China world's 2nd largest economy

amoy

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Don't miss a whole forest while gazing at a barren tree

unlike u guys, I think China's economy is compatible with the US's to a great extent. most products China produces or exports are no longer manufatured in the US. if the US doesn't import from China it anyway sources from another country (Mexico, Viet Nam...) which usually lacks an economy of scale that China has. Can u imagine the US makes a comeback to textile industry? or to toy making?

even if the US wanna contain China strategically the relationship remains highly inter-dependent economically unless a WW3 breaks out

besides, outstripping the competition in price is not always negative. pricing is inevitably an effective tool to spearehead marketing at primary stage. of course it depends on your standpoint. consumer - welcome it as beneficiaries. competitors - of course cry over narrowed margin in pricing war. to give u a typical example, 2 decades ago, there were hundreds of kinescope TV brands. but after cruel pricing wars, there are now <10 brands surviving the tough competition in China. many makers who failed to get cost efficient and innovative lost out (in 1990's lots of Chinese ent. went broken, many state owned). then the survivors had to climb up the ladder to compete in new generations -LCD, PDP in pursuit of 'blue ocean'... leaving old models behind. and meanwhile every Chinese household usually has several TVs nowadays.

furthermore China's branding promotion efforts can't be under estimated. Haier, Midea, Galanz (white goods)... well known in 3rd world countries. lots of ODM, OEM ongoing with brand recognition building up. Even Cherry Auto is well sold in Mid East.

Brand - not something that can be achieved overnight worldwide. Chinese enterprises have a long way to go... esp. in innovation ... with our neighbors as role models
 
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Armand2REP

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They don't need a qualitatively successful brand, only that which maintains a low-profile while selling well. Take Huawei for example, which is crunching into Cisco's market share like Pacman.
Huawei isn't a consumer brand. It is an industrial networking company. It just another form of infrastructure. That is really all Chinese companies have been able to sell abroad without needing a name brand, infrastructure. They build so much of it, they can do it rather cheaply. An economy that wants to rival the US cannot get there with only that sector. They have to tap the street consumer.
 

Rage

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Congratulations to China. Let's not discount the fact that they've done tremendously, and have the potential to go a lot farther.

However, the argument that China's GDP is 'actually a lot more' because the 'yuan is undervalued' belays a poor understanding of what GDP actually is. The GDP is not the value of all things that exist within a country, it is a measure of the market value of all final goods and services produced in that country within the year. GDP is not a static phenomenon, not a self-assured 'base' of material existence by virtue of the fact that a country has reached a certain level of 'progress'. It is affected by all those factors that affect income, output and spending within the year, and chief among the monetary variables: currency ratios.

The moment China revalues its yuan, it will simultaneously inflate its GDP in nominal terms and undermine it by depressing its economic potential. The net effect depends on the length of the revaluation, its extent, global competitiveness, the periodic liquidity of capital, the extent of global and national demand for the country's goods, and global and regional measures of aggregate demand; however the net real effect, owing to a change in currency values and China's export reliance, is likely to be negative.

So, the statement that China's GDP is 'actually a lot more' 'because the yuan is depressed' does not hold. You may want to think about that basic truth, before making such statements again.
 
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redragon

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China Forces Global Shift in Commerce
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704081604576144544050245566.html

decade ago, China wasn't the top trading partner for even one of the Group of 20 economies. Today, it's the biggest trading partner for six (Australia, Japan, Korea, India, Russia and South Africa), has replaced the U.S. as the top export market for a seventh (Brazil), and risen in import for the rest.
"When somebody writes the history of our time 50 or 100 years from now," says Lawrence Summers, the Harvard University economist and former Obama aide, "it is unlikely to be about the Great Recession of 2008"¦or about the fiscal problem that America confronted in the second decade of the 21st century. It will be about how the world adjusted to the movement of the theater of history toward China."

China's growth is felt in nearly every corner of the globe—in ways not always welcome. Its rise as a trading power is reshaping other economies, shifting national business models from manufacturing back to raw materials, pushing currencies in sometimes unwanted directions and prompting worries about wages in the U.S.

China, which reported a trade deficit for February in part because of the timing of the Lunar New Year, said exports for the first two months of this year ran 21.3% above year-ago levels; imports were up 36%. The U.S., meanwhile, said Thursday it ran a bigger trade deficit in January with China than with any other country. In January, at current exchange rates, China's global exports were 35% greater than U.S. exports; its global imports 14% smaller.

While China's official statistics may inflate the value of exports by underestimating the value of imported components, signposts of its trade heft are plentiful.

In Japan, the largest maker of construction equipment, Komatsu Ltd., drew 2.3% of revenue from China a decade ago; today it gets 19%. Newly hired college graduates take a two-week quickie Chinese course, replacing English classes the company used to require.

