India downgraded its initial purchasing size from 200 to 144 planes in 2012 at an estimated total cost of $30 billion. However in late 2015, Russian Deputy Minister Yuri Borisov announced that the Russian Air Force would only purchase a squadron (18-24 aircraft) of PAK FA fighter jets, and procure additional Sukhoi Su-35 aircraft instead.

The announcement apparently finally made India lose faith in the program. Last month, Russia tried to salvage the joint project by making India an offer to cut down its financial contribution from 6 to $ 3.7 billion for three PAK FA T-50 prototypes and technology transfers, The Indian Express reported.

“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior Indian defense official told the paper.

However, a senior IAF official told the paper that the air force remains skeptical: “We are not in favor of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”

The meeting between President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi was supposed to lead to some sort of compromise, but without even a revised signed design contract the project’s future will remain in limbo.

Meanwhile, the Russia’s Defense Ministry announced that the PAK FA T-50 prototype has “practically completed” flight tests and will be inducted into the Russian Air and Space Force in 2017. So far, four PAK FA T-50 prototypes, along with two test beds of the fighter, have been delivered by Sukhoi to the Russian military and are currently undergoing extensive testing. Three more prototypes are expected to be delivered in early 2016.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/01/indi...ve-dispute-over-fifth-generation-fighter-jet/

Which then leads back to the very first source i linked on the PMF(by the Russian news outlet source https://www.rt.com/business/330026-india-russia-fighter-aircraft/ ):

"The deal opens the prospect of producing 250 FGFAs to replace the multirole Sukhoi-30MKI fighter, according to the source in India’s Ministry of Defence as quoted by Business Standard.

The 2008 deal is projected to cost each country $6 billion, adjusted for inflation. India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics and Russia’s Sukhoi have agreed to cut costs by 40 percent to $4 billion each over seven years. <=== does this means the earliest possible date for the production of the first batch of PMF would begin in 2023?

The countries will invest $1 billion in the first year and another $500 million in each of the following six years."


So If im reading it right, the latest status update of the India's FGFA aka PMF program is that R & D phase will take place over 7 years, costing 4 billion dollars after the revised contract is signed(in 2016?) that means 2023 is the earliest production date for the PMF?

At present India is Involved in India is Involved in 3 , 5th Generation fighter plane projects , Pak-Fa , AMCA & FGFA and one stealth Unmanned bomber = AURA .

this article is related to FGFA .which is still on the paper so it will take time to Induct FGFA ..............
however pak-fa will be inducted in IAF within 2-3 years .

and i think FGFA will be inducted around 2027-28 .

there is nothing like Russian variant & Indian variant , IAF will operate PAK-FA as well as FGFA along with AMCA .
all of the them are 5th generation Multi-role stealth Fighters but their weight categories are different .

 

[AnantS]

Thank you for your answers.

'however pak-fa will be inducted in IAF within 2-3 years .' <===== Do you have any links to source(s) that India will induct the PAK-FA(which is a single seat stealth jet built using the T-50 as its prototype and is intended for the Russian Air Force, where else the twin-seat FGFA program aka PMF is the spinoff/export variant(of PAK FA) that is intended for India and is modified to suit India's requirements(more than 43 modifications)?

FGFA is PAK-FA MKI. Single Seat. That is India will try to substitute some of Russian equipment with Western or Indian ones. There will be no external design change per say from Pak-FA

 

[airtel]

Thank you for your answers.

'however pak-fa will be inducted in IAF within 2-3 years .' <===== Do you have any links to source(s) that India will induct the PAK-FA(which is a single seat stealth jet built using the T-50 as its prototype and is intended for the Russian Air Force, where else the twin-seat FGFA program aka PMF is the spinoff/export variant(of PAK FA) that is intended for India and is modified to suit India's requirements(more than 43 modifications)?

http://www.forceindia.net/SinglesOnly.aspx

http://thediplomat.com/2012/10/india-snubs-russia-on-fifth-generation-fighters/

it was the original plan to Induct 200 sukhoi T-50 (including 48 , 2 seat versions ) according to article above India bought 144 single seat Pak-fa in 2012 & 2 seat version was canceled .

but in 2016 , the process to develop 2 seat version was restarted .

and Russia is testing 6th generation components too >> http://thediplomat.com/2012/10/india-snubs-russia-on-fifth-generation-fighters/

http://www.defencenow.com/news/312/...ussian-fifth-generation-t-50-fighter-jet.html


according to the article above India plans to induct the fighter jets by 2017.

