China syndrome: Why China is different from Middle East

JustForLaughs

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All false, right?

Or is it western propaganda?

By the way they also had to add derogatory animal suffix to their names!

Lastly, it is not that there are no people elsewhere in the world who are not conversant with China, or its history and that only the Chinese know their history!

But what surprises is the somersault that some do, to be more loyal to the King than the King himself by attempting to airbrush history aimed to confuse, obfuscate and hide issue under the carpet!

This is why people are chary about accepting what emanates from Mainland China and its surrogates.
your point? you keep trying to show that Yue are not Han, thats right. it was a loose term for "barbarians" in a particular direction. it was during the Han Dynasty i believe that Han conquered most of southern China. NOTE* there are STILL NO CANTONESE IN EXISTENCE RIGHT NOW.

now after the invasion some han soldier intermarry with the Yue in the area. it doesnt mean ALL Yue. like i keep telling you, viet claim one of their tribes was a Yue tribe. which i dont know and dont care. when intermarry, the children are ancestor of Cantonese.

honestly, what is so hard for you to understand. is it the timelines you keep messing up in your head? showing Zhao dynasty prejudice you think means what? Cantonese are not around yet.

are you still confused why Cantonese are Han? ill repeat for 100th time. Chinese follow the father line. Cantonese ancestor are the result of Han soldier intermarry with conquered Yue. more accurately, also the Han that move to these area after invasion.
 
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JustForLaughs

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Yue = Viet just variation in pronunciation. In ancient China Yue loosely refers to many tribes in the South, from Shanghai along Yangtze down to Viet Nam today.

And Cantonese naturally shares quite similarities with Vietnamese in vocabulary. But the 2 vanarculars sound distinctively different since they parted long long ago.

Perhaps I carry some Yue blood too.
exactly. there is no single identity or kingdom or anything. Ray is trying to imply Cantonese are not Han, because he thinks we are Yue. that is simply wrong. because first, it assumes Yue was actaully an ethnic group. then it assumes we are purely descended from them. he has enourmous trouble understanding Cantonese are a result of the invasion of the Yue. meaning the intermarry of han soldier and yue local and the han who move to southern china later.

any similarity is because both Viet and Canto have heavy middle chinese dialect influence. not because we have any affiliation with viet.
 

Ray

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your point? you keep trying to show that Yue are not Han, thats right. it was a loose term for "barbarians" in a particular direction. it was during the Han Dynasty i believe that Han conquered most of southern China. NOTE* there are STILL NO CANTONESE IN EXISTENCE RIGHT NOW.

now after the invasion some han soldier intermarry with the Yue in the area. it doesnt mean ALL Yue. like i keep telling you, viet claim one of their tribes was a Yue tribe. which i dont know and dont care. when intermarry, the children are ancestor of Cantonese.

honestly, what is so hard for you to understand. is it the timelines you keep messing up in your head? showing Zhao dynasty prejudice you think means what? Cantonese are not around yet.

are you still confused why Cantonese are Han? ill repeat for 100th time. Chinese follow the father line. Cantonese ancestor are the result of Han soldier intermarry with conquered Yue. more accurately, also the Han that move to these area after invasion.
I am sorry I could not fathom what you are trying to state.

A trifle of a rambling it appears.

What is this Cantonese, Yue etc.

Come to the point.

My contentions:

1. There are no genuine Yues? If not, what happened to them i.e. those who did not intermarry or did they all intermarry.

2. If a Yue man marries even a Han half breed of Yue, would he not be a Yue or would he be a Han? Going by the father line, as you so vehemently state.

3. Are Yues Hans or Yues?
 

Ray

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exactly. there is no single identity or kingdom or anything. Ray is trying to imply Cantonese are not Han, because he thinks we are Yue. that is simply wrong. because first, it assumes Yue was actaully an ethnic group. then it assumes we are purely descended from them. he has enourmous trouble understanding Cantonese are a result of the invasion of the Yue. meaning the intermarry of han soldier and yue local and the han who move to southern china later.

any similarity is because both Viet and Canto have heavy middle chinese dialect influence. not because we have any affiliation with viet.