In South Africa, China now supplies half the imported clothes and more than two-thirds of the toys. In exchange, Chinese consumers enjoy oranges from Egypt, cocoa from Ghana and wine from South Africa.

In Brazil, China's unquenchable appetite for raw materials is changing the landscape—literally. Brazil's richest man, Eike Batista, is building a $2.6 billion superport north of Rio de Janeiro for massive tankers headed for China. Brazil and Peru have nearly completed a highway to carry goods from Brazilian farms through the Amazon and over the Andes to Peru's Pacific ports.

China's trade machine shows few signs of slowing. After plunging in 2009 when global trade flows dried up during the global financial crisis, Chinese exports and imports rebounded in 2010. The flow of Chinese investment overseas and investment in China by foreign multinationals will, if history is a guide, spur still more trade between China and others.

For emerging markets, the boost to incomes that comes from selling to China is welcome, but there are worries about unwelcome side effects.

For years, Brazil and neighbors sought to reduce dependence on the U.S. by fortifying local industries and nurturing a regional market to supply each other with everything from energy to washing machines. Now a boom in exports to China is pushing Brazil away from high-value manufactures and back toward commodities. In 2000, less than 2% of Brazil's exports of goods went to China; by 2009, 12.5% did, according to the International Monetary Fund.

According to Brazilian government data, about 80% of Brazil's exports to China are agricultural and mineral commodities; about 90% of its imports from China are manufactured goods, many of them things that Brazil can't make as cheaply as China because wages are higher in Brazil. Brazilian officials argue with increasing vehemence that China is giving its exports an extra advantage by undervaluing the yuan.

And some Brazilians worry about the long-term effects. "China is an important market, but Brazil shouldn't be putting all its eggs in one basket," says Rubens Ricupero, a former Brazilian finance minister and former head of the U.N. Conference on Trade & Development.

In South Africa, under pressure from trade unions, the government last year asked China to voluntarily limit textile exports, resuming quotas that were lifted in 2008. China refused. If Chinese firms aren't selling to South Africa, it will be other countries who take our place," China's ambassador, Zhong Jianhua, said in an interview.

In Indonesia, textile, furniture and electronics manufacturers are shouting about imports from China that followed the lifting of tariffs in a regional free-trade pact. "We are totally outcompeted even though our labor is cheaper than theirs," says Sofjan Wanandi, chairman of the Indonesian Employers Association. Lousy infrastructure and high interest rates boost costs in Indonesia, he argues. "People are going out of business or becoming importers of Chinese goods." Imports from China rose 50% last year, more than offsetting Indonesia's increased commodities exports to China.

About 30% of China's trade is with developing countries—up from less than 20% in 2000, the IMF says. But the bulk is still with developed countries.

China accounts for 25% of Australia's exports, up from 4% of just a decade ago. Demand for raw materials and the related trade surplus, a surge in the Australian dollar and increase in interest rates are twisting the economy, strengthening western mining regions while undercutting tourism and nonmining industries.

"We've got resources that the world needs. But we need to organize our affairs to take best advantage of that and overcoming issues of the bipolar economy," Roger Corbett, former chief executive of retailer Woolworths Ltd. and a member of the Australian central bank board, said recently. He advocates a tax on the mining industry, which he sees, in essence, as a tax on China.

The thorniest question is whether the rise of China and other emerging-markets is affecting wages in the U.S. The textbook view is that trade hurts some workers and helps others and on balance is a net plus.

But some economists argue that when rich countries traded mainly with other rich countries—the U.S. with Germany, for instance—they specialized, but didn't compete on wages. They say the dynamics of trade with low-wage emerging markets are different: Even some who preach the virtues of free trade suggest China's—and India's—growing weight and move to more sophisticated products may contribute to sluggish wage increases in the U.S. and a widening gap between job-market winners and losers.

"For advanced countries, more imports today are coming from middle- and low-income countries," says Matthew Slaughter of Dartmouth's Tuck School of Business, a former Bush White House adviser. "Even though these emerging trading partners are becoming richer, their wages are on average still much lower than in the U.S." U.S. wages for all but the best-educated workers—the ones immune from competition with China—are depressed, as a consequence, he says.

Other economists insist the evidence doesn't support the case that trade, as opposed to technology, is the culprit for disappointing U.S. wage growth. Harvard University's Robert Lawrence, who is writing a book on the issue, says, "The U.S. economy has become so specialized that less-skilled U.S. workers no longer compete head to head with emerging-economy workers."

