China's first indigenous carrier CV17

Discussion in 'China' started by happy, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. happy

    happy Senior Member Senior Member

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    China is reportedly building a second aircraft carrier, estimated to be completed by 2018, on its way to expanding its fleet to four of the massive ships.

    Media reports - later deleted from the internet - stated Liaoning party chief Wang Min told a panel of the provincial people's congress that the second carrier was being built in the city of Dalian. The reports also quoted Wang as saying the port city was building two advanced 052D destroyers.

    Wang told delegates from Dalian yesterday that the shipyard had started building China's second carrier after the first one, Liaoning, was delivered to the navy. The shipyard was responsible for refitting Liaoning, formerly a Ukrainian carrier.

    Wang said construction of the new carrier would take six years and China's navy would eventually have four.

    While the report did not specify the exact completion date, the new carrier is expected to be completed in 2018, based on the delivery date of Liaoning to the navy in September 2012.

    It was the first confirmation by a senior official that China was building a second carrier, as well as the location and the timetable of its construction. The Defence Ministry has been tight-lipped about the progress of the plan.

    The South China Morning Post reported in November that China would build four medium carriers by 2020. A country needs three to four carrier battlegroups for combat capability. The United States, by comparison, has 10 active carriers.

    The carriers are part of China's push to develop a so-called blue water navy at a time when tension is running high with neighbours including Japan and the Philippines. In December, the USS Cowpens had to change course to avoid a near collision with one of the ships in the Liaoning squadron conducting tests in the South China Sea.

    Military experts yesterday were divided about why the report was removed from the internet.

    "I am sure Wang Min did say that in the panel meeting. But it seems that it is not proper for him to make the news public," a senior naval colonel said, requesting anonymity.

    One retired PLA general said: "There is only one reason for such an important piece of news to come out in this way: the central authorities want to keep it low profile."

    Macau-based military expert Wang Dong yesterday said it made sense that Dalian shipyard was responsible for the construction of the new carrier.

    "However, it is worth keeping an eye if Dalian also gets the orders to build type 052D destroyers as they are usually built by Shanghai shipyard. If Dalian is building both, it may exceed their capacity,' he said.

    A spokesman of Defence Ministry yesterday declined to comment when reached by the Sunday Morning Post.

    Work under way on China's second aircraft carrier at Dalian yard | South China Morning Post
     
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  3. happy

    happy Senior Member Senior Member

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  4. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    Carrier number 2, Type 001A, is near launch. Carrier number 3, the first Type 002 CATOBAR, is already being built in Shanghai.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ft-carrier-almost-complete-4-more-could-19542

    China's Second Aircraft Carrier Is Almost Complete (And 4 More Could Be Coming)
    [​IMG]
    Dave Majumdar
    February 22, 2017

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    According to Chinese state media, Beijing’s first domestically built carrier is nearing completion at Dalian.

    The vessel—which is expected to become operational in 2020—will be launched soon.


    Thereafter, the new carrier will spend roughly the next two years being outfitted with various systems such as sensors and other hardware.

    ...

    However, after Type-001A is completed, China will abandon the ski-jump equipped Kuznetsov-class design and develop a new carrier equipped with steam catapults. China has been developing an Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System similar to those found onboard the soon-to-be-commissioned USS Gerald Ford (CVN-78), but Beijing will likely stick to steam catapults until the electromagnetic catapult technology is more mature. “In other words, 002 is entirely different from the Liaoning (001) and 001A, and it will look like US aircraft carrier rather than a Russian one," Li said.

    Ultimately, Beijing will likely build at least a half-dozen carriers to meet its requirements.
     
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  5. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    According to Sina news, China plans to build 10 or more aircraft carriers, the first batch will be 6 aircraft carriers, then at least four more nuclear powered ones.

    According PLA major general Yin Zhuo, there are at least 4 major ship building corporations in China that can be used to build carriers. The two shipyards in Shanghai and Dalian alone are currently building 2 CVs, 2 LDHs and 8 DDGs at the same time, so capacity is there and it is already being used for the buildout of the carrier groups.
     
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  6. Srinivas_K

    Srinivas_K Senior Member Senior Member

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    India has plans to build 5 to 6 aircraft carriers. We can take care of IOR and counter chinese influence.
    China is not USA, it cannot project its power countering Japan, USA and then making India as its enemy.
     
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  7. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    Good for you China.

    A slap in the face of hypocritical Chini retards about the importance of ACCs.

    From India's perspective not much has changed. A Chinese CBG patrolling IOR is still a decade & half away which provides ample time to Indian naval planners. It was always going to be a numbers game so let's see how it turns out.

