China may resort to Indian territory grab

Discussion in 'Subcontinent & Central Asia' started by Oracle, Feb 29, 2012.

  1. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    New Delhi, Feb 29 (IANS): China may resort to territorial grabs, including through a "major military offensive", especially in Arunachal Pradesh or Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir, and India should respond with "a strategy of quid pro quo", says a report by an independent group of Indian analysts.

    "Our frontiers with China have been mostly stable for some years now. However, China could assert its territorial claims (especially in the Arunachal sector or Ladakh) by the use of force," says the report that seeks to outline a foreign and strategic policy for India in the 21st century.

    "There is the possibility that China might resort to territorial grabs. The most likely areas for such bite-sized operations are those parts of the Line of Actual Control where both sides have different notions of where the LAC actually runs. These places are known," says the report. The report contends that India can't "entirely dismiss the possibility of a major military offensive in Arunachal Pradesh or Ladakh".

    The report entitled "Non-Alignment 2.0: A Foreign and Strategic Policy for the 21st century", was unveiled on Tuesday evening at a panel discussion at Hotel Ashok in which National Security Adviser Shiv Shankar Menon and his immediate predecessors M.K. Narayanan, currently West Bengal governor, and Brajesh Mishra participated.

    "China will, for the foreseeable future, remain a significant foreign policy and security challenge for India. It is the one major power which impinges directly on India's geopolitical space. As its economic and military capabilities expand, its power differential with India is likely to widen," says the publication in a chapter entitled "The Asian Theatre".

    The debate on India's options in dealing with an emerging China, among other things, has coincided with the two-day visit of Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi to India that began Wednesday.

    The report goes on to say that in case of a military offensive or territorial grab, India will need "a mix of defensive and offensive capabilities" to restore the status quo ante.

    "Indeed, given the fact that the combat ratio and logistical networks favour China and that the attacker will always have the advantage of tactical (if not strategic) surprise, we will need a mix of defensive and offensive capabilities to leverage the advantages the terrain offers."

    The better way of responding to limited land grabs by China, the report suggests, is for India to take similar action across the LAC: a strategy of quid pro quo. These areas should be identified and earmarked for limited offensive operations on our part, the report recommends.

    In the event of a major offensive by China, the report suggests India should not resort to a strategy of proportionate response. "Rather we should look to leverage our asymmetric capabilities to convince the Chinese to back down."

    The report recommends that India must prepare itself to trigger an insurgency in the areas occupied by Chinese forces and to develop the capability to interdict the logistics and military infrastructure in Tibet.

    The report outlines other strategies to counter the Chinese offensive which includes accelerating the integration of the frontier regions and its people by speeding up and improving communication infrastructure with the mainland and to expand naval capabilities in the Indian Ocean region.

    "Due to the multiplicity of the agencies involved, there is need to establish a Maritime Commission. The crucial decision we face here concerns the quantum of additional resources that we must devote to developing our maritime power."

    The report has been co-authored by a group of analysts comprising Shyam Saran, former foreign secretary and special envoy to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh; Nandan Nilekani, chairman of Unique Identity Development Authority of India; Lt General (retired) Prakash Menon, military advisor to the National Security Council Secretariat; Sunil Khilnani, professor of history at King's College, London's India Institute; Pratap Bhanu Mehta, president, Centre for Policy Research (CPR); Rajiv Kumar, FICCI secretary general; Srinath Raghavan, senior fellow at CPR; and Siddharth Vardarajan (Editor, The Hindu).

    AT
     
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  3. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Be my guest. A bloody nose awaits you Chini
     
  4. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    If Chinese resort to military means, it would be done with full preparation not to loose face. It would not be a small scale border conflict which can be evened out by India by taking counter meausre. They would aim to achieve irreversible gains which would be another national embarrassment for India and result in loss of face. Hence the scale of military operation would be quite sufficient, sure and secure. Surprise and deception would invariably be used to give shocks and imbalance the Indian military. Indian strategy of trading space for time and reaction would be a big blunder as there are many areas on LAC where there is no quid pro quo.