Sukhoi T-50 has completed trails and still has year or so to be inducted into Russian Airforce. So according to my guess India will probably get its first of T-50's around 2017/18 and 2 seat version version FGFA to be into development stage around 2018.
So in conclusion,India will have operational Sukhoi T-50 squadrons(around 5) around 2025 and start inducting first of FGFA around 2026.
meanwhile AMCA will be developed too .

 

[HariPrasad-1]

great achievement for Chinese, they got their 5g fighter inducted before the US or Russian fighter (exception is F22). BTW how come other are doing all the tests and Chinese have completed all in this record time ?

Surely our DRDO-HAL should also learn few things from you guys, specially how to remain in time.

Giving some specific shapes do not make a fifth generation fighter. It really need to be stealth it should have high maneuvers, fifth generation plane engine, radars and weapon system. J 20 has neither of this.

 

[Yumdoot]

Hi, Yumdoot.

Could you expand on "there has hardly been any input on J-20"? I have an idea of what you mean, and I was about to reply but maybe I'm lost. Could you explain a bit more?

Your people have not come out in the open about the details as much as the Russians, Americans and even Indians are.

So the whole analysis revolves around what is visible or known with certainty.

For example, the shaping, stealth and aerodynamics.

I agree canards on their own are not too much of a trouble but there are caveats to that. The canards won't cause trouble from the front aspect. The problem for you is that the Radar and IRSTs are all volume search capable. They will seek out the same kind of range in all directions. OTOH the plane simply has to manage its best LO aspect (frontal). From other sides no LO/VLO plane is going to be as stealthy as the brochure and forum talk admit.

Then your people compromised again by putting those ventral strakes/fins. That by itself acts as a nice radar reflector from the side. Your pilots will have decide if they want to hide those strakes if the radar is flanking the planes. And if he tries to hide the strakes he either ends up changing course or may be show up a different corner reflector with its canted stabilizers. I don't know how desperate a need those strakes were. Your J-31 doesn't have those, AMCA won't either, none of the already flying 5th Gen planes do. But J-20 does. Everybody is trying desperately to reduce the number of control surfaces. The J-20 engineers instead increase them. Who puts in so many control surfaces all at different angles in a supposedly stealthy plane.

Same is the case of canards. Su-30MKI has them but only as a stop gap measure. The Su-35S made improvements in power, FBW, TWR and TVC and as a result are able to drop canards altogether. Now true the J-20 canards will not be a problem if the frontal aspect is presented but then in real world missions it is going to use them and those wings and canards with edges at two different levels will cause an unpredictable reflection.

In general there is little attention to conformal stealth in J-20. The radar waves will be reflected away, I agree, but in several different planes. Ideal for Bistatic/Multistatic detection.

I am sorry but a J-20 is going to be LO only in the attack mode. That may sound too kung-fu-ishly hexy but that is crazy.

The counter LO/VLO tactics for SAMs is to approach their target in a "doglegged" trajectory such that the onboard sensors can get the biggest billboard or the side view of the targeted LO aircraft. This is by now a well understood concept of operations. But if its a good Conops for SAMs with their piddly little sensors then what would you say about a whole aircraft with 4/6 AAMs using the same tactic. Should your people send in the J-20 over the Himalayas to try to establish air superiority, I will just have to send in LCAs with from 2/3 different vectors, all launched from the Advanced Landing Grounds. Quick Reaction and difficult to manage pack of Dingos.

In fact I am much more afraid of your J-10s. Because they too can sort of do what the LCA does. Most likely the J-20s will end up so expensive that your people will field them opposite the Taiwan Straits, against carrier led aircrafts, which coincidently don't have the right kinematics or even aerodynamics in some cases, to take on the J-20, unlike the LCA. And a pack of LCAs backed up by an L-Band FGFA with easy access to several bases, will be simply impossible to handle.