Redragon here: hmmn, looks like China is not really relying on export and FDA only.
 

redragon

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True, it now relies on construction for 70% of its GDP.
This new one is groundless just like your previous assertion, you are just a jealous french, but nothing can change the fact that France is getting less important day after day. In 10 years, no one will care what french has to say.
 

badguy2000

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This new one is groundless just like your previous assertion, you are just a jealous french, but nothing can change the fact that France is getting less important day after day. In 10 years, no one will care what french has to say.
In one decade, the economy of France will be as small as that of CHinese Guangdong province.
 

Armand2REP

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In one decade, the economy of France will be as small as that of CHinese Guangdong province.
It seems like there are less migrant workers coming back to Guangdong after Spring Festival. The wealth of China is going West man, these coastal provinces have already peaked.
 

amoy

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these coastal provinces have already peaked.

the shift is going on, but from another West

Xiamen Stone Fair expected to overtake Marmomacc as world's No.1
http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news17832.htmlA "Hummer" which is made of stone is displayed at Xiamen Stone Fair 2011.

The Xiamen Stone Fair 2011, which kicked off at the Xiamen International Conference & Exhibition Centre on the morning of 6th March, is set to showcase the latest product introductions, innovations, technological advances, design solutions and service to the attendees from the stone industry all over the world.



At this year's fair, a total of over 1,370 exhibitors from different parts of the world have gathered in Xiamen to take part in this grand event. With the exhibition area reaching 105 thousand square metres, the scale of this fair is close to that of Marmomacc in Italy, the world's largest stone fair at present.


"The construction of Phase â…¢ projects at the Xiamen International Conference & Exhibition Centre is expected to be finished and put into use at the end of 2012. By then, the Xiamen Stone Fair 2013 is likely to overtake Marmomacc as the world's largest stone fair", according to Zheng Yaning, Director of CCPIT Xiamen.



At this year's exhibition, most exhibitors set sights on the Chinese market as its market share has been growing bigger in the past two years.



"Before 2008, our export growth reached more than 25% every year; however, in the past two years, we only saw single digit growth in exports. By comparison, the domestic market share has been growing substantially during this period of time", said Zhou Peng, President of Wanli Stone Group.



Meanwhile, a groundbreaking ceremony of the Xiamen International Stone Centre was also held on 6th March. Occupying a total area of more than 20,000 square metres, the centre is set to become the headquarters of the international stone operations upon its construction.
 

Armand2REP

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A Stone Fair? Are we supposed to be impressed by a fair about stone? The world market is only worth $10 billion. When you overtake Le Bourget as the world's largest air expo for an industry worth a trillion, then I will be impressed.
 

mattster

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China has about another 10 years of very low wages - then the days of paying young workers from the countryside USD $200 - 300 per month will be gone forever. In 10 years in China, it will probably cost a company like Foxconn USD$2000 per month. All the low tech stuff and cheap consumer electronics will disappear. Then China will have to compete with the best in the world on quality and innovation and not on price.

If you are gung-ho on China being number one; then you have to ask where are the major successes other than low tech exports. My theory is this rise in wages along with the massive environmental cost of breakneck growth with force it to slow its economy down to around 5% growth in GDP. The CCP guys are talking about bring it down to 7%.

Even now, I know people here in the US who work for companies that manufacture in China who hate being sent to China for even 2 to 3 weeks at a time because of the things like pollution and lousy work environment, etc. They cant wait to get back when they are sent there. Some of them are even of Chinese origin.

Add in a rapidly aging population as a result of one child policy and a longer lifespan of people - China will have a some major issues supporting a vast retired population drawing. The next generation will also demand more freedom and will not march to the tune of the CCP anymore.

So China has 3 major challenges -

1) It has to slow down growth and clean up all that industrial polluted wasteland/rivers while still keeping unemployment low as wages go up, and real-estate prices go crazy.
2) It has to become a freer and more open, less corrupt society or it risks chaos.
3) It has to compete on innovation and great new products - not just copy and paste stuff.


There are lots of pundits who are writing the obituary of the US as a world power and the US certainly has its share of problems - but not like China's problems.
 

badguy2000

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China has about another 10 years of very low wages - then the days of paying young workers from the countryside USD $200 - 300 per month will be gone forever. In 10 years in China, it will probably cost a company like Foxconn USD$2000 per month. All the low tech stuff and cheap consumer electronics will disappear. Then China will have to compete with the best in the world on quality and innovation and not on price.

If you are gung-ho on China being number one; then you have to ask where are the major successes other than low tech exports. My theory is this rise in wages along with the massive environmental cost of breakneck growth with force it to slow its economy down to around 5% growth in GDP. The CCP guys are talking about bring it down to 7%.

Even now, I know people here in the US who work for companies that manufacture in China who hate being sent to China for even 2 to 3 weeks at a time because of the things like pollution and lousy work environment, etc. They cant wait to get back when they are sent there. Some of them are even of Chinese origin.

