bose
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Thanks Kunal... I was looking for them to show it to Chinese in another forum, who come up similar Indian POW's from 1962 war...
China-Vietnam War (1979~1989)
- Thread starter Kunal Biswas
- Start date
coccafedang
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I post some replies and stories here, but they haven't appeared... Why? where's the Mod?
coccafedang
Regular Member
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I try again...
Story of a VN-Sino war 1979 veteran, at Ha Giang frontline.
In 1979, I was a soldier of 5th battalion, 692th Regiment, 301th Divison, Capital Military Zone. We were sent to support militia troops in the frontline. When we arrived Bac Quang, 80km away from Ha Giang town, half of my regiment deserted. So scary... I was 17 then, so still agressive. From Ha Giang town, turn right to "Sky Gate" Quan Ba. This place was call "Gate of Death", cos China bombarded this place all day and night. We went to assemble place by walking. In the evening, all regiment stopped to have dinner. After finishing my meal, I and Toan brought canter and went to a spring nearby to get water (We wanted a hot tea cup). Suddenly, everythings were blown up... That was the bombardment of Chinese arty. I and Toan fell to the ground. I was so scary... could not breath. The bombardment stopped after 15'. Toan lied beside me, but he did not move anymore. He was gone...
Then, I had to lived there six months. We replaced the Dac Cong (VN special unit force), M113 Battalion. The terrain there was so odd. In chinese side, it was very sloping with a lot of big rocks. In our side was flat and empty. That was the reason why Chinese organized their troops in "3 men group" formation. That made our infantry crying...
In military tactics, each country chose their own strong force. USA chose airforce to control battlefield. Soviet chose missile. And China chose arty (artillery). Their tactics was arty, arty, arty and then, tank and infantry. Arty bombarded accummulately in important places. After 30' of arty's bombardment, infantry troops assaulted. That was the reason why Chinese like arty very much. In our army, there were some stories told that Chinese arty men were quite good, they could fire a bullet in to our arty's barrel. That was ridiculous. While firing, arty's reconnaisance men must be near target, to navigate. Sometimes, their arty fired at their reconnaisance men's hiding position. after the first arty's bombardment, I understood what a battlefield is. We quickly move to assemble position.
When I went to our position, it was weird! We, the new recruit, well-equiped, well-wearing, well-discipline. But in this place, the "old men" here looked like "jungle men". They have "3 NO":
1. No wearing new clothes (new clothes for dead only)
2. No haircut, no shaving beard (that meant "unlucky")
3. No hand-shaking, No saying goodbye (fearing that "no coming back")
We quicly moved into cellar. It was call "cellar", but I guessed if an arty's bullet fall into 10 "cellars" like this, we had no way to survive. My "cellarmate" was Chinh. He came from Hai Hung province. His only ambition was eating pig tripes... that was a dull men, I thought, hehe...
Chinh came here 3 months ago. He fought 5 battles. I asked him "Are you scary?". He said "Very. In the first battle, I was so fucking scary that could not fire. Hide in the trench, sticked my AK out, fire all cartridge..."
Chinh was 3 years older than me. He joined the army 3 years ago. He must be at his home, to be a farmer then. He said, in the day he finish his soldier time, he stayed at his platoon, to organized a "goodbye party", after 3 years "eat together, sleep together, traning together". No one can imagined Chinese could made trouble that night. All regiment turned to be ready for fighting. Everyone must stayed for fighting. So he must stayed here, in this "A-Cellar", with me, and the opposing mountain was Chinese land...
I was a rockie, a lot of things that I didn't know. Chinh told me everything. For exmaple, when I went out of my cellar, I had to wear a "electric rice-cooking pot" (VN call all kind of head's helmet like this – this was steel helmet), it was 1,4kg weight. My head was small, while this "pot" was too big for me (it was a Soviet helmet – Western man, all kind of Western things are big, lol)... so it could not fit. I thought that if only a small piece of rock fell into my helmet, I could be die cos my brain would be broken!
At the top of my cellar there was a 60mm mortal, with 2 mortal round coffins. Chinh told me must take all free time to sleep, sleep everytime if I could. Chinese didn't wait us awake and attacked then... Chinh checked his AK, rounds, cartridges, locked the safety lock, and then lie down, held his gun... Little moment later, I heard his snoring sound.
I walked out of my cellar, looked around other cellars... All cellars linked by tunnels and trenchs. I ran to some trenchs, seeked some friends. I saw some boy was crying... Hmm, I was scary, too, but not like them. My officer told me back to my trench. His voice was so gentle (I thought all officer always say loudly, but he didn't). I knew, in this situation, no one knew they could survive till tommorrow, so everyone needed each others, relied each others, so there was no militarist officer here...
That night, I could not sleep"¦ Not because of fear, cos I felt time was so precious. If I fell asleep, could I wake up in the next morning? I thought, and tried to open my eyes widely.
A silent night passed by"¦.