I have now got even more mired in this confusion.

Fine, I would like to know more.

1. So, those who claim to be Cantonese are not Yues. If so, what are they? Their original root and not when the invaders pillaged and raped or convinced them to become Han, if indeed, in the first place the 'originals' were not Hans.

2. Who are the Yues? Where were they settled when the Hans invaded? That is, if one goes by your contention that Yues are Hans (contrived by your suggestions).

3. The Vietnamese cannot claim to have Yue roots, right?
 

JustForLaughs

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I am sorry I could not fathom what you are trying to state.

A trifle of a rambling it appears.

What is this Cantonese, Yue etc.

Come to the point.

My contentions:

1. There are no genuine Yues? If not, what happened to them i.e. those who did not intermarry or did they all intermarry.

2. If a Yue man marries even a Han half breed of Yue, would he not be a Yue or would he be a Han? Going by the father line, as you so vehemently state.

3. Are Yues Hans or Yues?
1. not in southern China. like i keep saying, if you believe viet claims then they are still relatively pure Yue. though that is also unlikely but w/e. their claim. what do you think happens in an invasion? the Yue in southern China (not ALL Yue. 100th time, ambiguous term) either died, intermarry, or ran away.

2. that imaginary kid you invented would be Yue. and yes, fatherline is how Chinese trace ancestors. which means all those migrations of Han into Southern China, particularly when the north was lost to the nomads, would severely dilute any Yue blood that remained there. Han influx of southern China replacing Yue since they lost in the invasion. only you are delusional enough to think there is any actual Yue ethnic (which doesnt even exist) around or even funnier that Cantonese take on that identity.

3. Yue are Yue. Cantonese are Han.
 

JustForLaughs

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I have now got even more mired in this confusion.

Fine, I would like to know more.

1. So, those who claim to be Cantonese are not Yues. If so, what are they? Their original root and not when the invaders pillaged and raped or convinced them to become Han, if indeed, in the first place the 'originals' were not Hans.

2. Who are the Yues? Where were they settled when the Hans invaded? That is, if one goes by your contention that Yues are Hans (contrived by your suggestions).

3. The Vietnamese cannot claim to have Yue roots, right?
1. NO. we are Han. southern chinese. tang people. many terms, mean the same thing. NONE means Yue as referred to during the Han Dynsaty. our "original" root is han influx, mostly intermarriage of the han soldiers with locals.

you still dont understand such a simple concept.

2. they were a bunch of people labeled as barbarians. they were no single ethnic or identity.

repeat this with me Ray. Cantonese are Han. Yue are not Han. Cantonese are mixed from the START during Han invasion and subsequent influx of Han replacing the Yue or intermarrying with them. Canto "origins" is NOT YUE. it is the INVASION. get it through your head?

3. they can claim w/e they want. northern vietnam was included as where the Yue barbarians were. i believe they claim their tribe Lac Viet or w/e was a Yue tribe.
 

Ray

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1. not in southern China. like i keep saying, if you believe viet claims then they are still relatively pure Yue. though that is also unlikely but w/e. their claim. what do you think happens in an invasion? the Yue in southern China (not ALL Yue. 100th time, ambiguous term) either died, intermarry, or ran away.
If not southern China, then where? Surely, not in England! Spell out and not obfuscate. Why are you so shy and cagey? If it is a disgrace to be a Yue barbarian, then say so and be done with it and prove that all the scholarly tomes on the Yue jn China are mere figment of imagination and totally bogus.

I find your contention
their claim. what do you think happens in an invasion? the Yue in southern China (not ALL Yue. 100th time, ambiguous term) either died, intermarry, or ran away.

is so juvenile that it is Laughable, even if it is just for laughs!