    Also the sheer time, energy & money China put in A2/AD projects gave some very good ideas. Like long range UAV based AEW for monitoring traffic in IOR for example.
     
  8. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    Obviously most of China's carriers will be in the East and South China Seas facing the US and Japan.

    Chinese Carrier Groups might be in the IOR protecting China's shipping lanes just warships from dozens of countries.

    In fact, US Carriers travel all over the IOR today so it makes no sense for India to single out a Chinese carrier.

    Any Chinese Carrier in the IOR would worry mainly if not exclusively about the US Navy not India. The US Navy is just as dominant in the Indian Ocean as it is on China's coasts so the PLAN is trained to focus on the USN.
     
  9. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Silly underestimation, majority of Chinese surface fleet is sitting ducks for our Brahmos armed ships, the deadliest force you can encounter in IOR and around it is the IN
     
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  10. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    It is not a matter of underestimation but of China's geo-political reality. The USN is the dominant force in the Indian Ocean and it is the one that sees China as a peer rival and tries to contain it. The US is the nation that pushes Chinese military development because it is a superpower. Without the US, China would not have bothered with such a large navy.
     
  11. vinuzap

    vinuzap Regular Member

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    third grade propaganda and frustration by china and more furstration is due to this :


    America's Master Plan to Turn India Into an Aircraft Carrier Superpower

    Anyone who has been watching the United States try to pull off its much discussed “pivot” or “rebalance” to Asia knows one thing: The challenges of the day, from Russian moves in Eastern Europe and Syria to the threat of ISIS—or even just the steady stream of non-Asia-Pacific problems—always seem to get in the way. However, we must give President Obama credit where credit is due. U.S. relations with India, which shares a common challenge with America in a rising China, have warmed considerably. While certainly not a full-blown alliance, relations have grown to such an extent that U.S. defense officials seem willing to share some of their most prized military technologies with the rising South Asian powerhouse. Indeed, the United States seems ready to share the very symbol of American power projection: the mighty aircraft carrier.

    A report from Reutersnotes that Washington and New Delhi are discussing options for the joint development of an aircraft carrier for India. In a recent visit to India, Chief of U.S. Naval Operations, John Richardson, remarked that “we are making very good progress, I am very pleased with the progress to date and optimistic we can do more in the future. That's on a very solid track.”






    Richardson, according to the Reuters report, revealed that one of the crown jewels of American carrier technology—highly coveted electromagnetic launch technology that allows heavier planes to take off from the carrier flight deck—was part of the talks. Richardson offered that “all of those things are on the table, there are possibilities, it’s a matter of pacing, it's very new technology for us."

    Considering how difficult it is to build an aircraft carrier—for example, China began in-depth, first-hand analysis of scraped aircraft carriers it purchased back in 1985, taking until 2012 to commission a small rebuilt ex-Soviet carrier—this is nothing short of a coup for India. Up until this point, New Delhi’s best options were, shall we say, less than desirable Russian technology. As frequent National Interest contributor Kyle Mizokami points out:

    “In the early 2000s, India faced a dilemma. The Indian navy’s only carrier INS Viraat was set to retire in 2007. . . India’s options were limited. The only countries building carriers at the time—the United States, France and Italy—were building ships too big for India’s checkbook. In 2004, India and Russia struck a deal in which India would receive Admiral Gorshkov. The ship herself would be free, but India would pay $974 million dollars to Russia to upgrade her.

    “It was an ambitious project. At 44,500 tons, Admiral Gorshkov was a huge ship. Already more than a decade old, she had spent eight years languishing in mothballs. Indifference and Russia’s harsh winters are unkind to idle ships.”

    From here, well, things took an interesting turn:

    “In 2007, just a year before delivery, it became clear that Russia’s Sevmash shipyard couldn’t meet the ambitious deadline. Even worse, the yard demanded more than twice as much money—$2.9 billion in total—to complete the job.

    “The cost of sea trials alone, originally $27 million, ballooned to a fantastic $550 million.

    “A year later, with the project still in disarray, Sevmash estimated the carrier to be only 49-percent complete. Even more galling, one Sevmash executive suggested that India should pay an additional $2 billion, citing a “market price” of a brand-new carrier at “between $3 billion and $4 billion.”

    And, perhaps, worse still:

    “The ship’s boilers, which provide Vikramaditya [the Indian rechristened for Admiral Gorshkov] with power and propulsion, are a long-term concern. All eight boilers are new. But yard workers discovered defects in them. During her trip from Russia to India, the flattop suffered a boiler breakdown, which Sevmash chalked up to poor-quality Chinese firebricks.”

    Clearly India, now able to ‘pivot’ away from Russia’s carrier problems, stands to benefit dramatically in this new partnership with America.