Chinh woke up in early morning. He stood up and"¦ made water infront of our cellar. One hand hold his "bird", the other hand threw mortal ball into 60mm mortal barrel. I startled at The sound of exlosion, took my "steel pot", rushed outside my cellar. Chinh laughed loudly, he told me "this is sporadic fire!". I said "Why do you do that? What a waste of mortal ball! If Chinese attack, we have no ball to play" He said "I must tell Chinese know this position is Vietnamese terriory". I looked around and see that all cellars did the same thing. That was funny!
When the sun rose, I climbed on top of my cellar and watched Chinese land. "Their moutains, their forest look alike our moutains, our forest, why do they want to invade? Why do they want to get more?" I thought.
8am. Assemble! My officer told us Chinese might attack. A platoon was required to move to opposing side, attack enemy's back if they assault. I was one member of that team. Chinh looked at me, maybe he worried about me then. He did not say goodbye, just told me "Be careful!"
We started going with a reconnaisance man. Our equipments were dried foods, 2 grenades, AK with 100 rounds.
Our reconnaisance man was Son "Turtoise", from Dan Phuong, Ha Tay province. His nick name came from his character"¦ "Think slowly, do slowly""¦ I wondered how he could be a reconnaisance man? He was in 72th Regiment before sent to our regiment. He came here some days ago. He was the only one who had map and compass and knew assemble place.
In the afternoon, we stopped, ate dried food. Son' face turned grey, I did not know he was tired or hungry? Then he told us moved on quickly. He told me going in back of formation and delete our trace. "F* it out, why do I have to do that?" I did not have any combat experience but I doubted something wrong happened.
It was midnight. We stopped in a valley. Our platoon distracted. No smoking, no cooking, no loud talking. I found Son "Turtoise". He was watching his map, holding a flash-lamp, which were covered by a black cloth, the light was so weak, just enough to see the map. I asked him "We are lost, aren't we?". Son surprised "How do you know?". I said "When you told me delete our trace and I saw your face, I doubted". He said "F*it out, we are in Chinese land, about 5km away from the border!". I was about to make water on my pant. If we faced Chinese then, we would be roasted meat! Son asked me "Should we told the truth to everybody?" I said "We must! Everybody must prepare!". Our platoon members, most of them were rockie, like me"¦ There were 4 or 5 guys fought some battles, we could not compare to anti-US veterans. Everybody was panic"¦ but after that, they became calm. I told them try to sleep. If we had to fight, we would fight, If we had to die, we would die. "Man's life, one is green glass, two is red chest" (VN old proverb, means: a man should live and die in honor).
Luckily, a quiet night in China mainland passed by"¦
In the next morning, we decided to move to the south. No compass, no map, just move to the south, we could go back to VN. Platoon's officer gave orders: " Complete Secret, try to avoid facing enemy. If we contact them, distract at once! If we are discovered, rockie must hold their fire, veterans fire first. Two hours later, we hear the sound of falling rock from a moutain nearby"¦ Everybody distracted immediately. We did not know Chinese see us or not"¦ Time may be stopped, everybody was nervous.
The sound of AK explosion torn the silence. What a pandemonium! Tao, a soldier from Phuc Tho province, was so scary that stuck his finger in his AK. Chinese discovered us. We and they didn't know about enemy force, how many of them? Who were they? Border guard, Infantry, or Moutain Infantry? After that AK's sound, we answered strongly. That time I understood why veterans must shoot first. When we hear the sound of AK' firing, we know the shooter is a rockie or a die hard man. If shooter fires all cartridge, they must be rockie. If shooter fires just 2 rounds a time, not slow, not fast"¦ it must be a veteran.
Chinese formation became confused. That was a Chinese company, garrisoned on flatside of this moutain. They were washing faces, cleaning teeth then. Maybe they came here last night, cos we din't meet them in the afternoon. I fired and moved continously. Ten minutes later, I wasn't scary anymore. I brought only 100 AK's rounds so I must save them. Taking enemy's weapons was impossible mission.
Chinese became stablize their formation. They knew we were outnumbered, so they started to attack. They shouted "Ta khoai, ta khoai" (Chinese: move quickly), the sound liked a crowded market.
We fired back and retreated. We had to rush, cos Chinese was moving to block our road. If they could do that, we would be killed one by one. We ran under, they ran on the side of moutain. That situation was very much alike American Action films. I, Luyen, Tao and 2 men stayed behind, to support others retreat. They gave us their weapons, so I didn't worry about lacking rounds. Tao threw his AK, held a RPK fired without aiming target. Luyen used his AK and a M-79. I used my AKM and B-41 (VN called RPG-7 as B-41). We fought Chinese in 1 hour. Luyen was hit in his arm. My "steel pot" was crush, I did not know when I was hit. How lucky I was, without my "steel pot", my head would be broken"¦
Story of a VN-Sino war 1979 veteran, at Ha Giang frontline.
