China to co-produce six AIP subs for Pakistan

Discussion in 'West Asia & Africa' started by LETHALFORCE, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110121/nation.htm#4

    New Delhi, January 20
    Even as India has announced its intent to have new generation diesel-electric submarines, Pakistan has gone ahead and signed a deal with long-standing ally China to produce submarines with the same technology that India wants.

    The Pakistan Navy and China’s Ship Building Corporation signed a deal that got the seal of finality during the visit of Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to Pakistan last December. Indian security agencies in know of the matter have cautioned the government that this could tilt the balance in favour of the Pakistan Navy in the Arabian Sea.

    India is looking to spend Rs 50,000 crore to acquire six new diesel-electric submarines that will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology to boost operational capabilities. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to surface every couple of days for oxygen to recharge their batteries. A submarine using AIP technology can stay submerged for 12-15 days at a stretch, thus increasing its capacity to hunt down enemy warships without being detected. Nuclear powered submarines can stay underwater for even longer periods.

    Under the latest agreement, China will co-produce six AIP technology submarines with Pakistan. Currently, the neighbouring navy has only one submarine -- PNS Hamza. Pakistan is also looking at an AIP system produced by a French or German maker to fit on to the Chinese made hull of the vessel, said an official.

    What is worrying for India is the known pace of Chinese construction. China could well provide three-four new generation AIP technology submarines to the neigbouring country within two years. The Chinese had supplied four frigates to the Pakistan Navy in 18 months flat! The two nations have also co-produced the single-engine J-17 fighter that was inducted into the Pakistan Air Force last summer.

    For India, it could take upto five years to induct its first such submarine, as it will have to go through the process of trying out offers from various global bidders before ordering the vessels.

    The Indian Navy has a bigger fleet in terms of number but it is dwindling and will be down to eight conventional diesel-electric vessels by 2015. By then, the first of the six under-construction Scorpene submarines will join the fleet followed by five more till 2018. The AIP technology vessels will follow later. Going by estimates, Pakistan would complete the induction of its fleet of AIP technology vessels by the time India starts off with its line of such submarines.

    However, India will maintain its edge over Pakistan in case of nuclear-powered submarines. It hopes to induct the Akula-II Class attack submarine K-152 Nerpa on a 10-year lease from Russia in the next few weeks while the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant is expected to be inducted by early-2012.

    Indian Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma has already declared that nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant would be on ‘deterrent patrol’ to provide the ability of a retaliatory ‘second strike’ if the country faces a nuclear attack.

    What Worries India

    * The Chinese are known for their pace of construction and could provide three-four new generation submarines to Pakistan within two years.
    * It could take India upto five years to induct the first of its diesel-electric submarine.
    * The Indian Navy fleet is dwindling and will be down to eight conventional diesel-electric vessels by 2015.
     
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  3. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    take it easy.. china-made are all valueless crappy copyrats....
     
  4. maomao

    maomao Veteran Hunter of Maleecha Senior Member

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    Silly gal has become an intelligent lady.....me like it so much!! :D
     
  5. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories477.htm



    Raytheon unveils a new Anti-submarine weapon

    Fish Hawk, a wing kit system, has been purpose built for the US Navy's High Altitude ASW Weapons Capability (HAAWC) program, specifically with the new P-8 Poseidon in mind, eight variants of which (P8-I) have also been ordered by India.


    This tested and proven weapon system enables maritime patrol operators to release a torpedo at high altitude, with a greatly extended launch envelope. The system then flies an optimum Global Positioning System and Inertial Navigation System (GPS/INS) guided flight profile to a precise splash-point to seek out, engage and destroy a threat submarine.

    Fish Hawk will be available to India, subject to bilateral government negotiations between Washington and New Delhi.

    Fish HawkT currently combines this high altitude precision delivery capability with the new MK 54 lightweight torpedo. Upon being released from the aircraft, Fish Hawk's pivot wing deploys to place the system into its GPS/INS guided flight profile. The system glides accurately to the targeted location using the Fish Hawk's integrated guidance system and articulated tail fins that provide its highly responsive directional control.

    Once the system descends to the designated target location at a much lower altitude, the wing kit releases the torpedo, and a small parachute deploys to decelerate and stabilize the torpedo for water entry.

    Following water entry, the MK 54's sophisticated inertial systems and sonar accurately detect and guide the torpedo to its intended target.

