China's first indigenous carrier CV17

J20!

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Every annual China Report to the US Congress says the same thing as the last...

"The PLAN continues to lack a robust deep-water ASW capability"

The fact your clone of the pre-1989 Thomson CSF sonars are the mainstay of your ASW capability says it all.
How exactly does the phrase "The PLAN continues to lack a robust deep-water ASW capability" translate to "one modern SSK can sink your entire task force"? Robust or not, the PLAN does have a deep-water ASW capability...

They been upgrading their ASW capability with new aerial and sea-borne platforms/sensors; I wouldn't scoff if I were u...
 
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Armand2REP

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How exactly does the phrase "The PLAN continues to lack a robust deep-water ASW capability" translate to "one modern SSK can sink your entire task force"? Robust or not, the PLAN does have a deep-water ASW capability...

They been upgrading their ASW capability with new aerial and sea-borne platforms/sensors; I wouldn't scoff if I were u...
It means exactly that when your task force enters deep water it can be easily destroyed by a stealthy SSK as you will never find it in the wide open ocean because you "continue to lack a robust deep-water ASW capability."

Do you have need for any more fill in the blanks? Go ahead... this is fun.
 

J20!

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A taskforce can number anywhere from 4-8 vessels. How exactly is a single SSK going to "easily destroy" that many surface and subsurface vessels before being sunk itself?

Yes, we've all noticed how trolling seems to amuse you to no end...
 

Armand2REP

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A taskforce can number anywhere from 4-8 vessels. How exactly is a single SSK going to "easily destroy" that many surface and subsurface vessels before being sunk itself?

Yes, we've all noticed how trolling seems to amuse you to no end...
A Scorpene with F21 Artemis would have no problem sinking the entire group at range. You would have no idea where they came from before detecting them with no chance of escape. With 6 tubes capable of salvo fire every ship would be crippled or sinking in the first round, the second salvo would finish it.
 

nongaddarliberal

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A Scorpene with F21 Artemis would have no problem sinking the entire group at range. You would have no idea where they came from before detecting them with no chance of escape. With 6 tubes capable of salvo fire every ship would be crippled or sinking in the first round, the second salvo would finish it.
If that's true I feel really good about India's scorpene purchase. :biggrin2:
 

J20!

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A Scorpene with F21 Artemis would have no problem sinking the entire group at range. You would have no idea where they came from before detecting them with no chance of escape. With 6 tubes capable of salvo fire every ship would be crippled or sinking in the first round, the second salvo would finish it.
Submerged, a Scorpene is a slow-moving conventional sub that would not be able to keep up with any carrier task-force in any open, deep-water scenario. Lacking AIP tech, a Scorpene wouldn't even be able to stay submerged long enough to lie in wait for said carrier task-force before ASW escorts screened the carrier's path...

If that were true vis-a-vis the Chinese Navy, then it would be true for every Navy. Versus the number of ASW platforms and sensors available to any Chinese Carrier task-force, what would stop the same happening to an Indian Carrier task-force, or a French carrier task-force, or even a US carrier task-force?
 

Armand2REP

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Submerged, a Scorpene is a slow-moving conventional sub that would not be able to keep up with any carrier task-force in any open, deep-water scenario. Lacking AIP tech, a Scorpene wouldn't even be able to stay submerged long enough to lie in wait for said carrier task-force before ASW escorts screened the carrier's path...

If that were true vis-a-vis the Chinese Navy, then it would be true for every Navy. Versus the number of ASW platforms and sensors available to any Chinese Carrier task-force, what would stop the same happening to an Indian Carrier task-force, or a French carrier task-force, or even a US carrier task-force?
Even without AIP a Scorpene can stay submerged over a week. It could snorkel at night and you wouldn't find it. The range of the F21 Artemis give a Scorpene commander many angles of engagement thanks to the systems incredible range and updates after launch. Chinese ships are incredibly noisy so the Scorpene captain will have a battle picture at plenty of range while remaining completely passive. Your ASW screen is useless against Scorpene which is more silent than the Rubis SSN which sunk the Eisenhower battle group. The Americans would have a difficult time engaging this submarine, you don't have a prayer. If it was using one of your crappy torpedoes it might have to get close enough to be discovered but with F21, it is game over.
 

jon jon jon

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Even without AIP a Scorpene can stay submerged over a week. It could snorkel at night and you wouldn't find it. The range of the F21 Artemis give a Scorpene commander many angles of engagement thanks to the systems incredible range and updates after launch. Chinese ships are incredibly noisy so the Scorpene captain will have a battle picture at plenty of range while remaining completely passive. Your ASW screen is useless against Scorpene which is more silent than the Rubis SSN which sunk the Eisenhower battle group. The Americans would have a difficult time engaging this submarine, you don't have a prayer. If it was using one of your crappy torpedoes it might have to get close enough to be discovered but with F21, it is game over.
Unfortunately, despite your high evaluation of the Scorpene sub, Malaysia, another user of Scorpene submarines are having huge operational problems with them. Mind you, Malaysian Navy culture is more regular maintenance and services oriented than their Indian counterpart. I think the Indian Navy should not put too much faith into such submarines and develop their own submarines befitting the environments of the surrounding waters (Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea, Andaman Sea and Bay of Bengal) and customizing them to such.
 