In 1979, I was a soldier of 5th battalion, 692th Regiment, 301th Divison, Capital Military Zone. We were sent to support militia troops in the frontline. When we arrived Bac Quang, 80km away from Ha Giang town, half of my regiment deserted. So scary... I was 17 then, so still agressive. From Ha Giang town, turn right to "Sky Gate" Quan Ba. This place was call "Gate of Death", cos China bombarded this place all day and night. We went to assemble place by walking. In the evening, all regiment stopped to have dinner. After finishing my meal, I and Toan brought canter and went to a spring nearby to get water (We wanted a hot tea cup). Suddenly, everythings were blown up... That was the bombardment of Chinese arty. I and Toan fell to the ground. I was so scary... could not breath. The bombardment stopped after 15'. Toan lied beside me, but he did not move anymore. He was gone...
Then, I had to lived there six months. We replaced the Dac Cong (VN special unit force), M113 Battalion. The terrain there was so odd. In chinese side, it was very sloping with a lot of big rocks. In our side was flat and empty. That was the reason why Chinese organized their troops in "3 men group" formation. That made our infantry crying...
In military tactics, each country chose their own strong force. USA chose airforce to control battlefield. Soviet chose missile. And China chose arty (artillery). Their tactics was arty, arty, arty and then, tank and infantry. Arty bombarded accummulately in important places. After 30' of arty's bombardment, infantry troops assaulted. That was the reason why Chinese like arty very much. In our army, there were some stories told that Chinese arty men were quite good, they could fire a bullet in to our arty's barrel. That was ridiculous. While firing, arty's reconnaisance men must be near target, to navigate. Sometimes, their arty fired at their reconnaisance men's hiding position. after the first arty's bombardment, I understood what a battlefield is. We quickly move to assemble position.
When I went to our position, it was weird! We, the new recruit, well-equiped, well-wearing, well-discipline. But in this place, the "old men" here looked like "jungle men". They have "3 NO":
1. No wearing new clothes (new clothes for dead only)
2. No haircut, no shaving beard (that meant "unlucky")
3. No hand-shaking, No saying goodbye (fearing that "no coming back")
We quicly moved into cellar. It was call "cellar", but I guessed if an arty's bullet fall into 10 "cellars" like this, we had no way to survive. My "cellarmate" was Chinh. He came from Hai Hung province. His only ambition was eating pig tripes... that was a dull men, I thought, hehe...
Chinh came here 3 months ago. He fought 5 battles. I asked him "Are you scary?". He said "Very. In the first battle, I was so fucking scary that could not fire. Hide in the trench, sticked my AK out, fire all cartridge..."
Chinh was 3 years older than me. He joined the army 3 years ago. He must be at his home, to be a farmer then. He said, in the day he finish his soldier time, he stayed at his platoon, to organized a "goodbye party", after 3 years "eat together, sleep together, traning together". No one can imagined Chinese could made trouble that night. All regiment turned to be ready for fighting. Everyone must stayed for fighting. So he must stayed here, in this "A-Cellar", with me, and the opposing mountain was Chinese land...
I was a rockie, a lot of things that I didn't know. Chinh told me everything. For exmaple, when I went out of my cellar, I had to wear a "electric rice-cooking pot" (VN call all kind of head's helmet like this – this was steel helmet), it was 1,4kg weight. My head was small, while this "pot" was too big for me (it was a Soviet helmet – Western man, all kind of Western things are big, lol)... so it could not fit. I thought that if only a small piece of rock fell into my helmet, I could be die cos my brain would be broken!
At the top of my cellar there was a 60mm mortal, with 2 mortal round coffins. Chinh told me must take all free time to sleep, sleep everytime if I could. Chinese didn't wait us awake and attacked then... Chinh checked his AK, rounds, cartridges, locked the safety lock, and then lie down, held his gun... Little moment later, I heard his snoring sound.
I walked out of my cellar, looked around other cellars... All cellars linked by tunnels and trenchs. I ran to some trenchs, seeked some friends. I saw some boy was crying... Hmm, I was scary, too, but not like them. My officer told me back to my trench. His voice was so gentle (I thought all officer always say loudly, but he didn't). I knew, in this situation, no one knew they could survive till tommorrow, so everyone needed each others, relied each others, so there was no militarist officer here...
That night, I could not sleep"¦ Not because of fear, cos I felt time was so precious. If I fell asleep, could I wake up in the next morning? I thought, and tried to open my eyes widely.
A silent night passed by"¦.
Chinh woke up in early morning. He stood up and"¦ made water infront of our cellar. One hand hold his "bird", the other hand threw mortal ball into 60mm mortal barrel. I startled at The sound of exlosion, took my "steel pot", rushed outside my cellar. Chinh laughed loudly, he told me "this is sporadic fire!". I said "Why do you do that? What a waste of mortal ball! If Chinese attack, we have no ball to play" He said "I must tell Chinese know this position is Vietnamese terriory". I looked around and see that all cellars did the same thing. That was funny!
When the sun rose, I climbed on top of my cellar and watched Chinese land. "Their moutains, their forest look alike our moutains, our forest, why do they want to invade? Why do they want to get more?" I thought.