You are right some of the people here are cussing J-20 only because they love the JSF too much or perhaps they don't know how to understand / react to the J-20 simpliciter. The trouble for them is that J-20 has more than enough volume (something we have learnt to respect the hard way) to host a lot of future tech. J-20 may end up outfoxing the JSF in the Strike missions and do that comprehensively while also sporting more than a significant edge in air-to-air combat. As I often say - there is a second mover advantage too. You don't have to repeat the other guy's mistakes. Americans made their JSF too small to be good for anything. They ideally should have persisted with F-22 iterations. Bad choice.

J-31 looks more like a - made for Pakistan 5th Gen. No access to esoteric and expensive gizmos. Not much room for growth. Defensive plane.

Hope your people standardize around J-10s and J-20s at the earliest. It will force our people, to up their game, as well.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Your people have not come out in the open about the details as much as the Russians, Americans and even Indians are.

So the whole analysis revolves around what is visible or known with certainty.

For example, the shaping, stealth and aerodynamics.

I agree canards on their own are not too much of a trouble but there are caveats to that. The canards won't cause trouble from the front aspect. The problem for you is that the Radar and IRSTs are all volume search capable. They will seek out the same kind of range in all directions. OTOH the plane simply has to manage its best LO aspect (frontal). From other sides no LO/VLO plane is going to be as stealthy as the brochure and forum talk admit.

Then your people compromised again by putting those ventral strakes/fins. That by itself acts as a nice radar reflector from the side. Your pilots will have decide if they want to hide those strakes if the radar is flanking the planes. And if he tries to hide the strakes he either ends up changing course or may be show up a different corner reflector with its canted stabilizers. I don't know how desperate a need those strakes were. Your J-31 doesn't have those, AMCA won't either, none of the already flying 5th Gen planes do. But J-20 does. Everybody is trying desperately to reduce the number of control surfaces. The J-20 engineers instead increase them. Who puts in so many control surfaces all at different angles in a supposedly stealthy plane.

Same is the case of canards. Su-30MKI has them but only as a stop gap measure. The Su-35S made improvements in power, FBW, TWR and TVC and as a result are able to drop canards altogether. Now true the J-20 canards will not be a problem if the frontal aspect is presented but then in real world missions it is going to use them and those wings and canards with edges at two different levels will cause an unpredictable reflection.

In general there is little attention to conformal stealth in J-20. The radar waves will be reflected away, I agree, but in several different planes. Ideal for Bistatic/Multistatic detection.

I am sorry but a J-20 is going to be LO only in the attack mode. That may sound too kung-fu-ishly hexy but that is crazy.

The counter LO/VLO tactics for SAMs is to approach their target in a "doglegged" trajectory such that the onboard sensors can get the biggest billboard or the side view of the targeted LO aircraft. This is by now a well understood concept of operations. But if its a good Conops for SAMs with their piddly little sensors then what would you say about a whole aircraft with 4/6 AAMs using the same tactic. Should your people send in the J-20 over the Himalayas to try to establish air superiority, I will just have to send in LCAs with from 2/3 different vectors, all launched from the Advanced Landing Grounds. Quick Reaction and difficult to manage pack of Dingos.

In fact I am much more afraid of your J-10s. Because they too can sort of do what the LCA does. Most likely the J-20s will end up so expensive that your people will field them opposite the Taiwan Straits, against carrier led aircrafts, which coincidently don't have the right kinematics or even aerodynamics in some cases, to take on the J-20, unlike the LCA. And a pack of LCAs backed up by an L-Band FGFA with easy access to several bases, will be simply impossible to handle.

You are right some of the people here are cussing J-20 only because they love the JSF too much or perhaps they don't know how to understand / react to the J-20 simpliciter. The trouble for them is that J-20 has more than enough volume (something we have learnt to respect the hard way) to host a lot of future tech. J-20 may end up outfoxing the JSF in the Strike missions and do that comprehensively while also sporting more than a significant edge in air-to-air combat. As I often say - there is a second mover advantage too. You don't have to repeat the other guy's mistakes. Americans made their JSF too small to be good for anything. They ideally should have persisted with F-22 iterations. Bad choice.

J-31 looks more like a - made for Pakistan 5th Gen. No access to esoteric and expensive gizmos. Not much room for growth. Defensive plane.

Hope your people standardize around J-10s and J-20s at the earliest. It will force our people, to up their game, as well.

Hey who are you? Such an in depth knowledge in this area? Are you related to Air force?