    Reuters also noted that a joint working group is set to meet in New Delhi in the coming weeks as part of a sustained effort to establish strong cooperation on the design, development and production of a proposed Indian carrier. My question is this: Would America also be willing to sell to its new South Asian partner the carrier-based version of the F-35? Considering rumors a few years back concerning a possible F-35 purchase by New Delhi, you have to wonder. If China keeps pushing its weight around in the wider Indo-Pacific region, one can’t dismiss how far this partnership could really go.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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  12. vinuzap

    vinuzap Regular Member

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    http://www.theworldreporter.com/2013/08/aicraft-carrier-liaoning-vs-indian-ins-vikrant.html

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    Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning

    India unveiled its indigenous Aircraft carrier few days back raising hackles in the neighbourhood, not in Pakistan, but in China. Chinese media is claiming that now it will be easier for India to project its power in the Chinese area of interests like Strait of Malacca, South China Sea and the Pacific. However, these concerns are slightly exaggerated as this aircraft carrier may not be ready by 2020 and that India never moved its earlier aircraft carriers away from Indian region ever.



    Nevertheless, one thing is for sure, if the upcoming sea trials would be successful, India can reduce its dependence on other countries for import of costly arms and weapons. It might make Russia, India’s top arm supplier, a bit uncomfortable, but looks like it is not so! Helping India achieve self-reliance was one of Russia’s calculated aim, which is why it ventured in many joint development and production of sophisticated weapons. Two friendly countries developing technology is always better than one country developing and other buying it.


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    INS Vikrant, credits on the image

    The new air craft carrier would give India further self-reliance in defence sector, which can reduce the import of costly arms and weapons. An aircraft carrier along with nuclear submarine is necessary for a navy to be called as a true blue navy. India is among the elite group of ten countries who possess an aircraft carrier in service at the moment. These countries are: US (10), Italy (2), UK (1), France (1), Russia (1), India (1), Spain (1), Brazil (1), China (1), and Thailand (1).

    Last year China became third country in Asia to possess an operational aircraft carrier. It is a bit surprising that China, who loves to project its military power got its first aircraft carrier so late. China shared the same mentality of Soviet Union that a missile worth $1 million can sink a carrier worth $1 billion. Today when China’s economy is impressive, it doesn’t mind to roll out its own carrier in the blue waters.

    In 1998, Ukrainian Trade Minister Roman Shpek announced that a Hong Kong based travel agency Chong Lot Travel Agency Ltd. has won the bidding of their retired aircraft carrier Varyag with $20 million. The idea was to convert the ship into a floating hotel and gambling parlour. However, China had bigger ambitions, it transferred the ship to a major Chinese Naval shipyard where it was renovated into an operational Aircraft Carrier. The ship initially lacked engines, a rudder and software.

    In this article we will be comparing India’s first indigenous aircraft carrier and China’s first aircraft carrier Liaoning. Although the fair comparison would be between Liaoning and Vikramaditya as both belong to Soviet Era from their planning and that both will be operational after few months, we will be coming up with an article on that soon. Nevertheless, almost all of the development and construction of INS Vikrant was with India and most of the construction and development of Liaoning was with China. This makes it interesting to compare the technology and equipment incorporated by both.

    Chinese Aircraft Carrier Liaoning (16)
    Liaoning (16) became People Liberation Army’s Navy’s first commissioned aircraft carrier on September 25, 2012. Originally laid down as Riga on December 6, 1985 in Mykolaiv, USSR (present Ukraine), the ship was launched on December 4, 1988. In late 1990 it was renamed as Varyag. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the ownership of the vessel was given to newly formed Ukraine. Since then the work on the ship had stopped. Varyag was structurally completed and had to be equipped with electronics. However, Ukraine considered holding the work and stripping the ship off important parts. In just seven years, in 1998 ship was put for auction without its engine, rudder and electronics.

    Read Spy Wars: CIA crossed ‘red line’; American Spy Fogle Caught and Detained from Russia
    In April 1998, Ukrainian trade minister confirmed the selling of Varyag aircraft carrier to China. After having huge political drama with Turkey for getting transit right from Black sea to Mediterranean sea through Turkish waters, the ship finally arrived in Chinese water after four years on February 20, 2002 taking a big round of Africa via Strait of Gibraltar, Cape of Good Hope and Strait of Malacca sailing with an average speed of mere 6 knots (11Km/h) completing a 28,200KM distance avoiding Suez Canal which doesn’t allow passage of dead ship and Indian waters which is full of diplomatic and political activities as India takes any Chinese action as alarming.