8am. Assemble! My officer told us Chinese might attack. A platoon was required to move to opposing side, attack enemy's back if they assault. I was one member of that team. Chinh looked at me, maybe he worried about me then. He did not say goodbye, just told me "Be careful!"
We started going with a reconnaisance man. Our equipments were dried foods, 2 grenades, AK with 100 rounds.
Our reconnaisance man was Son "Turtoise", from Dan Phuong, Ha Tay province. His nick name came from his character"¦ "Think slowly, do slowly""¦ I wondered how he could be a reconnaisance man? He was in 72th Regiment before sent to our regiment. He came here some days ago. He was the only one who had map and compass and knew assemble place.
In the afternoon, we stopped, ate dried food. Son' face turned grey, I did not know he was tired or hungry? Then he told us moved on quickly. He told me going in back of formation and delete our trace. "F* it out, why do I have to do that?" I did not have any combat experience but I doubted something wrong happened.
It was midnight. We stopped in a valley. Our platoon distracted. No smoking, no cooking, no loud talking. I found Son "Turtoise". He was watching his map, holding a flash-lamp, which were covered by a black cloth, the light was so weak, just enough to see the map. I asked him "We are lost, aren't we?". Son surprised "How do you know?". I said "When you told me delete our trace and I saw your face, I doubted". He said "F*it out, we are in Chinese land, about 5km away from the border!". I was about to make water on my pant. If we faced Chinese then, we would be roasted meat! Son asked me "Should we told the truth to everybody?" I said "We must! Everybody must prepare!". Our platoon members, most of them were rockie, like me"¦ There were 4 or 5 guys fought some battles, we could not compare to anti-US veterans. Everybody was panic"¦ but after that, they became calm. I told them try to sleep. If we had to fight, we would fight, If we had to die, we would die. "Man's life, one is green glass, two is red chest" (VN old proverb, means: a man should live and die in honor).
Luckily, a quiet night in China mainland passed by"¦
In the next morning, we decided to move to the south. No compass, no map, just move to the south, we could go back to VN. Platoon's officer gave orders: " Complete Secret, try to avoid facing enemy. If we contact them, distract at once! If we are discovered, rockie must hold their fire, veterans fire first. Two hours later, we hear the sound of falling rock from a moutain nearby"¦ Everybody distracted immediately. We did not know Chinese see us or not"¦ Time may be stopped, everybody was nervous.
The sound of AK explosion torn the silence. What a pandemonium! Tao, a soldier from Phuc Tho province, was so scary that stuck his finger in his AK. Chinese discovered us. We and they didn't know about enemy force, how many of them? Who were they? Border guard, Infantry, or Moutain Infantry? After that AK's sound, we answered strongly. That time I understood why veterans must shoot first. When we hear the sound of AK' firing, we know the shooter is a rockie or a die hard man. If shooter fires all cartridge, they must be rockie. If shooter fires just 2 rounds a time, not slow, not fast"¦ it must be a veteran.
Chinese formation became confused. That was a Chinese company, garrisoned on flatside of this moutain. They were washing faces, cleaning teeth then. Maybe they came here last night, cos we din't meet them in the afternoon. I fired and moved continously. Ten minutes later, I wasn't scary anymore. I brought only 100 AK's rounds so I must save them. Taking enemy's weapons was impossible mission.
Chinese became stablize their formation. They knew we were outnumbered, so they started to attack. They shouted "Ta khoai, ta khoai" (Chinese: move quickly), the sound liked a crowded market.
We fired back and retreated. We had to rush, cos Chinese was moving to block our road. If they could do that, we would be killed one by one. We ran under, they ran on the side of moutain. That situation was very much alike American Action films. I, Luyen, Tao and 2 men stayed behind, to support others retreat. They gave us their weapons, so I didn't worry about lacking rounds. Tao threw his AK, held a RPK fired without aiming target. Luyen used his AK and a M-79. I used my AKM and B-41 (VN called RPG-7 as B-41). We fought Chinese in 1 hour. Luyen was hit in his arm. My "steel pot" was crush, I did not know when I was hit. How lucky I was, without my "steel pot", my head would be broken"¦
Last edited:
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Members with less than 10 posts cannot post links in their posts otherwise they will be invisible unless approved by moderators. This was a measure to stop spam. Your posts are approved now. Please check.I post some replies and stories here, but they haven't appeared... Why? where's the Mod?
kickok1975
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coccafedang, thanks for your story in the eyes of other side. Please ignore other non-topic related comments and continue your point of view.
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China attacked Vietnam because of Vietnam's 1978 invasion and occupation of Cambodia that overthrew the rule of the PRC-backed Khmer Rouge.
China captured the northern heights of Lan Song wanting to lure the Vietnamese troops in Cambodia, but the Vietnamese did not fall to the bait.
China failed to achieve her strategic objective of forcing Vietnam from Cambodia. The Vietnamese troops remained in Cambodia till 1989.
China, however reduced the offensive capability of Vietnam along the Sino-Vietnam border by destroying everything along border.