    "Raytheon conducted a highly successful flight test demonstration of its new Fish Hawk weapon system in March 2008", according to Mark Borup, a Sr. Manager for Raytheon Missile Systems Business Development. "The Mk-54 configured demonstration met or exceeded all planned test points, proving Fish Hawk's effectiveness in meeting this critical naval requirement. The test highlighted Fish Hawk's impressive stand-off range and increased accuracy (CEP) - with a full 360 degree off bore-sight capability".

    This proven high altitude solution significantly enhances aircraft survivability and time-to-engagement, while extending on-station deployment of advanced intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) systems that characterize the future of ASW. "Fish Hawk's new streamlined design, with low profile pivot wing, achieves the needed size and clearance to maximize the payload capacity of P-8 and other potential ASW platforms," he added.

    Fish Hawk's unique modularity facilitates the incorporation of mature, proven components from other highly successful Raytheon programs in production, e.g., the Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW) and Excalibur, offering an affordable low-risk solution with demonstrated performance and reliability", Borup said.

    Using mature, proven components, Fish Hawk is guided to the target area by a highly integrated and reliable guidance system. Fish Hawk receives the targeting information in the preplanned mode from the ASW aircraft controller and gathers data while airborne through on-board sensors or other third-party targeting assets. Borup continued, "With the incorporation of mature, proven components , Fish Hawk represents an affordable, low-risk solution to the long-range, high-altitude ASW requirement".

    Fish Hawk's system modularity also offers advantages in tailoring options for customer requirements and cost. One such advantage is a rapid path to Net enabled capability, should customer needs dictate.

    Raytheon's businesses and partners are strategically aligned and fully committed to the Navy's P-8/sensors (Space and Airborne Systems), Mk-54 (Integrated Defense Systems), and HAAWC/Fish Hawk (Raytheon Missile Systems) programs. "These synergistic programs and resources ensure our ability to meet the most demanding customer requirements with affordable, fully integrated solutions", Borup suggested.

    "As naval forces prepare for the future of the ASW fight, Raytheon provides the accuracy, lethality, reliability and affordability to make long-range submarine engagement a reality", Borup said "We provide the eyes and the teeth (detection and lethality) for Boeing's next generation maritime patrol aircraft, the P-8 Poseidon".

    In early 2009, India signed a $2.1 billion dollar contract with Boeing for the initial purchase of the P-8I. Raytheon is a strong contender for the P-8I APY-10 radar system. Raytheon Space and Airborne Systems (SAS) is currently teamed with Boeing's US Navy P-8 program to provide the crucial APY-10 radar system.

    The APY-10 is a premier sensor for small-target detention in both maritime and overland environments. This integral system provides superior maritime, littoral and overland surveillance capability for assured ASW, Anti -Surface Warfare (ASuW) and intelligence, reconnaissance and surveillance mission support.

    In today's changing high-tech world, new, more potent threats are emerging.

    Slow, quiet, diesel submarines, for example, are now operating in shallow-water, littoral areas. As a result, lightweight torpedoes designed to defeat high-speed, nuclear-powered submarines in open-ocean environments are only part of the solution. Navies now need a lightweight torpedo capable of delivering a devastating blow to submarine threats in both deep and shallow water - and in various acoustic environments. One proven solution is the U.S. Navy's MK 54.

    In addition, the emerging and rapidly proliferating subsurface and surface to air threats necessitate the stand-off ranges and increased precision and lethality that Fish Hawk brings to the Mk 54 torpedo.

    Raytheon's MK 54 is the only lightweight torpedo capable of effectively striking any target in the world's oceans, regardless of water depth. The Mk 54's state-of-the-art Sonar has evolved from the technology demonstrated in the MK 50, which was proven through thousands of at-sea runs conducted against real submarines in countered scenarios and all environmental conditions. The sonar nose construction provides low array self-noise; the acoustic array and digital beamformer provide superior performance in littoral areas; and the transmitter flexibility and dual-band receiver provide extensive and effective volume coverage.

    "For more than 25 years, Raytheon has collaborated with the government of India and been a trusted and valued partner and technology supplier in many areas. Raytheon has performed well and delivered successfully on all of its commitments to India during this time. Raytheon has recently initiated several innovative programs with India that will continue to expand and deepen our valued partnership in the future, and will enhance our collective positioning in the global marketplace.

    Raytheon Company, with 2009 sales of $25 billion, is a technology and innovation leader specializing in defense, homeland security and other government markets throughout the world. With a history of innovation spanning 88 years, Raytheon provides state-of-the-art electronics, mission systems integration and other capabilities in the areas of sensing; effects; and command, control, communications and intelligence systems, as well as a broad range of mission support services.
     