Pandeyji

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Mind you, Malaysian Navy culture is more regular maintenance and services oriented than their Indian counterpart.
Any sources apart from your own conviction? Would like to see what is so special about maintainence culture of Malaysian navy?
 

Armand2REP

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Unfortunately, despite your high evaluation of the Scorpene sub, Malaysia, another user of Scorpene submarines are having huge operational problems with them. Mind you, Malaysian Navy culture is more regular maintenance and services oriented than their Indian counterpart. I think the Indian Navy should not put too much faith into such submarines and develop their own submarines befitting the environments of the surrounding waters (Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea, Andaman Sea and Bay of Bengal) and customizing them to such.
If you would stop cutting your defence budgets and quit trying to blackmail your shipyards to get something for free you might not have such problems. Good to see BHIC beat the charges and the stock price skyrocketed back to where it belongs.
 

J20!

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Even without AIP a Scorpene can stay submerged over a week. It could snorkel at night and you wouldn't find it. The range of the F21 Artemis give a Scorpene commander many angles of engagement thanks to the systems incredible range and updates after launch. Chinese ships are incredibly noisy so the Scorpene captain will have a battle picture at plenty of range while remaining completely passive. Your ASW screen is useless against Scorpene which is more silent than the Rubis SSN which sunk the Eisenhower battle group. The Americans would have a difficult time engaging this submarine, you don't have a prayer. If it was using one of your crappy torpedoes it might have to get close enough to be discovered but with F21, it is game over.
The Scorpene's submerged transit speed is freaking 8kns, its patrol speed is 4kns. How is it ever going to keep up with any CBG?

Snorkel at night? Day or night, even DCNS themselves note that any conventional submarine can be detected by radar when snorkeling. Radar detection aside, when snorkeling, even the boats radiated noise increases substantially from having to work its diesel engines to charge its batteries.

Rubis is an SSN that can keep up with any task-force or even wait indefinitely for a firing solution. The scorpene is a small sub that would have to lie in wait for a task-group to pass in range of an intercept and doesn't even have the persistence to do even that lacking AIP tech.

Trust an internet fanboy troll to allot mythical powers to a 1.5 ton conventional sub.

How exactly do you know the radiated noise signatures of Type 054A's, Type 052C/D's and Type 055's? Arm Chair Admiral 101 I guess.
 
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Armand2REP

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The Scorpene's submerged transit speed is freaking 8kns, its patrol speed is 4kns. How is it ever going to keep up with any CBG?
What makes you think it needs to "keep up" with it? It is not hard to track where it will be going.

Snorkel at night? Day or night, even DCNS themselves note that any conventional submarine can be detected by radar when snorkeling. Radar detection aside, when snorkeling, even the boats radiated noise increases substantially from having to work its diesel engines to charge its batteries.
Maybe your submarines, not ours. We use RAM coats and a cutting design that reduces wake. Your low tech radars wouldn't pick up our snorkels unless you had one on top of it. Our submarine's diesel engines are well insulated from your obsolete hydrophones. You act as if PLAN has US level ASW capabilities... it does not.

Rubis is an SSN that can keep up with any task-force or even wait indefinitely for a firing solution. The scorpene is a small sub that would have to lie in wait for a task-group to pass in range of an intercept and doesn't even have the persistence to do even that lacking AIP tech.
You act as if the location of a Chinese CBG could be kept a secret when it is easily visible even to commercial satellites.

Trust an internet fanboy troll to allot mythical powers to a 1.5 ton conventional sub.
My truck weighs more than that.

How exactly do you know the radiated noise signatures of Type 054A's, Type 052C/D's and Type 055's? Arm Chair Admiral 101 I guess.
Because all major Chinese surface combatants use pre-89' Pielstick engines that are license produced from France that do not incorporate any 21st century technology.
 

J20!

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What makes you think it needs to "keep up" with it? It is not hard to track where it will be going.



Maybe your submarines, not ours. We use RAM coats and a cutting design that reduces wake. Your low tech radars wouldn't pick up our snorkels unless you had one on top of it. Our submarine's diesel engines are well insulated from your obsolete hydrophones. You act as if PLAN has US level ASW capabilities... it does not.