Vietnam withdrew from Cambodia not because of China, but because of international pressure.
coccafedang
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There are a lot of things about this war...
To young Vietnamese, this war is still in a myth... They just know that in the past, China invaded VN in 1979 and was defeated.
The informations about this war are limitted... The VN's goverment don't deal with this war too much... Because the relationship between two countries has been improved a lot, and VN's goverment don't want to recall the war...
When the war happened, I was a child... I could remember that time, my father - a 12 years experience veteran in anti-US war - was called to rejoin the army, but luckily, they said that he was old (he was 41 years old then) and he could rest, did not have to go to frontline again...
My brother, a cadet from Academy of Military Politic, was sent to Ha Giang province to "practise" from 1984-1988. He did not told us too much about the conflict, just said "dangerous, hardship, some friends of mine died"...
From 1991 till now, the war seemed to be forgotten...
Many Chinese that I met said that Chinese Invasion in 1979 was right. VN was a bold-face brother, who betray friend, Vietnam wanted to build a Federation of Indochina, by invading Cambodia and Laos, and Vietnam had a unforgotten lesson.
But they did not know that after the anti-USA war, VN people and its goverment did not want to have any war. To us, that was enough. The economy, the infrastructure was devastated... What we needed just peace, to rebuild our country. Fullfilling people's stomatch was more important than establishing a "Federation of something"... In both war (vs Pol Pot and China), VN was provoked and had to be on wars... You all here, someone lives in USA, someone lives in India, others live in China, Pakistan, you got the informations from your goverment, your broadcasting firms, YOU DID NOT LIVE IN VN THAT TIME, BUT I DID.
I just have full information about this war when we have Internet connection, and in recent time, some newspaper are allowed to publish the books about the war, on some forum, I had stories from memoirs of veterans... I have condition to talk with some of my neighbors, who was veteran from that war... And now I want to share my knowledge of the war to you, and hope you will have more information about that and you could have a different view...
This is one of veteran's forum about this war, if somebody knows Vietnamese, let's join: Biên giá»›i phÃa Bắc 1979-1989, những hình ảnh từ phÃa VN/s: I collected stories from some veterans and post here without their permisson (cos they can not read English), and my English is not good (I don't have conditions to use English regularly) so I am not self confident very much... Hope that you will support me!
To young Vietnamese, this war is still in a myth... They just know that in the past, China invaded VN in 1979 and was defeated.
The informations about this war are limitted... The VN's goverment don't deal with this war too much... Because the relationship between two countries has been improved a lot, and VN's goverment don't want to recall the war...
When the war happened, I was a child... I could remember that time, my father - a 12 years experience veteran in anti-US war - was called to rejoin the army, but luckily, they said that he was old (he was 41 years old then) and he could rest, did not have to go to frontline again...
My brother, a cadet from Academy of Military Politic, was sent to Ha Giang province to "practise" from 1984-1988. He did not told us too much about the conflict, just said "dangerous, hardship, some friends of mine died"...
From 1991 till now, the war seemed to be forgotten...
Many Chinese that I met said that Chinese Invasion in 1979 was right. VN was a bold-face brother, who betray friend, Vietnam wanted to build a Federation of Indochina, by invading Cambodia and Laos, and Vietnam had a unforgotten lesson.
But they did not know that after the anti-USA war, VN people and its goverment did not want to have any war. To us, that was enough. The economy, the infrastructure was devastated... What we needed just peace, to rebuild our country. Fullfilling people's stomatch was more important than establishing a "Federation of something"... In both war (vs Pol Pot and China), VN was provoked and had to be on wars... You all here, someone lives in USA, someone lives in India, others live in China, Pakistan, you got the informations from your goverment, your broadcasting firms, YOU DID NOT LIVE IN VN THAT TIME, BUT I DID.
I just have full information about this war when we have Internet connection, and in recent time, some newspaper are allowed to publish the books about the war, on some forum, I had stories from memoirs of veterans... I have condition to talk with some of my neighbors, who was veteran from that war... And now I want to share my knowledge of the war to you, and hope you will have more information about that and you could have a different view...
This is one of veteran's forum about this war, if somebody knows Vietnamese, let's join: Biên giá»›i phÃa Bắc 1979-1989, những hình ảnh từ phÃa VN/s: I collected stories from some veterans and post here without their permisson (cos they can not read English), and my English is not good (I don't have conditions to use English regularly) so I am not self confident very much... Hope that you will support me!
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coccafedang wrote:
Did not VN intervene in Cambodia because of the genocide policy of the khmer rouge?
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kickok1975
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Again, thank you. I went to your recommended website but can't read because it's in Vietnamese.
coccafedang
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The VN goverment and all VN media said the reasons why VN invaded Cambodia were: protecting VN's land and helping Cambodia getting out of genocide policy of Khmer Rouge... but by asking people in South-west provinces and some veteran from "K frontline" (K=Kampuchea), they all said the only reason why VN attacked Cambodia was just overthrowing Pol Pot regime, establishing a pro-Vietnam goverment, not for any "Federation of something", but for peace of VN. Because as long as Pol Pot regime existed, it would still attack, invade VN and kill VN people (and even their people)...