If that were true that all ran away, intermarried or died, then the demography of the world would be a real interesting one. It should have applied to the Cornish people in England, the Welsh and the Scots or to most of the Indian communities. How the Di^ckens, they survived? The Yues were that fragile a group? The Chinese Army moved into Tibet and so all the Tibetans died, intermarried or ran away? Then, who are the Tibetan still in Tibet? Hans?

2. that imaginary kid you invented would be Yue. and yes, fatherline is how Chinese trace ancestors. which means all those migrations of Han into Southern China, particularly when the north was lost to the nomads, would severely dilute any Yue blood that remained there. Han influx of southern China replacing Yue since they lost in the invasion. only you are delusional enough to think there is any actual Yue ethnic (which doesnt even exist) around or even funnier that Cantonese take on that identity.
Imaginary? Fine. So all the Yues got wiped out by the Hans? Some sort of genocide took place?

Not my idea of Hong Kong and Guangzhou people. I quoted links of scholarly tomes - by people recognised as experts! I presume they are more of an expert than you or your idea to live down your barbarian past (as per the Hans).

I am not delusional. The Opium War was in China, that is, if you understand what I mean.

Originally posted by seneca at 2010-8-7 12:25
It is true the Cantonese stand somewhat out among Han-Chinese, but I don't know how. It's easy to identify them, though.

The Cantonese are desendants of the Southern Yue tribes whom the Han Chinese from the northern China conquered.
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=675326
The China Daily (Chinese: 中国日报; pinyin: Zhōngguó Rìbào) is an English-language daily newspaper published in the People's Republic of China.

3. Yue are Yue. Cantonese are Han.
Not if what is stated in China Daily.

The Cantonese are desendants of the Southern Yue tribes whom the Han Chinese from the northern China conquered. is what it says.

Lets look at another Chinese source.

This is what is stated in China History Forum:

I'll discuss briefly about the history of the Yue (越) people, from which the cantonese originated. The Yue people are the ancestors of the cantonese, to be more precise "Southern Yue" tribes were the direct ancestors. The cantonese are in fact very closely related to today's north vietnamese, in terms of looks, body structure and language. And compared to northern Chinese, the cantonese are generally shorter and look differently (they appeared to look more like northen Vietnamese)

History of Yue People

Basically, during the spring/autumn and warring states period times, the people that dwelled in the southern region of what's called "Zhejiang", "Fujian", "Guangdong" provinces today and northern part of "Vietnam" are called "Yue" people. The Yue people are quite diverse and have many clans and tribal federation. The Yue people are considered by the civilized chinese of the central plain (中原) as uncivilized and therefore barbaric. Because of so many clans and tribes, the Yue people are also called the "Hundred Yue" (百越).

During the Spring/Autumn period, among the Yue people, the tribes that are more advanced and civilized will have to include the "Yue" (越) clan and " Gou Wu" (句吴) clan. During those times, they dwelled in the region of the lake Tai. The Yue clan founded the Yue state (in today's Zhejiang province region) while the Gou Wu established the Wu state (in today's Jiangsu province region). Later, the Wu state defeated the Yue state and the king of Yue, "Gou Jian" (勾践) had to rear horses for the king of Wu, "Fu Chai" (夫差). However, the king of Yue later gained trust from the king of Wu and he was allowed to return to Yue kingdom. Legend had it that after he returned to Yue kingdom, he worked very hard to make his kingdom strong. Finally after 10 years of hardwork, he finally defeated the Wu state. However, by the late Warring states period, the Kingdom of Yue was conquered by the Chu kingdom (one of the 7 strong states during the warring states period).

Although the Yue kingdom was conquered by the chu kingdom, the Yue people survived. The Yue people of former yue state and Wu state intermixed with the Hua Xia people (ancestors of Han-chinese) . After the warring states period, the "hundred Yue' term began to become popular. During the Western Han period, the people of the south were officially called "Hundred Yue". The "Yue" (越) could also referred to another Yue "粤" (which means "cantonese").