    Varyag was docked in a dry dock in Dalian in June 2005. After six years on 10th August 2011, the ship began sea trials. The Ship was commissioned on 25th September 2012 as Liaoning. China claims it is a training ship and not operational however, sources declare that there are aircrafts in the hangar ready to fly and launch a mission.


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    Infograph – Chinese Aircraft Carrier Liaoning, credits on the image itself.


    Weapon Equipment
    Liaoning is equipped with AESA and Sea Eagle (Type 381) 3D Radar developed in China. It has a range of 100 Km (62 mi) and Altitude of 8000m. The radar has the capability to track 10 targets simultaneously. Like almost all modern ships which have CIWS, Liaoning is equipped with three Chinese Type 1030 CIWS which has 10 barrels that can fire 30mm ammunition at the rate of 10,000 rounds/min. The Ship is equipped with Chinese FL-3000N SAM having maximum range of 9KM for subsonic targets and 6KM for supersonic targets. To protect itself from the submarines, it is equipped with ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) 12 tube rocket launchers.

    INS Vikrant is equipped with Israeli ELTA MF Star Radar and Italian Selex RAN-40L radar. MF Star has the range greater than 25KM for low flying attacking missile and greater than 250KM for high flying aircrafts. Selex RAN-40L on the other hand has a maximum range of 400KM and minimum rang of 180m. In the area of early warning and enemy detection INS Vikrant has an upper hand. CIWS and LR SAM used in INS Vikrant is not known yet, once the information is available we will update soon. INS Vikrant is equipped with four Otobreda 76 mm Italian made compact cannon which has the capability to fire 120 rounds/min up to 20KM. Westland Sea King Helicopter will be primarily responsible for providing ASW capabilities to the Indian indigenous aircraft carrier. India has not declared yet if it has ASW rocket launchers on board INS Vikrant

    Read Pakistan Cannot Match India militarily: Pakistan Defence Minister
    Aircraft Carried
    1) Liaoning can carry thirty Su-33 design based indigenous Shenyang J-15 Carrier based Multirole fighter aircrafts. The fighter is still in the testing phase and on 25th November 2012, two J-15 aircraft successfully made arrested landing on Liaoning.

    2) Changhe Z-8 based on French Aérospatiale SA 321 Super Frelon helicopters will be used for Search and Rescue and Anti-Submarine Warfare operations. It is equipped with a surface search radar and a French HS-12 dipping sonar and carries a Whitehead A244S torpedo under the starboard side of the fuselage.

    • Max. Speed: 249 km/h (135 kn (155 mph))
    • Range: 1,020 km (549 nmi (632 mi))
    • Rate of climb: 6.7 m/s (1,312 ft/min)
    3) Ka 31 Helicopters will be used for airborne early warning

    INS Vikrant on the other hand will carry twelve Mig 29K on board. The aircraft completed sea trials for the Indian Navy in November 2012.

    Apart from Mig 29K, the ship will carry another eight naval version of India’s indigenous HAL LCA Tejas delta wing aircrafts. Which might take another many years to become operational.

    Like China, INS Vikrant will also be carrying Ka 31 Helicopters for airborne early warning operations.

    British Westland Sea King helicopters will be used for launching Anti-Submarine and Anti-Ship operations.

    • Maximum speed: 129 mph (112 knots, 208 km/h) (max cruise at sea level)
    • Range: 764 mi (664 nmi, 1,230 km)
    • Rate of climb: 2,020 ft/min (10.3 m/s)
    If the jets and helicopters of Chinese ship is compared with the Indian ones, India lacks considerably in this department. Chinese aircraft Carrier can carry 30 Aircrafts and 24 Helicopters Compared to 20 Aircrafts and 10 Helicopters by Indian carrier. It gives a good advantage to the Chinese over Indians especially when their primary jet J-15 outsmarts Indian Mig 29K.

    However, at the moment, neither J-15 nor HAL Tejas is ready, Mig 29K is operational and will find place in Vikramaditya aircraft carrier as soon as it is delivered to Indian Navy.

    Liaoning with its 2200 crew and 67500 tons displacement can sail with the speed of 30 Kn (55.56 Km/hr) whereas INS Vikrant with its 1,400 crew and 40,000 tons displacement can sail with the speed of 28 Kn (52 Km/hr)

    The Chinese aircraft carrier appears to be a great giant with slightly more advanced fleet in front of INS Vikrant as well as INS Vikramaditya. J-15 is yet to prove its capabilities while Mig 29K still finds trust among Indians and Russians. 4++ generation MiG-29K is a combat hardened aircraft, which has the unique ability to even find and chase stealth aircrafts. It is only used by India and Russia and no other country. It is a carrier specific combat aircraft and Russian Naval Aviation has placed an order to get 24 more Mig29K/KUB between 2013 and 2015.