Actually there was't any good purpose of "liberating Cambodian from genocide regime", cos VN was too poor then, she could not feed herself, while the big, rich countries like USA, Soviet, France, Britain... did nothing and China feed Pol Pot regime. So the only purpose of VN was just pushing Khmer Rouge as far from VN's land as good... And that was the reason why VN had to maintain her army in Cambodia until 1989, cos Khmer Rouge was still in Thailand, got support from China, Thailand and USA as well... They attacked continously from Thai to Cambodia (the situation like US in Afganistan now, but US is rich, he has ally army there, and no one support Taliban - some says they have supports from Iran or Pakistan - but I think that's not considerable, while Pol Pot has a lot of weapon, from small arms to tanks, APC, AA missiles... from China, and VN had to fight PP alone)...
Have you ever heard about "Ba Chuc massacre"... this was one of many massacre made by PP from 1977-1978... You can learn about it here : Ba Chuc Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaMEANWHILE - When the Khmer Rouge came to kill in Vietnam - NYTimes.comBut, in general speaking, the invasion of VN liberated millions of Cambodia from killing fields, from death. Hun Sen, the prime minister of Cambodia, said:" When the Nation of Cambodia seemed to be on the brink of disapearing, a Saint came to help us surviving... He was not USA, Soviet or Western Europe, he was our poor neighboring friend - Vietnam"
Actually there was't any good purpose of "liberating Cambodian from genocide regime", cos VN was too poor then, she could not feed herself, while the big, rich countries like USA, Soviet, France, Britain... did nothing and China feed Pol Pot regime. So the only purpose of VN was just pushing Khmer Rouge as far from VN's land as good... And that was the reason why VN had to maintain her army in Cambodia until 1989, cos Khmer Rouge was still in Thailand, got support from China, Thailand and USA as well... They attacked continously from Thai to Cambodia (the situation like US in Afganistan now, but US is rich, he has ally army there, and no one support Taliban - some says they have supports from Iran or Pakistan - but I think that's not considerable, while Pol Pot has a lot of weapon, from small arms to tanks, APC, AA missiles... from China, and VN had to fight PP alone)...
Have you ever heard about "Ba Chuc massacre"... this was one of many massacre made by PP from 1977-1978... You can learn about it here : Ba Chuc Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaMEANWHILE - When the Khmer Rouge came to kill in Vietnam - NYTimes.comBut, in general speaking, the invasion of VN liberated millions of Cambodia from killing fields, from death. Hun Sen, the prime minister of Cambodia, said:" When the Nation of Cambodia seemed to be on the brink of disapearing, a Saint came to help us surviving... He was not USA, Soviet or Western Europe, he was our poor neighboring friend - Vietnam"
coccafedang
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========
Yes, as my recommendation... But you found a lot of pictures there, did'nt you? And if you like, you can register to be a member and talk to them by English... In that forum there are a lot member who can use fluently English, Chinese Mandarin or Russian
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coccafedang
In the Sino Vietnam war, China merely was not able to fulfil it national and strategic aim.
China did capture some areas of Vietnam in the North.
However, when China realised that Vietnam troops in Cambodia would not fall to the ruse, the casualties were mounting, the futility of pressing the war any further, the Chinese did what they normally do, withdraw to gain moral ascendancy. They did the same in the war, but they also ensured that the ravaged the countryside so as to destroy the Vietnamese infrastructure and the Vietnam capability to launch a riposte. This destruction is what is called 'scotched earth' policy.
One does not have to be in the thick of a battle to understand a battle. In fact, even those who are thick in battle do not understand all the nuances of that particular battle or the culminating effect of the whole set of battles because one is totally muddled and merely responding to one's training and national fervour.
It is when the battles are over and the records are gone through and the various anecdotes analysed in a military manner, can one get a glimpse of the issues involved and the conduct of battle. It is then weighed with the versions of the adversary which is available, covertly and overtly. That having been done, some idea of a battle is feasible.
You say the War is a myth to you. Maybe. To your children, it will be history and there will be all possibility that it would have been tweaked to make it 'colourful' and palatable from your country's point of view. The same would be applicable to China too.
It is incorrect to feel that we glean our facts from government sources or parrot our govt's views. In a democracy, such is not the case. The newspapers are not controlled by the Govt. They are controlled by revenue generation impetus. Therefore, they will hardly give the govt standpoint and instead will draw in commentaries from various experts.
There are 'think tanks' in most countries which has very eminent personalities from all fields. They have built up their reputation over time. They would hardly ruin it by being a govt 'mouthpiece'.
If one got the facts only from Govts, then to the world Dien ben Phu would have been a 'strategic withdrawal' and not the fiasco that happened. Nor would we know that the French artillery Colonel, taking the blame and having been 'dishonoured' by the defeat, shoot himself and commit what the Japanese call harakiri. And guess what? I was not there!