During the early Han dynasty period, the "Hundred Yue" were divided into "Eastern Ou" (东瓯), "Min Yue" (闽越), "Southern Yue" (南越), "Western Ou" (西瓯), "Luo Yue" (骆越) etc, main groups.

1. "Eastern Ou" (东瓯) - also known as "Ou Yue" (瓯越). They dwelled in the region of previous Yue and Wu state. (today's Zhejiang Wenzhou region)

2. "Min Yue" (闽越) - also within the region of previous Yue state (today's Fujiang province) - these were the ancestors of the "Min" chinese people today (who speaks Hokkien dialect)

3. "Southern Yue" (南越) - within the region of today's Guangdong province, later developed into the region of Guangxi province and its south part. They were the ancestors of cantonese today.

4. "Western Ou" (西瓯) - within the region of today's western part of Guangdong province and southern part of Guangxi province

5. "Luo Yue" (骆越) - today's north Vietnam region. The ancient Luo Yue people were the direct ancestors of today's Vietnamese. Today's vietnam in chinese is called "Yue Nan" (越南), which means south of Yue.

The above Yue people were all conquered by Emperor Han Wudi during his military expansion campaign of the south (I'll narrate this campaign in my next posts) and after that, these regions in the south became part of the Han provinces. After this conquest, the term "Hundred Yue" disappeared from the history records of the chinese. Some of the Yue people were sinificised and mixed with the Han-chinese. Some of the Yue people became the ancestors of today's "Gao Shan" ethnic
(高山族) in Taiwan. Another Yue faction became today's "Dai" ethnic (傣族) in southern China. Others became today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族), "Bu Yi" ethnic (布依族), "Tong" ethnic (侗族), "Shui" ethnic (水族) in Southern China.



Basically, today's "Zhuang" ethnic (壮族) and "Tong" ethnic (侗族) in South China were related to the polynesian people in south-east asia.

It is thus important to note that Yue was a generic term to referred to barbarian people of the south during warring states. The Southern Yue tribes/people were the ancestors of today's cantonese.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/211-who-were-the-cantonese-guandong-rentang-ren/
So, the scholars are wrong, the common Chinese on various forums are wrong and Just for Laugh is the only wise man who is right!
 
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JustForLaughs

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If not southern China, then where? Surely, not in England! Spell out and not obfuscate. Why are you so shy and cagey? If it is a disgrace to be a Yue barbarian, then say so and be done with it and prove that all the scholarly tomes on the Yue jn China are mere figment of imagination and totally bogus.

I find your contention their claim. what do you think happens in an invasion? the Yue in southern China (not ALL Yue. 100th time, ambiguous term) either died, intermarry, or ran away. is so juvenile that it is Laughable, even if it is just for laughs!

If that were true that all ran away, intermarried or died, then the demography of the world would be a real interesting one. It should have applied to the Cornish people in England, the Welsh and the Scots or to most of the Indian communities. How the Di^ckens, they survived? The Yues were that fragile a group? The Chinese Army moved into Tibet and so all the Tibetans died, intermarried or ran away? Then, who are the Tibetan still in Tibet? Hans?



Imaginary? Fine. So all the Yues got wiped out by the Hans? Some sort of genocide took place?

Not my idea of Hong Kong and Guangzhou people. I quoted links of scholarly tomes - by people recognised as experts! I presume they are more of an expert than you or your idea to live down your barbarian past (as per the Hans).

I am not delusional. The Opium War was in China, that is, if you understand what I mean.



The China Daily (Chinese: 中国日报; pinyin: Zhōngguó Rìbào) is an English-language daily newspaper published in the People's Republic of China.



Not if what is stated in China Daily.

The Cantonese are desendants of the Southern Yue tribes whom the Han Chinese from the northern China conquered. is what it says.

Lets look at another Chinese source.