    Unlike other ships, aircraft carrier requires much more skilled and experienced crew to take full advantage of its capability and when it comes to experience, India enjoys experience of operating many since 1961, which is more than 50 years. India even has a wartime experience during 1971 Indo Pakistan war when INS Vikrant (not to be confused with the latest one) helped Indian Navy form a naval blockade against Pakistan and bomb ports of Cox Bazar, Chittagong, Khulna and Port of Mongla as Pakistan Navy was trying to break through the Indian Naval blockade using camouflaged merchant ships. A PTI report of 4 December 1971 read, “Chittagong harbour ablaze as ships and aircraft of the Eastern Naval Fleet bombed and rocketed. Not a single vessel can be put to sea from Chittagong.”

    Read Contemplating the Indian Independence Day
    China has declared that it will use Liaoning only for training purpose and as a model to develop new indigenous aircraft carriers. However, it sounds little tricky as China, which had not included any aircraft carrier before in its fleet because of cost issues, has now made a complete, full-fledged advanced ready to launch mission carrier. Another thing that strengthens the doubt is that Liaoning was supposed to be a floating casino and today it is allowing J-15 to make landings. It could be a training ship until J-15 becomes operational after that nobody knows what is China’s plan. Claiming it to be a training ship might be just a move to calm down the rest of the world, and save its image that it actually didn’t buy Varyag aircraft carrier from Ukraine to make its own functional and ready to launch mission carrier.

    Both Indian and Chinese aircraft carrier are using the technology used in former Soviet aircraft carriers for take-off. They rely on Short Takeoff but Arrested Recovery (STOBAR) system for launching and recovering aircraft. Latest Aircraft carriers are using Catapult-Assisted Takeoff but Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) system. STOBAR is easy to use, but limits the use of heavier aircraft and their payload. It is also difficult to operate bulky airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft using this system which can make the carrier very vulnerable during wartime. CATOBAR on the other hand is more advanced but needs precise designing and construction for it to function efficiently.

    Indian Navy has taken the challenge to incorporate this latest technology in its second indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vishal. For this, US based Northrop Grumman has offered to help India with the implementation of a steam catapult for CATOBAR on upcoming INS Vishal. Northrop Grumman expects if India develops and implements this technology on its aircraft carrier then it can become a good market for their E-2C Hawkeye AEW aircraft as CATOBAR system is ideal for launching bulky AEW aircrafts.

    Now that both India and China have the capability to possess a true blue water navy. It would be interesting to see how both of them use their best assets to project their power and send warning. When Liaoning will be ready with J-15, it will be interesting to see whether China will send it first to deep Pacific or Indian Ocean.
     
  13. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    That article is mostly about the horrible design and outrageous price India paid to rebuild the Vikramaditya.

    But as bad as the Vikramaditya is it won't make a difference to China since most of the chinese carriers will be in the East and South China Seas. China doesn't even have a lot of major systems on the India land border never mind the IOR.
     
  14. vinuzap

    vinuzap Regular Member

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    these are indigeneous and china has even more horrible record apart from reverse engineering, these are made in china which have the track record of failure and your carrier is copied from ukarine

    don't worry india know how to take care of rogue proliferator in south china sea
     
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  15. vinuzap

    vinuzap Regular Member

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    http://thediplomat.com/2016/10/assessing-us-india-defense-relations-the-technological-handshake/

    In the words of U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter, two “handshakes” now define the increasingly intimate Indo-U.S. defense partnership. The “strategic handshake” was examined in detail in my last article for The Diplomat. We will now turn our attention to the “technological handshake,” shorthand for the growth in arms sales, technical cooperation, and defense co-production and co-development.

    Decades of political estrangement deprived the United States and India of any meaningful defense relationship during the latter half of the Cold War. To make up for lost time, just one year after the collapse of the Soviet Union the two held the first edition of their now-popular Malabar joint naval exercise. A modest defense cooperation framework followed in 1995, sandwiched by two more Malabar exercises in 1995 and 1996. Yet this early courtship proved fleeting. Another decade of trust-building would pass before Delhi and Washington began to explore the true potential of a defense partnership.

    In 2001, President George W. Bush brought to the White House the first contemporary Indophile foreign policy team. Their impulse to seek a strategic rapprochement with India was further reinforced by the 9/11 terror attacks, and they found a willing partner in the Atal Vajpayee-led BJP government in Delhi. The Next Steps For Strategic Partnership (NSSP) signed in 2004 served as the foundation for a groundbreaking 10-year defense partnership reached a year later with Vajpayee’s successor.