    The arm cahair strategies of Ashoka Hotel needs to travel to Demchok and such areas on ground without Finance Ministry playing smart.
     
  5. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Bhadra, and that is not possible for the Chinese to make irreversal gains. That is a given. We will hit back an take part of their territory.

    The Chinis would have attacked us long back if they knew they could take some land from us. The thing is for the Chinis, any status quo will BR a huge loss of face for a pretender to be a super power, while for India it will be sufficient and it will enhance its prestige.
     
  6. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    In mountains such as existing there it takes 10 times of the forces to take back what one has lost. Losses in such terrain can be permanent. That is why defense there is more important. Only asymmetric war inside Tibet will be war winner. India needs capabilities on one airborne division and one helicopter division to get behind the Chinese along with Tibetans and hack the Chinese.
     
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  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    But taking the heights where we are perched is going to be very difficult. Chun chun ke marenge Chini ko
     
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  8. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Both sides have heights. The answer lies in going behind those heights !
     
  9. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Shooting contest till ammo runs out.
     
  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Give me a break. PRC will take couple of years to transit political power. No chance they'll open a military conflict in that time. GOI is already at war by engaging in diplomacy, all it takes us is to involve more parties in this table talk. Diplomacy is more powerful than gun when you have right leverages in your kitty.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
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  11. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Tactics and techniques have gone far ahead of WWI trench warfare. Paradrop, helli drop and go behind the Chini and test their Chini sweetners, capture their bases logistics, guns, ammunition, roads and bridges and then link up. Let the chinese keep sitting where they are.
     
  12. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    if you want to know about Chinese then pls ask huwaei employees
     
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  13. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    I am so fond of your posts. I just clicked like above. :D
     
  14. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    I just wonder what china can get from this so called "territory grab"?

    We already got what we want and what we can hold in 1962, nothing more.

    There is one thing for sure that so territory in question is not worth the expense of military action, not to mention the burden of feeding the poor population on that land.
     
  15. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    BS, Chinese started the war for the capture of Tawang, the objective was not achieved. They tried again in 1966-67 got kicked around. 1986-87 again got kicked around. 1999 ran with tail between there legs. Bottomline: Chinese have lost the initiative, even when the initiated they were not able to achieve the objectives
     
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  16. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    BS, we started war for the control of Aksai Chin and Tibet, which was threatened by india's "friendly" forward policy.
     
  17. addiction

    addiction Regular Member

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    lol...if that happens in my life time, I will stop posting/visiting any forum forever and ever! we all know it very well, china will learn a lesson from India if they dare to do it again! they seem to be interested in testing various favors since Japanese didn’t go well with them..may be they want to try Indian now....knock out chindi land!
     
  18. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    And left the Tawang for future crying :rofl:, which is going on till now. Fact is that India never was in Tibet, you still want Tawang to have a control over all the monasteries, which you don't have till now, and will never have, your objectives were not achieved, period. You tried again and failed miserably. We will have a war, but that will be for freedom of Tibet.
     
  19. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Easier said than done. You want to rely on ammo captured and wait till there is an LOC opened?
     
  20. shashi

    shashi Regular Member

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    The Chinese army is not unpredictable like the Pakistani army : Indian war veteran
    Published March 2, 2012 | By admin

    SOURCE: Colonel John Taylor (retd)

    ” 1962 will not be allowed to happen again. ”

    Take the word of an old war veteran for it, says Colonel John Taylor (retd), even as there is talk that China may strike at India this year and try to grab some territory.

    The visit to India by China’s special representative on the boundary negotiations, State Councilor Dai Bingguo, in January raised a lot of hope and expectations on both sides; as he has made a strong call for both countries to put aside their differences and seize ‘a golden period to grow China-India relations.’

    If the two Asian giants are able to solve their differences, it will indeed change the economical, political and military scenario in the entire South East.

    However the sincerity of the present Chinese regime remains questionable .The ‘Principles of Panchsheel’ that had been burning bright in the 1950s, got doused in the 1960s and from time to time are rekindled occasionally.

    Though China is once again concentrating on rebuilding her armed forces (befitting of a superpower), yet she realises that India is a regional economic power to reckon with and that its armed forces are no ‘pushovers’.

