China's J-15 Carrier-Based Fighter is Inferior to Russian Su-33 fighter: Russia

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Yatharth Singh, Jun 5, 2010.

  1. Yatharth Singh

    Yatharth Singh Regular Member

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    [​IMG]

    China's J-15 carrier-based fighter will not be able to compete with Russia's Su-33 fighter on global markets because it is inferior to the Russian aircraft, a Russian military analyst said on Friday.

    China since 2001 has been developing the J-15 naval fighter, which is believed to be a clone of Russia's Su-33 Falcon-D. China bought an Su-33 prototype earlier from Ukraine, and used it to develop the new aircraft.The J-15 is expected to be stationed initially onboard the Chinese Varyag aircraft carrier currently being fitted in the port of Dalian. China bought the unfinished Admiral Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier from Ukraine in 1998.

    "The Chinese J-15 clone is unlikely to achieve the same performance characteristics of the Russian Su-33 carrier-based fighter, and I do not rule out the possibility that China could return to negotiations with Russia on the purchase of a substantial batch of Su-33s," said Col. (Ret.) Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Defense Ministry's Public Council.

    The Su-33 is a carrier-based multi-role fighter, which can perform a variety of air superiority, fleet defense, air support and reconnaissance missions. The aircraft entered service with the Russian Navy in 1995 and are currently deployed on board the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier.

    Korotchenko said China was unlikely to solve technical problems related to the design of the folding wings and to develop a reliable engine for the aircraft, although the first J-15 prototype reportedly made its maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered by Chinese WS-10 turbofan engines.China and Russia had been in negotiations on the sale of the Su-33 Flanker-D fighters to be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers since 2006, but the talks collapsed over China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial."

    Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

    The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced at least 95 aircraft.Last year, Russia refused again to sell the Su-33 to China even after Beijing had offered to buy 14 of them, saying that at least 24 jets should be sold to recoup production costs.
    RIA Novosti
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2010
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  3. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    China Creates Pirate Copy of Russia’s Su-33 Fighter Jet

    [​IMG]

    The Market Oracle - 6/5/2010

    China’s Shenyang Aircraft Corporation created a copy of a Russian deck-based Su-33 fighter jet. The Chinese model of the aircraft was called J-15, Interfax reports with reference to the May issue of the Kanwa Asian Defence military publication.

    The Chinese fighter jet is based on the Soviet T10K training aircraft, which China received from Ukraine. Chinese engineers found it very difficult to solve the problem of folding wings of deck-based fighter jets. Now the problem has been solved.

    It is not clear yet, if the new plane has performed its first flight yet: the Chinese Air Force does not have its own test center for the sea aviation.

    Vietnam buys 12 Sukhoi fighters

    China earlier attempted to purchase two Su-33 planes from Russia to study the aircraft performance. Moscow rejected the deal over the fear of technology leak, as it previously happened with the J-11 aircraft, RBC reports.

    When trying to enter the Chinese arms market, Russia handed over the assembly technology for the Su-27CK fighter jet to China. As a result, China modernized the plane and began to work on a serial production of the J-11 plane. Such a step can give China an opportunity to put competitive pressure on Russia on the arms market of third countries, experts said.

    Russia started delivering Su-27CK planes to China in 1992. The sides signed an agreement for 76 fighters of the class. In 1995, Russia sold the license for the production of 200 more fighters. China’s Shenyang Aircraft Corporation started assembling them as J-11 with the use of Russian components.

    By 2003 Russia had delivered 95 packages for J-11 and was supposed to ship 105 more, although China did not sign the contract for them. In 2007, China demonstrated first prototypes of the J-11B jet – nearly the absolute copy of Russia’s Su-27CMK.

    For the time being, China has launched the serial production of J-10, J-11 and FC-1 fighter jets. These planes bear a striking resemblance to Russia’s Su-27/30 and MiG-29. In the nearest future, China intends to build and sell not less than 1,200 fighters – the prices on them will be significantly lower than those on the Russian “originals.”