This is what is stated in China History Forum:



So, the scholars are wrong, the common Chinese on various forums are wrong and Just for Laugh is the only wise man who is right!
that is EXACTLY what will happen to Tibet if Han influx into it for thousands of years.

ok, use some simple thinking ok? do you know how long ago the Yue lost to Han? first, Qin general conquer these people and form NanYue. if you want to claim this identity, ok, their Yue identity is from being conquered.

then Han Dynasty conquer Nan Yue. from this point on, even more Han influx begins and continues until present day into southern China. why you think it is unusual that there are no pure Yue left is beyond me. its VERY likely actually. especially since these are just tribes, not large countries.

finally, learn the difference between a maternal and fraternal ancestors PLEASE. i never once claim Cantonese had no Yue ancestry. i said it was MIXED from the invasion.

even in Zhao Tuo's time:

"The Kingdom continued most of the Qin Commanderies' policies and practices dealing with the interactions between the local Yue and the Han immigrants, and Zhao Tuo proactively promoted a policy of assimilating the two cultures into each other. . Marriages between the Han Chinese and Yue became increasingly common throughout Nanyue's existence, and even occurred in the Zhao royal family. Many marriages between the Zhao royal family (who were Han Chinese) and the Lü family (Yue - they likely adopted Chinese names early in Nanyue's history) were recorded. Zhao Jiande, Nanyue's last king, was the son of previous king Zhao Yingqi and his Yue wife. Despite the dominating influence of the Chinese newcomers on the Hundred Yue, the amount of assimilation gradually increased over time.[20] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyue


here is the main point. Cantonese are NOT Yue. the "Yue" during Zhao Tuo's time already starting to stop becoming Yue through assimilation.
 
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JustForLaughs

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get your time lines right. understand the difference between maternal and fraternal ancestry.

one of these days you will get the story straight. though i wonder if everyone has this much trouble.
 

JustForLaughs

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The China Daily (Chinese: 中国日报; pinyin: Zhōngguó Rìbào) is an English-language daily newspaper published in the People's Republic of China.



Not if what is stated in China Daily.

The Cantonese are desendants of the Southern Yue tribes whom the Han Chinese from the northern China conquered. is what it says.

LOL newspaper. you quoted their forum. how low and amusing.
 

Ray

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Thank you. Tongzhi.

You have proved how people are not proud of their past and instead believe in wearing peacock's feathers to bury their true identity!

In my country, there is a saying 'Kauwa chale Hans ke chal', which translated means a crow trying to walk as stately as a Swan!

One does not like to be tagged with a barbarian ancestry. Understandable.
 
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JustForLaughs

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im proud of dispelling a liar who is trying to tell Cantonese what our past is despite knowing next to nothing about the history. again, even as early as Zhao Tuo's era the Yue were being mixed and losing Yue identity. (that is not even proper usage since their group identity would be based on being conquered, tribal ways i suppose is more accurate) now add on Han Dynasty invasion. then add on for the rest of history Han migration, particularly during times the nomads conquered the north and dynasties relocated to the south.

now with all that knowledge, you seem intent on forcing Yue identity on Cantonese. all because you read an even older time period call them barbarians.
 

Ray

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the amount of assimilation gradually increased over time.
Assimilation means that a People engulfed and it need not be by marriage.

The Yues were wiped out culturally since it was drummed into them that they are inferior and barbarians. Who would want to be a barbarian? That policy continues even now, where speaking the local dialect is taken to be crude and of the street and low class and hence Mandarin is the only language of the classier people.

Now, who would want to be called a guttersnipe?
 

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im proud of dispelling a liar who is trying to tell Cantonese what our past is despite knowing next to nothing about the history. again, even as early as Zhao Tuo's era the Yue were being mixed and losing Yue identity. (that is not even proper usage since their group identity would be based on being conquered, tribal ways i suppose is more accurate) now add on Han Dynasty invasion. then add on for the rest of history Han migration, particularly during times the nomads conquered the north and dynasties relocated to the south.

now with all that knowledge, you seem intent on forcing Yue identity on Cantonese. all because you read an even older time period call them barbarians.
Good for you.