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    Unlike the civil nuclear deal signed the same year, the defense pact quickly reaped dividends. By 2008 defense trade exceeded $1 billion, after cumulatively totaling some $300 million in the 55 years prior. Since 2008, the total has swelled to a $15 billion, as India has become the world’s largest importer of arms atop a $50 billion annual defense budget.

    Practically, India’s initial raft of purchases—including eight P-8I maritime patrol aircraft, six C-130J, and ten C-17 heavy lift aircraft—offered it some of America’s most capable military platforms. Symbolically, the sales marked an important departure from India’s philosophical attachment to Non-Alignment. Yet the initial euphoria was followed by a lull in defense ties.

    Both sides realized there were still formidable political and bureaucratic obstacles limiting the potential for defense cooperation in both capitals. Washington’s highly legalistic defense and export control regime often proved inhospitable to India, which sought privileged treatment despite lacking the institutional benefits of American defense partners or the perks of membership in the international arms control and non-proliferation architecture. Meanwhile, India’s defense industrial complex, a sluggish Leviathan by any measure, was undermined by the lack of a viable private sector, poor civil-military coordination, a highly-bureaucratized and burdensome regulatory regime, and a zealous anti-corruption campaign arguably as paralyzing as actual corruption.

    In recent years both sides have witnessed success in diminishing these barriers. The Modi administration’s multi-layered effort to reform India’s defense sector will be the subject of a third article to follow. To date, the prime minister is making his biggest impact outside the purview of institutional reform, through his personal intervention in advancing defense cooperation when and where the Indian bureaucracy has proven resistant. Pentagon officials say the combination of Prime Minister Modi, Defense Minister Parrikar, and Foreign Secretary S. Jaishankar is about as good as the United States is ever going to get.

    For India the same could be said of Secretary Carter, who has transformed the Pentagon’s “mindset regarding technology transfer to India from a culture of ‘presumptive no’ to one of presumptive ‘yes’.” As Deputy Secretary of Defense from 2011-2013, Carter served as point- man on Indo-U.S. defense ties, overseeing reforms that expedited the Pentagon’s review process for defense exports to India and dropping India’s prominent Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) from an “entities list” that limited technical cooperation. In 2012 Carter was tasked with heading a new Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) designed to surmount the bureaucratic obstacles inhibiting defense trade in both capitals.

    In 2015, Carter was promoted to Defense Secretary and quickly created an Indian Rapid Reaction Cell (IRRC), the first-ever country-specific “cell” of its kind in the Pentagon. The IRRC carries a staff of six; three are attached to the cell on a long-term basis and three rotate through the office every six months.

    By 2015, the DTTI had identified four “pathfinder” projects for Indo-U.S. co-development. Two of the four were government-to-government initiatives between the Pentagon and India’s DRDO. They included mobile electric hybrid power sources (MEHPS) developed for the U.S. Marine Corps, and advanced chemical, biological warfare protection gear for the U.S. Army. Contracts for both were signed in August 2015 and have been hailed as a success. In May 2017 they will reach their two-year life cycle and Washington and Delhi will soon determine whether to move forward with co-production.

    The remaining two pathfinder projects were joint private-sector initiatives. These included a joint venture between India’s Dynamatic Technologies and America’s AeroVironment to co-develop an advanced version of the RQ-11 Raven hand-launched drone. The second focused on “roll-on, roll-off” kits for Lockheed Martin’s C-130J Hercules.

    Unlike the government initiatives, the drones and C-130J kits never saw the light of day. “Those were cases where our government wasn’t planning to buy the product and we were facilitating industry-to-industry cooperation,” notes U.S. Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Frank Kendall. “It is hard to move those forward when there is no government commitment.”

    The Indian military was apparently unsatisfied with the Raven mini-drones, and has made no secret of its desire to purchase more advanced armed American UAVs like the Reaper and Global Hawk drones. To date, U.S. export control laws prohibited the sale of armed UAVs to India. However, India’s accession to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in June 2016 has opened the door to new opportunities for defense collaboration and arms transfers, including potentially armed drones. (U.S. officials caution that the sale of armed drones will not be quick or easy, and India’s entry into the MTCR is only the first of many hurdles that must be cleared.)

    In the interim, the two sides have launched a pair of new government-to-government DTTI co-development projects. They include a digital helmet-mounted display and a joint biological tactical detection system. Both were approved during Defense Secretary Ashton Carter’s visit to India in April 2016.