    During my 30 years of service, I have come face to face with the Chinese army on four different occasions.

    Firstly, in Ladakh (1970-1971), in the Partapur Sector, which houses the Siachen Glacier and the Karakoram Pass. Secondly in NEFA, Arunachal Pradesh (1973-1974). The third time, as a battalion commander in Sikkim (1980-1981), holding positions astride the Younghusband route, and for the fourth time as deputy commander of a brigade in Katau, North Sikkim (1988-1991).

    In recent times, a number of reports have appeared in the media about ‘Chinese intrusions’ into Indian territory. Many may not believe this, but these so-called intrusions have been going on since a very long time! By personal experience, I first saw it in 1970!

    I was posted in Chungtash (meaning ‘Big Stone’ in Yarkandi) which lies below the Karakoram Pass and connects Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) with Leh. It is an ancient route used by traders from Yarkand and Tashkand, who traded gold for Indian silk and spices.

    Daulat Beg was a very wealthy merchant whose grave still exists and lies in DBO (means the place where Daulat Beg was buried). As one treks from Panamik (famous for its hot Sulphur springs) towards Chungtash, one has to traverse through a valley flanked on either sides by large mountains.

    The River Shyok meanders along on its journey to join the river Indus and on into Pakistan. While walking to Chungtash, we had to cross the river Shyok 63 times (during our march of 23 full days)!! The waters are ice cold and if adequate precautions are not taken, frost bite is an immediate reality.

    After climbing and gaining altitude, suddenly we arrived onto a vast flat plain — a complete contrast to the steep mountains we had been negotiating the past so many days! The flat terrain extended to as far as our eyes could see.

    There were no landmarks whatsoever. Its vastness was however interspersed at regular intervals with remains of camels, yaks and other beasts used by traders’ caravans.

    There was no need to do any map reading now. We just followed the piles of animal skeletons and we knew that we were on the correct route.

    In this same area we also saw a lone, abandoned IAF helicopter which was a grim reminder of the 1962 war. Today India has built an ‘advanced landing ground’ in this location.

    It was here that I saw the famous Kasturi Mrig(musk deer) for the very first time. Unlike the border with Pakistan, there are no boundary pillars to mark the International Border between India and Tibet (now China).

    As our patrol approached it, the musk deer trotted away to the Chinese side (just outside of our rifle range), turned around and looked at us as if to say, ‘Catch me if you can!’

    It would immediately change loyalties when a Chinese patrol would appear and run towards our Indian side and play safe! It was also here that I first saw a Chinese soldier.

    As a young officer with just about six years of service, I was provided with a detailed map on which the boundary had been marked along with Chinese troop deployments (there were just a few). The map did not have just one boundary. It had many:

    a. The McMohan Line (prepared by and named after the first British Surveyor General of India).

    b. The Tibetan Boundary (as per documents left by the British army).

    c.The 1962 Indo-Chinese Dispute Line.

    d.The Indian Claim Line.

    e.The Chinese Claim Line

    In all fairness to the Chinese army, they came till only the areas they claimed as theirs. The Chinese army is not unpredictable like the Pakistani army. There are no ‘ceasefire violations’. That doesn’t help matters because the Indian Army has to protect its borders in the interest of the country.

    In Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan has already gifted vast areas to China. This has enabled China to build roads, airfields and allied infrastructure. China can maintain its troops by road.

    Even God has been kind to them. Their part of the terrain is less hostile and more conducive to construction of infrastructure.

    The terrain on our side of Tibet is more treacherous, difficult to negotiate and the weather is very hostile. This obviously gives rise to many disadvantages.

    In many areas of Ladakh, our troops are still maintained by air and it is not possible to build the required infrastructures. Bad weather can disrupt the best of plans. Sometimes one feels that the weather is the bigger villain than the enemy!

    In NEFA (Arunachal Pradesh) the Chinese claim that their territory is till Tawang. In 1962 they marched till Bomdilla and went back. We have very well fortified defences here and a well rehearsed withdrawal plan which ensures the enemy will be given a bloody nose.