All the educated scholars I have quoted are liars and our barbarian descendant is the only one who knows.

I think they are the cooked barbarians, really well cooked it appears! :)

I marvel at the way how some people are ashamed of their past history and want to embrace something they are not pure in genes so that they can wash away their barbarian tag and past!! I think it is a total shame to not recognise who they are and acquire a false genetic history as the only gene in the blood!!

Such people who demean and discard their past deserve the utmost pity!

And the temerity to call people liars!!
 
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JustForLaughs

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Assimilation means that a People engulfed and it need not be by marriage.

The Yues were wiped out culturally since it was drummed into them that they are inferior and barbarians. Who would want to be a barbarian? That policy continues even now, where speaking the local dialect is taken to be crude and of the street and low class and hence Mandarin is the only language of the classier people.

Now, who would want to be called a guttersnipe?
doesnt have to be. but even the earlier time marriage was specifically mentioned. ok, if you can prove no more intermarriage happen between Han and Yue since NanYue fell allllllll the way to now. then ill accept being Yue ethnic. even though there is no such thing :pound:
 

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"The first Cantonese King, Zhao Tuo, was a Qin military commander and accordingly he was from Hebei; he spoke ancient Mandarin in my opinion. His 2nd generation subjects Nanyue Kingdom perhaps spoke proto Cantonese (a mixed of ancient Yayen and Pre Zhuang dialet ) as his 300,000 strong Qin soldiers intermixed with the local Yue women( maternal ancestors of Zhuang )."

"Cantonese is a mixed of ancient " Yayen" ( ancient Mandarin used during Zhou dynasty ~1024BC till Qin dynasty) and old Zhuang's dialet. It started when the 300,000 strong Qin soldiers stationed at Nanhai (old Canton), Guilin, and Xiangzhen( Nanning) intermixed with the local Yue women ( the Yue male/warriors were mostly killed in battles, some fled to mountains in northwest and south west of Guangxi where their descendants Zhuang live). continue."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&source=www.google.ca
 

Ray

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I have no time to prove what you are.

For all I care, you can go ahead and claim you are Chengiz Khan!

My interest was if Hans in China were 97% and there were 56 minorities, what happened to the various races that were there before the Hans moved southwards?

However, if the Hans wiped out the races of the South by culturally disgracing them in subjugation through humiliation, extermination or intermarriage, then that is a genocide in huge proportion.

If people are proud to claim that they are descendants of conquerors, soldiers who raped and pillaged, I daresay I could contest their claims and why should I?
 

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my pride have nothing to do with it. Han was a powerful empire. these things happen. it is fact that Cantonese are basically born from the invasion of Han into what is now southern China. im not going to let you decide our identity for us.
 

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"The first Cantonese King, Zhao Tuo, was a Qin military commander and accordingly he was from Hebei; he spoke ancient Mandarin in my opinion. His 2nd generation subjects Nanyue Kingdom perhaps spoke proto Cantonese (a mixed of ancient Yayen and Pre Zhuang dialet ) as his 300,000 strong Qin soldiers intermixed with the local Yue women( maternal ancestors of Zhuang )."

"Cantonese is a mixed of ancient " Yayen" ( ancient Mandarin used during Zhou dynasty ~1024BC till Qin dynasty) and old Zhuang's dialet. It started when the 300,000 strong Qin soldiers stationed at Nanhai (old Canton), Guilin, and Xiangzhen( Nanning) intermixed with the local Yue women ( the Yue male/warriors were mostly killed in battles, some fled to mountains in northwest and south west of Guangxi where their descendants Zhuang live). continue."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&source=www.google.ca
It only shows

and not what you have posted and even what you have posted shows that Yues bolted into the blues and women left behind forced to marry Hans. Brave chaps what?
 
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