    After the incident with J-11, Russia officially notified China of the violation of international agreements and promised to launch legal proceedings to defend its intellectual property.

    China is not the only country that established the pirated production based on Russian technologies. Russia’s defense export giant Rosoboronexport said that over 15 countries (including Bulgaria, Romania, Egypt) produce Kalashnikov assault rifles either on expired licenses or without any license at all. Arms pirates also eye multiple artillery rocket systems, tank equipment and radars.

    The Sukhoi Su-33 (NATO reporting name: Flanker-D) is a carrier-based multi-role fighter aircraft produced by Russian firm Sukhoi beginning in 1982. It is a derivative of the Su-27 ‘Flanker’ and was initially known as the Su-27K. The main differences from the Su-27 are that the Su-33 can operate from aircraft carriers and is capable of aerial refueling.

    Unlike comparable American carrier-borne fighters like the F-14 Tomcat, the Su-33 uses a ski-jump instead of catapult for carrier takeoff. Using the ski-jump avoids the high catapult-induced loads, and provides the aircraft with a positive pitch and climb angle upon launch. However, when using a ski-jump, the Su-33 cannot launch at maximum takeoff weight.

    The Su-33 sports canards that shorten the take-off distance and improve maneuverability, but required reshaping of the leading edge extensions. The canards counter pitch-down force generated by leading and trailing edge flaps reducing approach speed by 1.5 times; they also act as destabilizers in supersonic flight, by reducing pitch trim drag. The wing area was also increased, though the span remained unchanged. The wings were fitted with power-assisted folding, and the vertical tails were shortened to allow the fighter to fit in the typically crowded hangars of an aircraft carrier. The rear radome was shortened and reshaped to allow for the tail hook, as well as to save space inside the hangars. The IRST was moved to provide better downward visibility and an L-shaped retractable refuelling probe was fitted to increase range.





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  4. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    China and espionage, perfidy and pilferage have almost become synonyms
     
  5. AJSINGH

    AJSINGH Senior Member Senior Member

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    huh , china has not left anything to copy illegaly , from iphone to Hindu Gods Idol to weapons .
     
  6. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    As I know, J15 has no canards=xD
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2010
  7. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Chinese plan to sell 1,200 of these copies?? That's 1200 less planes that Russians will sell. This is a wake up call for Russia.
     
  8. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    See there's a lot that Russia can do. It's obvious that the buyers of Chinese military hardware would be the present customers for Russian arms. Planes form a fraction of those purchases. There are missiles, guns, tanks, ammunition, radars, and a host of other assorted equipment. China cannot copy or reverse engineer all of them. All Russia needs to do is to sent subtle hints on the impact such purchases could have on future relations with Russian federation. I am not sure many countries would be that eager to cozy upto China at the cost of forgoing future supplies for their present stocks. Russians can play hardball when they want to, as we have found out on more than one occasion.
     
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  9. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    I dare Russia will do noting, when it comes to long time sense or vision. US is main rival to Russia, when China is countering US, Russia would just sit quiet.
    after all the Russian politicians are same as Indian politicians, they can be made shut by Money, China has it a lot.
    Russia always has long term vision, it will or wont take any action against China, maximum officially protest.
    China has been doing this for past 30-40yrs right from Mig-17,19,21.
    Russia nor Great Soviet Union did noting, noting is going to happen.
    waste of space on thread on this forum, just lock it or delete it.
    pardon me guys......
    i apology to every one who hurt with my comments.
     
  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Su33 itself is too heavy for carrier operations. J15 will be obsolete carrier fighter. What's with this numbers? 1200! Is China selling PAK carrier after/if they get theirs? Su33/J15 is a carrier fighter of yesterday. World has moved on..
     
  11. Yatharth Singh

    Yatharth Singh Regular Member

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    Thats the big mistake China is doing that it is making a prototype of SU 33. Of course it will be posted on china`s first aircraft carrier but what`s so hurry in that. I don`t expect this from a country like china that it is making a carrier based fighter similar to the old su 33. Maybe China must have any strategical reason behind it but i think that china is focusing more on its sale rather that its performance and strength.
     