Add in a rapidly aging population as a result of one child policy and a longer lifespan of people - China will have a some major issues supporting a vast retired population drawing. The next generation will also demand more freedom and will not march to the tune of the CCP anymore.

So China has 3 major challenges -

1) It has to slow down growth and clean up all that industrial polluted wasteland/rivers while still keeping unemployment low as wages go up, and real-estate prices go crazy.
2) It has to become a freer and more open, less corrupt society or it risks chaos.
3) It has to compete on innovation and great new products - not just copy and paste stuff.


There are lots of pundits who are writing the obituary of the US as a world power and the US certainly has its share of problems - but not like China's problems.
when a Chinese countryside young boys can get a monthly salary of 2000$, then CHinese per capital nomonal GDP would already be 30K-40K USD,almost equal to that of most G7.

Considering the huge population of CHina, CHina nominal GDP would be > the combination of USD+EU+Japan at that time....

Thus,the dominance of west civilization would have end already....
 

Armand2REP

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when a Chinese countryside young boys can get a monthly salary of 2000$, then CHinese per capital nomonal GDP would already be 30K-40K USD,almost equal to that of most G7.

Considering the huge population of CHina, CHina nominal GDP would be > the combination of USD+EU+Japan at that time....

Thus,the dominance of west civilization would have end already....
When a Chinese country boy makes $2000 a month, China will be stripped of all natural resources, rivers dried up, half the arable land turned to desert and a blanket of smog so thick one cigarette would push you into carbon monoxide poisoning. Not to mention half of China's GDP would be going to importing materials to maintain their quality of life since they won't have any. The world's resources cannot absorb China's population reaching a 30-40k per cap nor can the Chinese land. Chinese resources cannot sustain the current standard of $4000.
 

badguy2000

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When a Chinese country boy makes $2000 a month, China will be stripped of all natural resources, rivers dried up, half the arable land turned to desert and a blanket of smog so thick one cigarette would push you into carbon monoxide poisoning. Not to mention half of China's GDP would be going to importing materials to maintain their quality of life since they won't have any. The world's resources cannot absorb China's population reaching a 30-40k per cap nor can the Chinese land. Chinese resources cannot sustain the current standard of $4000.
guy, the rise of Chinese life quality will come at the expense of the going-down of averal real life quality of west countries.

facing the competition from Chinese ,ordinary frenchmen will have to accept lower real salary,otherwise they would have to be unemployed,until new global economy balance appears.

in the future, the realy life quality of the ordinary people in west coutries,including you ,MR Armand,will go down.
 

jazzguy

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guy, the rise of Chinese life quality will come at the expense of the going-down of averal real life quality of west countries.

facing the competition from Chinese ,ordinary frenchmen will have to accept lower real salary,otherwise they would have to be unemployed,until new global economy balance appears.

in the future, the realy life quality of the ordinary people in west coutries,including you ,MR Armand,will go down.
Based on what I read from China 12 Five years plan, the average Chinese salary will be around 6000 to 8000 USD per year in 2015.
 

jazzguy

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when a Chinese countryside young boys can get a monthly salary of 2000$, then CHinese per capital nomonal GDP would already be 30K-40K USD,almost equal to that of most G7.

Considering the huge population of CHina, CHina nominal GDP would be > the combination of USD+EU+Japan at that time....

Thus,the dominance of west civilization would have end already....
China still has long way to go. The average salary in North America is about 70,000 USD annually. There is no relationship between democracy and prosperity. I have worked both in China and North America. My university classmates in China nowadays make about 20,000 USD to 100,000 USD annually depend on their positions and companies.
 

Armand2REP

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guy, the rise of Chinese life quality will come at the expense of the going-down of averal real life quality of west countries.

facing the competition from Chinese ,ordinary frenchmen will have to accept lower real salary,otherwise they would have to be unemployed,until new global economy balance appears.

in the future, the realy life quality of the ordinary people in west coutries,including you ,MR Armand,will go down.
guy, the rise of Chinese life quality is at the expense of the Chinese environment. Your energy reserves, water, and farmlands are disappearing at a staggering rate. The air pollution and water toxicity levels continue to rise despite CCPs feable efforts. Not only will you live in a toxic waste dump, you will be the most dependent nation in the world. This will happen well before a $30-40K per cap preventing you from ever reaching it.
 

redragon

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China still has long way to go. The average salary in North America is about 70,000 USD annually. There is no relationship between democracy and prosperity. I have worked both in China and North America. My university classmates in China nowadays make about 20,000 USD to 100,000 USD annually depend on their positions and companies.
where did you get this #?
 

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