  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It does not matter.

    The bottom line is that the submarines are not produced without money.

    If Pakistan pays for them, the population starves.

    If Pakistan does not pay and China gives them gratis, China's advancement suffers.

    China's aim is to be a challenger to the US.
     
  7. Minghegy

    Minghegy Regular Member

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    This news will make Russian happy.
     
  8. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    what about us

    china pkistan nexus is really dangerous for us
     
  9. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Let the submarines from blueprints turn into reality.

    It takes years to build a submarine.

    The US is already out to encircle China.

    Let the submarines cross the Straits of Malacca.

    By that time, India will buy many more to take them on. We are not a bankrupt nation, after all!

    If we did not have money, then we would have not gone organising the largest defence deal of the world, which has all nations hot on our heels to see to whom we nod!

    True the Pak China nexus is disturbing, but I learn (I am no economist) that China's economy is but a bubble. If that is what it is, then the submarines are mirages.
     
  10. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    well sorry i feel same old lines that why we are behind then china we have to open our eyes and not wait for there production we have to take the steps for our security

    can you tell me how many subs we have any how many we need to counter both the enemy

    dont you think we are moving in circle without policy

    yes we are organising biggest deffence deal but how much time it taking why we are not serious about our defence

    well sorry to say but fact is we moving in circle
     
  11. AmitAgrawal

    AmitAgrawal New Member

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    I think Chinese submarines are only option for Pakistan
    Without money no one else gonna provide them subs but because of Indian thread China providing them all weapons on soft loans
     
  12. captonjohn

    captonjohn Regular Member

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    Definitely this would take years to complete such submarines and china can't give it for free to Pakistan too. Of course china can give these submarines in low cost but this would definitely compromise with some features in subs. We have enough time to counter this but personally I feel that we should go for enhancement of anti-submarine capabilities like P-8 aircraft and fish hawk type of weapons for anti-sub operations along with acquiring new subs.
     
  13. natarajan

    natarajan Senior Member Senior Member

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    sad thing is ,our spending includes huge commission and cancelling of deal at any time,we have n number of procedures and choosing itself will take half decade like mrca
     
  14. chex3009

    chex3009 Regular Member

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    Guys, when is out Arihant class nuclear subs arriving?? Till what time will they be delivered to Indian Navy?? And the scorpene is getting delayed by a long time.

    India should also look to build conventional diesel subs in larger quantities that would be more effective, with Arihants on a deterrence patrol and diesel subs on aggressive patrols, would be a great combination to thwart off Sino-Pak Nexus and our P-8I guarding the seas from the skies by then, deadly combo.
     
  15. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    it is the best idea that India just stand still and wait for the explosion of CHinese bubbles....India need do nothing before China collapse.
     
  16. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    well, Pakistan has lots of mines and resource.....weapons/soft loans for resource is what CHina is good at.
     
  17. chex3009

    chex3009 Regular Member

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    But those mines and resources are mostly in troubled region in Pakistan, the Yanks have their sights fixed on it. It would not be easy for China in that region, look at Gwadar Port, its still not 100% operational, i think China isn't foolish to make huge investments in troubled areas.
     
  18. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    a decent shipbuilding industry contains not long shipyard,but also the base section such as material and machining tools.However, what India's industry is lack of most is those basic sections.

    to build one decent shipyards usualy take several years at most,but to build a full industry chains usually takes 2 decades at least.
     
  19. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    Even In AFH can China cooperate with USA to dig mine there. Thus, why cann't CHina dig mine in Pakistan?

    Chinese have not only fund and tech,but also has courages and ambitions to dig any mine on the earth.

    Europeans set up a good example how empires should be set up for us: first merchants,then followed by arm forces......

    Of course, now CHinese arm force is not so powerful,so it is necessary to hire Yankees as our Lansquenets in AFH....
     
  20. chex3009

    chex3009 Regular Member

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    India have got well established ship yards and supply chain in building quality warships, the only problem we are facing is producing it in numbers like you people do, but we never lose focus on quality while producing it.

    India's got MDL, and now Pipavav ship building yard coming up, where even Russians are ordering to produce their ships. We lack in conventional subs, but we'll overcome that in a period of time.
     
  21. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    BG, you have no clue about indian ship building. India suffers from lack of capacity to build in quantity not lack of tech knowhow or machining or other issues. LnT another private co has made big strides in ship building. Pipavav is a large shipyard with all modern facilities and is one of the biggest in asia I think. They have major plans.
     

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