  12. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    where did you get this number?
     
  13. BunBunCake

    BunBunCake Regular Member

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    LF, even the whole US's aircraft carriers combined don't use these many planes :p
    Who's it going to sell 1,200 to??? Pakistan? :p
     
  14. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    PLAN can keep 300-600 (speculation) of them in their land based fighter inventory. Later variants can be forced down to PLAAF's throat. PAK & a**-licking nations can keep the remaining copied outdated fighters.
     
  15. BunBunCake

    BunBunCake Regular Member

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    ROFL.
    What use does Pakistan have for a Carrier Aircraft?
     
  16. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I don't know yet. But maybe they'll need carrier to kill & destroy terrorists hiding in oceans...
    But seriously, we shouldn't be surprised if PRC wants to gift Pak a carrier with J-15s after they learns to build them for themselves 10 yrs* down the line.





    *Conditions applied: Pak survives as a state.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2010
  17. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    China Eats Russia Alive
    [​IMG]

    June 14, 2010: After years of having their military technology blatantly stolen by China, Russia is no longer selling them much of anything. In addition, the state controlled Russian media is now featuring lots of pundits deploring the low performance of the Chinese arms industry, and how poorly they have copied Russian military technology. A recent flurry of reports disparaged Chinese attempts to copy the Russian Su-33 (an aircraft carrier version of the Su-27). This all rings hollow when you consider how the Chinese have already caught up with a lot of Russian military manufacturers, and are driving them out of business in some areas.

    For example, using stolen Russian technology, China is driving Russia out of the low-end weapons business. In turn, Russian attempts to maintain their status as a major developer of military technology are fumbling, largely because of the sales stolen by China. Increasingly, China is undercutting Russian sales efforts with similar weapons containing lots of stolen Russian technology. The Chinese won't invest as much in developing new technology, and the Russians can no longer afford to. So the second tier weapons markets slide further into mediocrity.

    Through most (1960s-80s) of the Cold War, Russia (Soviet Union) had a well financed arms industry. Many innovative weapons were developed, but all this effort was hobbled by the fact that the Russian economy as a whole was very inefficient, and Russian industry could not build high tech as well, or reliably, as Western firms. Thus Russian high-tech gear always came in second to Western counterparts.

    When the Cold War ended, so did the lavish spending on the Russian defense industries. Many, actually over half, of these weapons manufacturers went bankrupt, or converted to non-military production. Those that survived, did so by exporting weapons. Throughout the 1990s, the Russian armed forces could not afford to buy much new stuff. China came to the rescue in the 1990s, and over the next decade, bought nearly $20 billion in Russian arms. But China also began to blatantly copy lots of the Russian tech, and build their own. Thus, not surprisingly, for the last five years, Chinese orders have shrunk, while production of copies of Russian tech have increased. In some cases, Russia has simply refused to sell China high tech stuff, to avoid having it copied.

    In the 1990s, Chinese manufacturing capabilities were so far behind that Russia believed their lead would never disappear. But with Russian military manufacturing largely stalled for the last two decades, and the Chinese economy booming (over 10 percent growth per year), the Russians are horrified to realize that the Chinese are catching up, and fast. For example, China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five (or so) years. Currently, China imports two Russian engines, the $3.5 million AL-31 (for the Su-27/30, J-11, J-10) and the $2.5 million RD-93 (a version of the MiG-29s RD-33) for the JF-17 (a F-16 type aircraft developed in cooperation with Pakistan.) But in the meantime, Chinese engineers have managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, is part of a program that has also developed the WS13, to replace the RD-93.

    China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did when developing their own engine design and construction skills. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made, and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades.