    At a July 2016 meeting of the DTTI, Delhi and Washington agreed to establish five new joint working groups, including Naval Systems; Air Systems, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance; Chemical and Biological Protection; and Other Systems. Moving forward, the United States has proposed 11 new ideas for defense cooperation under the DTTI while India has proposed six of its own. For now, both sides prefer those proposals go unnamed, as they quietly explore each platform’s potential at various working group meetings.

    Outside the DTTI, India and the United States have established two important new initiatives to collaborate on advanced technology. Both the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) and the Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology (JWGACT) were proposed by Delhi and were initially considered by many Washington insiders to be non-starters.

    Secretary Carter disagreed, and the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) held its first meeting in India in December 2015. Pentagon insiders say the JETJWG has to date been hobbled by India’s insistence on full tech-transfer of advanced jet engines but that Washington has proposed a way forward that is “instructive, informative, and productive.” In fact, Washington recently amended its policy guidelines on military jet engine tech-transfer to put India on par with NATO allies, though even that falls short of full transfer of advanced jet engine tech. Like India’s perennial interest in U.S. nuclear submarine technology, that is likely to remain a non-starter for the foreseeable future.

    The Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Co-operation (JWGACTC), meanwhile, has witnessed more progress. The JWGACTC is exploring the potential for sharing the technology behind EMALS, a system designed to launch aircraft from naval carriers at a higher rate and with less stress on the aircraft than the legacy steam-catapult systems currently in use. With India’s 57-year-old, Centaur-class carrier Viraat headed for retirement in the coming months, it will soon begin sea-trials for its first indigenously-built aircraft carrier, the Vikrant. (India also operates a 1980s-era Russian-built carrier, the Vikramaditya, commissioned in 2013).

    The JWGACTC has met twice thus far (a third meeting of the JWGACTC was planned for this summer but was canceled by India last-minute and had to be rescheduled), and during Prime Minister Modi’s June visit to Washington the two sides reached agreement on an Information Exchange Annex to the joint working group that will deal with confidential information. This is significant, as India is the only non-treaty ally of the United States with such an arrangement in place and a privilege shared by only two of America’s closest allies. The two sides are also exploring the possibility of having Washington “test and certify” the flight deck of India’s indigenous carriers, and the United States has offered to lead courses on carrier operations for the Indian Navy at the Defense Acquisition University in New Delhi.

    Finally, U.S. defense giants Boeing and Lockheed are aggressively pursuing opportunities to establish manufacturing lines in India for their F-16 and F-18 fighter aircraft, both for sale to India and as exports to third parties. In April 2016 Delhi and Washington organized the first “government-facilitated talks on producing an American fighter jet in India” where Boeing and Lockheed executives, accompanied by Pentagon point-man Keith Webster, jointly met with Indian Defense Ministry officials. “We are looking at establishing a complete manufacturing base ecosystem,” says one Lockheed official, with the company “offering India the exclusive opportunity to produce, operate and export F-16 Block 70 aircraft.”

    Meanwhile Raytheon and Lockheed Martin have partnered with Tata Power to jointly manufacture the world’s most advanced anti-tank guided missile, the 4,000-meter range “fire and forget” Javelin. Representing an “important precedent for future technology transfer to India,” Washington has committed to having 70 percent of the value of the Javelin built in India. As Ajai Shukla reports, that includes “manufacturing smokeless propellant, and assembling the missile seeker—the Holy Grail of missile technology.”

    In September 2015, Delhi announced terms had been reached on a $3 billion deal five years in the making to purchase 15 Chinook and 22 Apache helicopters (including Longbow fire-control radar), while India continues to express interest in the KC-46 strategic mid-air refueling tanker, as well as armed Predator drones and advanced surveillance drones. In the coming years India will take delivery of six additional C-130J Hercules heavy lift aircraft, four additional P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft, two dozen Harpoon anti-ship missiles, as well as hundreds of Stinger and Hellfire missiles.

    It’s unlikely Delhi and Washington will unveil any major new defense initiatives or big-ticket arms sales in the waning months of the Obama administration, and for both capitals that’s quite alright. U.S. officials feel there are enough promising proposals on the table and are taking a “wait and see” approach; the ball, as they say, is in Delhi’s court. How India responds may depend a great deal on the success of Prime Minister Modi’s efforts to reform India’s underperforming defense sector, the subject of the next article to follow.

    Jeff M. Smith is the Director of Asian Security Programs at the American Foreign Policy Council (AFPC). Alex Werman is a research assistant at AFPC.
     
  16. vinuzap

    vinuzap Regular Member

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    https://warisboring.com/chinas-airc...team-and-losing-power-29dae6cd9fdf#.9rczzy4yp


    these idiots taking about failure :

    There’s no more of a conspicuous and potent symbol of China’s growing naval power than the aircraft carrier Liaoning.