In the Sino Vietnam war, China merely was not able to fulfil it national and strategic aim.
China did capture some areas of Vietnam in the North.
However, when China realised that Vietnam troops in Cambodia would not fall to the ruse, the casualties were mounting, the futility of pressing the war any further, the Chinese did what they normally do, withdraw to gain moral ascendancy. They did the same in the war, but they also ensured that the ravaged the countryside so as to destroy the Vietnamese infrastructure and the Vietnam capability to launch a riposte. This destruction is what is called 'scotched earth' policy.
One does not have to be in the thick of a battle to understand a battle. In fact, even those who are thick in battle do not understand all the nuances of that particular battle or the culminating effect of the whole set of battles because one is totally muddled and merely responding to one's training and national fervour.
It is when the battles are over and the records are gone through and the various anecdotes analysed in a military manner, can one get a glimpse of the issues involved and the conduct of battle. It is then weighed with the versions of the adversary which is available, covertly and overtly. That having been done, some idea of a battle is feasible.
You say the War is a myth to you. Maybe. To your children, it will be history and there will be all possibility that it would have been tweaked to make it 'colourful' and palatable from your country's point of view. The same would be applicable to China too.
It is incorrect to feel that we glean our facts from government sources or parrot our govt's views. In a democracy, such is not the case. The newspapers are not controlled by the Govt. They are controlled by revenue generation impetus. Therefore, they will hardly give the govt standpoint and instead will draw in commentaries from various experts.
There are 'think tanks' in most countries which has very eminent personalities from all fields. They have built up their reputation over time. They would hardly ruin it by being a govt 'mouthpiece'.
If one got the facts only from Govts, then to the world Dien ben Phu would have been a 'strategic withdrawal' and not the fiasco that happened. Nor would we know that the French artillery Colonel, taking the blame and having been 'dishonoured' by the defeat, shoot himself and commit what the Japanese call harakiri. And guess what? I was not there!
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coccafedang
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Yes, I don't deny that VN is still a poor country, and China is on her way to be a super power nation... Till now, there are a lot of things VN must learn from China, especialy in growing economy and metropolis management. (I have been to China 3 times to attend some summits, classes of metropolis management). But we should not refer it here, if we do not want to off-topic...
By two wars from two sides, China was succesful in making VN poorer...
But, do you ever think that China was just a tool of USA that time, when USA used China to revenge their lost in VN... Cos from the time 1978-1988, China got a lot of economic and technical support from USA...
p/s: about the girls: all VN girls who were "illegal sold" to China are very poor, they want to marry a foreign husband to improve their lives, but, most of them were sold to Chinese husbands who lives in rural, who were enen poorer than VN girls (most of Chinese rural I visited are poorer than VN rural, I bet), and these girls became "common wife" of 2-3-4 brothers, cos these men were too poor and they could not marry a Chinese girl...
about prostitute: last year, in December, I spent one month in C.P.D (or C.B.D? area) - Beijing. I had some business there. I spent 2000 Yuan to have one night with a Chinese student girl, who came from Guizhou. She was nice, smart, and could speak a little English (supprise!). She said she had to do that work to pay her fees for life in Beijing as : renting house, meal, buying clothes... Her parents was too poor and so she must feed herself...
So I think that we still have a lot of thing to do to improve our people's lives, fellow!
By two wars from two sides, China was succesful in making VN poorer...
But, do you ever think that China was just a tool of USA that time, when USA used China to revenge their lost in VN... Cos from the time 1978-1988, China got a lot of economic and technical support from USA...
p/s: about the girls: all VN girls who were "illegal sold" to China are very poor, they want to marry a foreign husband to improve their lives, but, most of them were sold to Chinese husbands who lives in rural, who were enen poorer than VN girls (most of Chinese rural I visited are poorer than VN rural, I bet), and these girls became "common wife" of 2-3-4 brothers, cos these men were too poor and they could not marry a Chinese girl...
about prostitute: last year, in December, I spent one month in C.P.D (or C.B.D? area) - Beijing. I had some business there. I spent 2000 Yuan to have one night with a Chinese student girl, who came from Guizhou. She was nice, smart, and could speak a little English (supprise!). She said she had to do that work to pay her fees for life in Beijing as : renting house, meal, buying clothes... Her parents was too poor and so she must feed herself...
So I think that we still have a lot of thing to do to improve our people's lives, fellow!
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agentperry
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not always big big things are required to bring in big changes. usa and ussr spent trilions of dollar in making and maintaining their huge armed forces but in the end it took just 5 billion dollar budget of cia to hammer the existence of ussr forever.
vn already have will power they just need few good stuff like manpad and anti-tank missile to hit pla and plaaf and make them bleed. im sure if vn can somehow hit out at 100 heli/aircrafts and uavs of pla, plaaf and plan then chinese will go on defensive side. limiting the chinese supplies by brahmos attack on plan ships and guerrilla on chinese basecamps will make china bleed.
vn play their part we play our game, and see red flag goes down burning in south china sea.
vn already have will power they just need few good stuff like manpad and anti-tank missile to hit pla and plaaf and make them bleed. im sure if vn can somehow hit out at 100 heli/aircrafts and uavs of pla, plaaf and plan then chinese will go on defensive side. limiting the chinese supplies by brahmos attack on plan ships and guerrilla on chinese basecamps will make china bleed.
vn play their part we play our game, and see red flag goes down burning in south china sea.
coccafedang
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@Ray: I don't know what do you exactly mention in your post? Or you just don't understand what I want to say...