    It is true, as the Russians like to point out, that the Chinese have taken a long time to develop some of their latest high-tech weapons (like the J-10 and JF-17 jet fighters, jet engines and many missile and electronic systems). But that's because the Chinese regarded these projects as learning exercises, and have not produced the resulting aircraft in large numbers. The Chinese use what they have learned for the next project, and they have made a lot of progress in two decades. China has already demonstrated an ability to build (and copy) world class technology. They now have the largest automobile industry on the planet. China can build things, and build them well. They learn from their mistakes, and they are surpassing their long time Russian mentors. The Russians know this is true, but they don't want to admit it.




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  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    The problem for Russia now becomes developing new platforms with decreasing revenues from older platforms. Since Russia no longer sells to China they have lost that revenue and whatever is sold is copied and resold by China. Developing the next platform will take longer for the Russians and the Chinese are now undercutting them in platforms they have copied thru predatory pricing this is a bad lesson for Russia and one they won't forget for a long time. The good part is no matter how much Chinese claim they have advanced they still have not progressed beyond 3rd generation planes, which is also a low demand market.
     
  19. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Russia needs to expediate in carrier fighter operation aggressively. The longer they take, larger the gap will be in carrier fighter development. If china or any country copies Su27/30 it doesn't much affect Russians because they have lot of tech steadily developing in land based fighters. But when it comes to carrier operations, they have not moved anything after '91. China will eat this share with whichever customers it might find.

    China has not moved beyond 3rd Gen planes but I feel it'll take some time when China will find the breakthroughs they are missing cause of which they are lagging. At that time, Russia/India should have moved higher in the respective development or the severe market share loss & superiority attenuation will be eventual.

    As for J-15, its an outdated carrier fighter but good for China when it is operating carrier for the first time.
     
  20. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Russia is still the main supplier of Chinese aircraft engines, parts and naval radars, worth $1.4 billion a year. From 2000 to 2009 Russia sold $16 billion in arms to China, that comes to an average of $1.7 billion a year. That is not such a drastic decline. Russia sold $8.8 billion worth of arms in 2009, China hardly breaks even with net arms exports. Most of those go to Pakistan, a market Russia has refused to enter.

    Russian arms sales have doubled since 2000 as well as China, but Russia's sales are so far above China it isn't cutting into much of anything. The Chinese have faced just as many setbacks as Russia, the recent cancellation of tank sales to Peru and the loss to Russia in the Burma fighter competition show just how far China has yet to go. The hottest item China has going now is the K-8 trainer, but it doesn't run on domestic engines but on a Honeywell turbofan. The Al Khalid tank can't even be sold without permission of Ukraine. The FC-1 without permission of Russia. China does not have the independence to be considered a serious player on the international arms market. They are too dependent on foreign suppliers that compete against their sales push.

    There is nothing world class about Chinese technology. The automobile industry is dominated by foreign JVs. Chinese car exports only registered 369,000 in 2009, a 46% drop from the previous year. Most of which are cheap Chery QQs, that is not competing with anybody. China cannot make turbofans nor do they sell quality avionics. Pakistan wants French radars and missiles for the JF-17 while Burma passed for Russia's "so called" antiquated MiG-29 which is superior to Chinese fighters in every way. It is 30 years and still no turbofans out of China, 20 years since the collapse of the USSR and tank engines that still can't compete with Ukraine. No modern helicopter engines or even quality steel production. There is no surpassing of Russian technology going on yet.
     
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  21. tony4562

    tony4562 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Chinese economy is 4 times larger than Russia's and the gaping is growing. China is also churning out lots more engineers, scientists than Russia is, and is spending a lot more on research, if the current trend holds its just a matter of time before China catches up with Russia in every military technology. It is already happening, and the process is accelerating, that's probably the reason that India is now increasingly looking to the west for new weapons.

    Also if the current demographic trend holds, by 2100 russia will be roughly in the same rank as Canada or Australia as far as population goes, all sparsely populated countries that are almost completely dependent on raw materials. But of course by then, over half of russia's population could be muslims, that certainly will affect russia's fate a lot.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2010

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