You act as if the location of a Chinese CBG could be kept a secret when it is easily visible even to commercial satellites.



My truck weighs more than that.



Because all major Chinese surface combatants use pre-89' Pielstick engines that are license produced from France that do not incorporate any 21st century technology.
First of all... Stop pretending to be French my friend. Its getting kinda sad watching your act...

Second, you're not the authority on the Scorpene... DCNS is:

A conventional diesel-electrical submarine sailing underwater is difficult to detect. However the need to come repeatedly to periscope depth to recharge the batteries using the diesel engine greatly increases vulnerability by:

  • Its aerial detectability, since the snorkel projecting from the water is detectable by radar
  • Its underwater detectability due to increase in radiated noise from the working diesels
The ratio between this time of greater vulnerability and the total operating time is known as the ‘indiscretion rate’ and for all conventional modem submarines the indiscretion ratio ranges typically from 7% to 10% on patrol at 4kt, and 20% to 30% in transit at 8kt.

"To lessen the submarine’s vulnerability, Scorpene can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system."
To lessen the submarine’s vulnerability, the vessel can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system such as: the Stirling engine, the fuel cell, the closed circuit diesel and the module d’energie sous-marine autonome (MESMA) system .
A non-AIP Scorpene would have to intercept the task-force's path, then stay submerged long enough on battery power to not be picked up by the CBG's ASW screen, which would include the escorting SSN, ASW frigates/Destroyers, Carrier borne heavy ASW helicopters and the medium weight ASW helicopters on the escort platforms. Even LRMPA aircraft are generally involved in screening a carrier's path.

According to you every piece of equipment on Chinese Navy platforms is "pre-1989" but you seem to know little and less about Chinese ASW sensors, platforms and weaponry Mr "Chini-Expert". Ask you shall receive.
 

Armand2REP

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First of all... Stop pretending to be French my friend. Its getting kinda sad watching your act...
My pension says otherwise.

Second, you're not the authority on the Scorpene... DCNS is:
DCNS doesn't exist, but if you knew anything about it you would know it is Naval Group.

A non-AIP Scorpene would have to intercept the task-force's path, then stay submerged long enough on battery power to not be picked up by the CBG's ASW screen
It isn't that hard if you are in the general heading of the surface group. With Artemis getting positioning is much easier with a fire solution at 50km range.

According to you every piece of equipment on Chinese Navy platforms is "pre-1989" but you seem to know little and less about Chinese ASW sensors, platforms and weaponry Mr "Chini-Expert". Ask you shall receive.
1989 is the limit of your access to French technology and in sonars/marine engines you have yet to surpass it.
 

J20!

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My pension says otherwise.



DCNS doesn't exist, but if you knew anything about it you would know it is Naval Group.



It isn't that hard if you are in the general heading of the surface group. With Artemis getting positioning is much easier with a fire solution at 50km range.



1989 is the limit of your access to French technology and in sonars/marine engines you have yet to surpass it.
Soooo... You're a French pensioner who now lives in the US but used to live in China and had a gold-digging Chinese girlfriend? Yeah, that must be true... Who am I to stop the A-class performance.

Uggh please man. When the Scorpene was first put in the water, its manufacturer was DCNS. The Scorpenes being built in India where under a DCNS contract. Every Scorpene in active service today was constructed under the auspices of DCNS. Naval Group is a 2017 development. Its just a name son.

Yes, it isn't that hard to intercept a carrier task-force in a submerged conventional sub moving at 4-8kns. Armchair Admiral at his best.

Conventional subs are good for patrolling green-water/littorals and maritime choke-points. Your fantasies of non-AIP Scorpenes sinking entire Chinese Navy CBG's are just that. Fantasies.

So everything in the Chinese Navy is 1989 french tech?

Which one is the pre 1989 sonar Mr. Chini Expert? The Type 206 towed array sonar on pre 2013 Type 054A's or the Type 311 TAS on the newest Type 054A's, or the Type 064 communications sonar or the Type 066 communications sonar on the newest Type 054A's or the Type 307 bow sonar or the Type 707A acoustic field analyser or the Type 723 vessel surroundings monitoring sonar?

That is the composition of a Type 054A's sonar suite son. But you're here talking about "pre-1989 Thomsons". Willfully ignorant doesn't even begin to describe you.
 
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Armand2REP

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Soooo... You're a French pensioner who now lives in the US but used to live in China and had a gold-digging Chinese girlfriend? Yeah, that must be true... Who am I to stop the A-class performance.
I never said I lived in the US. I don't know how you can be Chinese and never heard of VPN. Hey now we can both be Chinese!