    But the 53,000-ton, 999-foot-long carrier could be dangerous to her crew and prone to engine failures. If so, that makes the vessel as much of a liability as an asset to Beijing.

    The ex-Soviet carrier once went by the name Varyag until a cash-strapped Ukraine sold the ship to Beijing in 1998. The Chinese navy has since invested considerable resources into modernizing the warship and testing her at sea.

    But on at least one occasion during recent sea trials, Liaoning appeared to suffer a steam explosion which temporarily knocked out the carrier’s electrical power system. The failure, reported by Chinese media site Sina.com, resulting from a leak in “the machine oven compartment to the water pipes.”

    We’re only able to glimpse at the carrier’s engine problems, as we know very little about what’s inside the ship. This includes even what kind of enginesLiaoning has.

    The Chinese government also doesn’t like to admit to problems with its military hardware. When it does—and that’s never guaranteed—the admissions often come months or years after problems come up.


    [​IMG]
    The Liaoning battle group during sea trials. Photo via China Defense Blog. At top—Varyag under tow. Photo via Naval War College/Wikimedia
    During the accident, hot water and steam began “spewing” out of the engine’s oven compartment, Sina.com reported. One cabin became “instantly submerged in water vapor,” the report added.

    The carrier then lost power, but the crew “eventually restored power to ensure the smooth operation of the ship.”

    Fortunately, this doesn’t appear to have been a catastrophic boiler failure of the kind that would unleash almost instantaneously lethal, high-pressure steam. It’s possible Liaoning instead suffered a low-pressure steam release involving a faulty heat exchanger. Vessels commonly use heat exchangers to control water temperature necessary for regulating internal power and heating.

    The Chinese navy began modernizing the ex-Varyag in 2005—essentially rebuilding the carrier from the inside. New electronics, self-defense anti-aircraft guns and new engines were just some of the upgrades. The warship in her unimproved condition was a “basket case,” an unnamed officer told the Website.

    Engine failures are not an unknown phenomenon aboard ex-Soviet carriers. The 40,000-ton displacement Indian carrier Vikramaditya—first a Soviet Kiev-class carrier commissioned in 1987 and sold in 2004—temporarily shut down at sea after a boiler overheated two years ago.

    The 50,000-ton Russian carrier Admiral Kuznetsov also goes nowherewithout a tug escort in case her engines break down while underway.


    [​IMG]
    The Chinese navy isn’t going to get rid of Liaoning any time soon. She’s Beijing’s first serviceable carrier and the ship is a valuable resource for naval flight operations. Even if China never sends her into battle, she’s useful for training and learning how carriers work.

    But powerplant problems can also make it so China can do little else. Failures can add costly repairs, shorten the vessel’s lifespan and force her to crawl along the water at slow speeds. Beijing also lacks large overseas naval bases—a necessity if trouble arises while Liaoning sails far from China’s shores.

    If she ever does. Liaoning is more alike to its ex-Soviet cousins than different—confined to home ports and restricted from challenging rivals like India.

    “Since China began to send navy convoys on anti-piracy missions to the Gulf of Aden and the Somali coast in 2008,” military analyst Liu Zhongmin wrote in Global Times in 2010. “The lack of overseas bases has emerged as a major impediment to the Chinese navy’s cruising efficiency.”

    Now add the possibility of engine problems.

    Update Oct. 24: James Holmes of the Naval War College urges skepticism on Liaoning’s troubles. Naval mishaps are not unusual, after all. “More likely, she suffered an engineering fault of an inglorious but all-too-common type,” Holmes writes. “One imagines Chinese seafarers will muddle through — much as their brethren do in other navies.”
     
  17. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    They can build all the ski jumps they want. None of it matches the combat power of one CATOBAR equipped carrier.
     
    aditya10r likes this.
  18. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    The Type 002 being built in Shanghai is a CATOBAR. Only the Shandong is a STOBAR.
     
  19. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    China has next to no experience of operating carriers, it will be a very very painful process for them to get up to speed, just like every other carrier navy. To make it worse they have to learn on their own as none of their friends operate carriers.

    Its entire naval strategy is defensive in nature and only recently has it started to re-orient into a blue water force.


    China is the USSR 2.0, a paper tiger.
     
    aditya10r likes this.
  20. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    No doubt it will be a hard and long road but they actually started training on land a decade ago.

    And they've been the most active carrier force outside the US even though all their missions are just training ones.

     
  21. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    USN is the dominant force across the world, still your biggest worry should be the IN, as for China ruling over IOR, such dreams are only dreams, you have plenty of enemies in your own back yard, India and US and at a different level.
     

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