    The Chinese only keep making noises and patrol the area (sometimes into remote parts of Indian territory), but return on seeing the Indian Army’s presence. A lot of flag meetings at the highest levels take place here.

    In Sikkim there are many positions where we are in close proximity to the Chinese troops. Nathu La is one such place. Tourists come here to witness the weekly exchange of ‘Dak’. Traders also go across and a fair amount of trading is done via this route.

    Chinese soldiers love Indian cigarettes. Whenever the ‘political commissar’ was not present or not looking, the Chinese soldiers would ask for cigarettes. In the 1970s and 1980s the Panama brand of cigarettes was an all time favourite.

    They also enjoyed listening to Indian film songs (which were played over the loud speaker) and there were repeated requests for the famous Bappi Lahiri hit, Jimmy Jimmy, Aaja Aaja, Aaja!

    Positions are well demarcated in Sikkim, and there is no chance of any major or minor intrusion. Tibetans seeking asylum are not uncommon. At one stage, China used to claim the whole of Sikkim as theirs.

    After many rounds of talks and concessions made on both sides, matters were settled and they no longer make such claims.

    Talking about intrusions, I will recount a rather embarrassing Indian intrusion in Sikkim, sometime in the early 1980s which made headlines in the media. Both India and China would patrol the border on their respective sides. This was nick named as ‘Billi (cat) Patrol.’

    Each patrol would walk along the well demarcated border, fully armed and in full strength (20 to 30 soldiers).

    The weather in this part of Sikkim has a strange, almost weird pattern. The skies are clear at night. Later a misty fog comes creeping up from the base of the mountains, shrouding visibility to such an extent that by morning you cannot see beyond 5 to 10 yards.

    On very few occasions do we have clear weather during the daytime. As soon as noon approaches, from 12:00 pm till 04:00 pm as per a daily schedule, it begins to thunder and flashes of lightning light up the skies in jagged patterns. The noise is frightening.

    Nobody moves out at this time. Lightning has claimed many a life, both human and animals. Sometimes the mist and fog persists for days!

    On one such occasion an Indian Army patrol was out on a routine patrol and found the going tough because of the fog. When the fog lifted after a few days, they realised they were lost, and asked for help over the radio.

    They followed the instructions, “Continue for 3 kms till you reach a lake. Follow the track down for another 2 kms till you come to a school building. Spend the night there and vehicles will pick you up by 08:00 am.”

    The very relieved patrol followed the instructions. They came to the lake, found the school. It was late at night, totally exhausted, they fell asleep.

    Early in the morning, they were rudely awakened. They were surrounded by Chinese soldiers! While negotiating the fog they had taken some wrong turn and had landed in Chinese territory!

    The terrain is very similar on both sides. The yak herdsmen are also similar. After hectic diplomatic negotiations our soldiers were returned.

    Intrusions can sometimes be by accident, and sometimes deliberate!

    It is heartening to hear that on January 17, 2012, India and China have agreed to set up a working mechanism to deal with important border issues to ensure peace along their borders.

    Today the electronic and print media are proactive and are always ‘Breaking News’. There are a lot of implications and complications when they report and talk about border intrusion.

    Whipping up emotions doesn’t help. Escalating the situation helps neither side.

    The Indian Army swears by the doctrine, ‘Not an inch of Indian soil will be given to the enemy’. The Indian Army knows its job and how to do it.

    All it needs is an order — and nobody, just nobody will get away with even the slightest intrusion.

    The latest acquisition of sophisticated aircraft and other military hardware will also go a long way in keeping any enemy at bay, both physically and psychologically.

    Always remember, that the Indian Army has a glorious tradition of bravery and valour, even when the chips are stacked against it. It will not allow any neighbour to change that. We are well prepared and ready.

    1962 will not be allowed to happen again. Take the word of an old war veteran for it.

    Colonel John Taylor (retd) fought in the 1965 India-Pakistan War and the 1971 India-Pakistan War. He was part of the Indian Peace Keeping Force in Sri Lanka in the late 1980s. He served the Indian Army for 30 years.
     
  21. ice berg

    ice berg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Nice article, shows that "intrusions" has many sides.
     

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