Uggh please man. When the Scorpene was first put in the water, its manufacturer was DCNS. The Scorpenes being built in India where under a DCNS contract. Every Scorpene in active service today was constructed under the auspices of DCNS. Naval Group is a 2017 development. Its just a name son.
Ughh please man. When they were first contracted with India they were to be built and supported by Navantia but they later withdrew from the project. Since you are such an expert on it yet you already have two strikes.
Yes, it isn't that hard to intercept a carrier task-force in a submerged conventional sub moving at 4-8kns. Armchair Admiral at his best.
I got 1000 hours in Jane's Naval Combat simulator used by the USN's Surface Warfare School, I know a thing or two.

Conventional subs are good for patrolling green-water/littorals and maritime choke-points. Your fantasies of non-AIP Scorpenes sinking entire Chinese Navy CBG's are just that. Fantasies.
If it was such a fantasy then why does the USN fear SSKs so much? Because it is the only thing that has a chance of sinking their carriers.

So everything in the Chinese Navy is 1989 french tech?
Just the two things I mentioned and any Crotale clones you still use, maybe some helicopter engines. The vast majority is cloned from the Soviet era.

Which one is the pre 1989 sonar Mr. Chini Expert?
All of your latest subs use a clone of the TSM-2255 and 2233. Your surface vessels won't get anywhere close enough to use theirs.
 

J20!

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I never said I lived in the US. I don't know how you can be Chinese and never heard of VPN. Hey now we can both be Chinese!



Ughh please man. When they were first contracted with India they were to be built and supported by Navantia but they later withdrew from the project. Since you are such an expert on it yet you already have two strikes.


I got 1000 hours in Jane's Naval Combat simulator used by the USN's Surface Warfare School, I know a thing or two.



If it was such a fantasy then why does the USN fear SSKs so much? Because it is the only thing that has a chance of sinking their carriers.



Just the two things I mentioned and any Crotale clones you still use, maybe some helicopter engines. The vast majority is cloned from the Soviet era.



All of your latest subs use a clone of the TSM-2255 and 2233. Your surface vessels won't get anywhere close enough to use theirs.
Yeah, you could be Indian for all we know:wink:... It's weird how some people are so ashamed of their nationality they spend 9+ years impersonating a Frenchy.

So i suppose you managed to sink an entire task-force using a non-AIP Scorpene in a deep sea, open ocean environment during these 1000 hours? Your tales keep getting taller and taller Armchair Admiral Sir!

A healthy respect for SSK's is in order for any Navy operating in littorals and maritime choke-points, which the US Navy does regularly with their land target bombardments. But remember that your post was to the effect that a Scorpene could sink an entire task-force in a deep sea environment. To which I call BULLSHIT!

A CBG steaming at 20+ kns with an ASW escort(including an SSN BTW) and airborne assets screening their route in a deep sea environment VS a conventional sub only capable of moving at 4-8kns submerged for a very limited amount of time? And you claim to be a naval expert with 1000hrs on a simulator.

Go post your "one or two" brain fart analyses somewhere else my "French" friend. If 1.5 ton diesel electric subs could sink entire task forces anywhere anytime no one would bother investing billions in carriers and their escorts.
 
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Pandeyji

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Yeah, you could be Indian for all we know:wink:... It's weird how some people are so ashamed of their nationality they spend 9+ years impersonating a Frenchy.
It's usually a wumao tradition. The French are fiercely proud of their military & the stuff they make.

Also your 1.5 ton nonsense is beyond stupid. An Arjun tank is 60 tons for Gods sake!(1 or 2 times is typo but repeatedly typing the same stupid thing raises doubts on your mental health)
 

J20!

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It's usually a wumao tradition. The French are fiercely proud of their military & the stuff they make.

Also your 1.5 ton nonsense is beyond stupid. An Arjun tank is 60 tons for Gods sake!(1 or 2 times is typo but repeatedly typing the same stupid thing raises doubts on your mental health)
My apologies kind Sir. What I meant to type was 1 565 tons on the CM2000 non AIP version to be precise. It's a typo mate. No need to get snippy.

And I suppose Indians or Chinese or even Iranians are not "fiercely proud of their military & the stuff they make"? Astute observation kind Sir...

But I don't see anyone else claiming a small diesel sub can sink an entire taskforce at once.
 
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Pandeyji

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And I suppose Indians or Chinese or even Iranians are not "fiercely proud of their military & the stuff they make"? Astute observation kind Sir...
Do a small experiment. Go talk to any Frenchman about Raphale & then tell me whether you understood my point. Trust me we had got nothing on French when it comes to internet nationalism.
 

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