I don't say about military analysing... I just want to say that Viet Nam did not want to make a war, with Cambodia, and especialy China. Viet Nam did not intend to establish one Federation of Indochina... Vietnam had to make war because we had no way out... I said that because before registering this forum, I was member of many forums like china-defense, sinodefence, militaryphotos.net or network54, and I hear many times from these forum's member that Viet Nam made 2 war because VN wanted to be a tiger of SE Asia, VN wanted a Federation of Indochina, VN was so self confident and very agressive... In fact, at that time, what we wanted just simple thing: had enough food, had enough clothes, had peace life... No one wanted a war anymore, and our leader knew that clearly... And I, as a VN people who lived in that hard time, now has condition to research information about the war, from many aspects, many points of view, can understand fully...
I don't say about military analysing... I just want to say that Viet Nam did not want to make a war, with Cambodia, and especialy China. Viet Nam did not intend to establish one Federation of Indochina... Vietnam had to make war because we had no way out... I said that because before registering this forum, I was member of many forums like china-defense, sinodefence, militaryphotos.net or network54, and I hear many times from these forum's member that Viet Nam made 2 war because VN wanted to be a tiger of SE Asia, VN wanted a Federation of Indochina, VN was so self confident and very agressive... In fact, at that time, what we wanted just simple thing: had enough food, had enough clothes, had peace life... No one wanted a war anymore, and our leader knew that clearly... And I, as a VN people who lived in that hard time, now has condition to research information about the war, from many aspects, many points of view, can understand fully...
amoy
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Personally I feel Viets are great people. When I visited the Military Museum in Hanoi I was terrified, to be frank, when an old man (?a veteran) suddenly held up my hand and shouted Ho Chi Minh, Mao Zedong. On a train I met an engineer who studied in Tangshan China back in 1970s.
Why did VN turn her back on China shortly after Viet reunification? Let us try to understand Le Duan and Viet Cong leadership as if in their shoes. I feel it's just natural for Le Duan to take side with USSR (the stronger and the more capable of continuous support) when the top patrons China and USSR broke away as it was deemed in the best interest of VN. Also there're clues in Le Duan's speeches/memoire - There always had been 'distrust' in between deep rooted even during the honey moon. Le Duan accused in private Zhou Enlai of 'forcing' Viet Cong to accept Geneva Agreement back in 1952 that divided VN into 2, North and South. Le had been wary and bitter of China's intent to 'compromise' with the US for fear that VN could have been 'sacrificed' for China's interest (China did nego secretly with the US for normalizing ties in 1970s). Le complained China turned out to be a road block for VN's reunification as China was 'intimidated' and was determined to accomplish the goal on his own.
The schism didn't erupt when Uncle Ho was still alive.
That sounds like a typical tragedy of 'marriage of convenience', finally succumbed to each's 'national interest' (((*o*))), followed by freeze-frame impressions of masses of 'boat people' (many Chinese) in exodus from VN persecution, and VN's tedious 'salvation' ordeal in Cambodia.
Every cloud has a silver lining - King Sihanouk became PRC's 'longstanding' friend
And all political factions in Cambodia are closer to China than to VN.
Why did VN turn her back on China shortly after Viet reunification? Let us try to understand Le Duan and Viet Cong leadership as if in their shoes. I feel it's just natural for Le Duan to take side with USSR (the stronger and the more capable of continuous support) when the top patrons China and USSR broke away as it was deemed in the best interest of VN. Also there're clues in Le Duan's speeches/memoire - There always had been 'distrust' in between deep rooted even during the honey moon. Le Duan accused in private Zhou Enlai of 'forcing' Viet Cong to accept Geneva Agreement back in 1952 that divided VN into 2, North and South. Le had been wary and bitter of China's intent to 'compromise' with the US for fear that VN could have been 'sacrificed' for China's interest (China did nego secretly with the US for normalizing ties in 1970s). Le complained China turned out to be a road block for VN's reunification as China was 'intimidated' and was determined to accomplish the goal on his own.
The schism didn't erupt when Uncle Ho was still alive.
That sounds like a typical tragedy of 'marriage of convenience', finally succumbed to each's 'national interest' (((*o*))), followed by freeze-frame impressions of masses of 'boat people' (many Chinese) in exodus from VN persecution, and VN's tedious 'salvation' ordeal in Cambodia.
Every cloud has a silver lining - King Sihanouk became PRC's 'longstanding' friend
And all political factions in Cambodia are closer to China than to VN.
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