China May 'Crash' in Next 9 to 12 Months, Faber Says

badguy2000

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China doesn't have bad inflation because CPI doesn't measure property. Chinese consumers aren't demanding much of anything to raise it, money is going into property. Chinese consumer spending is 35% of GDP and getting lower every year, if Chinese don't buy more, there is little inflation to the CPI. If you added property, it would be 20-30%.
1. CHinese statistics is not perfect.. but so are other countries, including your beloved EU ,India and USA..Otherwise,sub-prime crisis would not happen.
the key is whether CHina is on the right way to get a better statistic.
I think CHina is doing so, but you don't.
that is the difference.=xD

2. Chinese statistic is "chinese style" and qute different from west ones . If you want to analyze Chinese economy by comparing CHinese GDP structure with west's GDP structure, you will go nowhere,because you are comparing one oragne with one apple.

For example. Chinese GDP doesn't include rent at all. however, rent is the biggest item of USA's GDP,which is over 1.3 trillion USD last year. As we know, India's GDP is less than 1.3 trillion USD 0_0
 
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Armand2REP

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1. CHinese statistics is not perfect.. but so are other countries, including your beloved EU ,India and USA..Otherwise,sub-prime crisis would not happen.
the key is whether CHina is on the right way to get a better statistic.
I think CHina is doing so, but you don't.
that is the difference.=xD

2. Chinese statistic is "chinese style" and qute different from west ones . If you want to analyze Chinese economy by comparing CHinese GDP structure with west's GDP structure, you will go nowhere,because you are comparing one oragne with one apple.

For example. Chinese GDP doesn't include rent at all. however, rent is the biggest item of USA's GDP,which is over 1.3 trillion USD last year. As we know, India's GDP is less than 1.3 trillion USD 0_0
You want to lecture Europeans on their statistics? This coming from a Chinese?!? Man you have some nerves. China is the exact case of what NOT to do with statistics. Chinese banques have to have a 3 month long audit because they don't even know how much they lent.
 
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badguy2000

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You want to lecture Europeans on their statistics? This coming from a Chinois?!? Man you have some nerves. China is the exact case of what NOT to do with statistics. Chinese banques have to have a 3 month long audit because they don't even know how much they lent.
yes, USA's and Europeans' banks have such a perfect statistics that they know exactly how much taxpayer's money should be picked out to bail them out of the crisis.

Furthermore, those CHinese banks are so poorly-managed that Chinese banks now occupy five postions on the list of global top 10 banks.

Guy, it is most funny case that one beggar mocks how poor one millionare is!

BTW, Chinese banks have the full qualification to lecture European and yankee's banks who can not survive without the bailout from their governments,because Chinese banks are the winners and the winners have the qualification to lecture the losers such as European banks.
 
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Daredevil

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A very interesting and easy to read article about the trouble brewing in Chinese economy explained with nice examples. Must read and highly recommended..

Will China be the next Black Swan?

Vivek Kaul / DNA
Thursday, May 6, 2010 3:34


Evening. Sea face. Me and her, the setting sun, couples getting cozy all around us and a dangling conversation not of the superficial kind.

"You know, someone in office today was saying that China will be the next Black Swan. What is a Black Swan?" she asked.

"Well. A swan that is black in colour is a black swan," I replied cheekily.

"Ho ho! That I know. But what is the inference being made in this case?"

"See, the term black swan has recently been made famous by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. But this was a fairly common expression even in 16th century London as a phrase describing the impossibility of an event occurring. The reason being that in those days in the western world, there were only white swans and hence, black swan was used to signify impossibility. Black swans were first discovered in Australia in 1697 by Willem de Vlamingh. Taleb essentially uses the expression to talk about events which are hard to predict and at the same time have a huge impact on the economy of a country if they occur. In the recent past, black swan has been used more often than not to signify a negative economic event."

"Interesting. But why will China be the next black swan? What is the story there?"

"I happened to read a very interesting white paper titled China's Red Flags written by Edward Chancellor. Chancellor points out that the continued high growth rate of China is more a function of government-directed lending through banks than the state of the economy itself. As Chancellor writes "Last year, new bank lending increased by nearly 10 trillion renminbi (the Chinese currency), equivalent to 29% of gross domestic product. These loans largely went to fund infrastructure projects, property developments"¦ It was as if the economy had received an enormous adrenaline shot." And all this money has helped China continue to grow at an astonishingly high rate despite the world being in the midst of what is now being called the Great Recession. Estimates suggest this government-directed investment was responsible for nearly 70% of China's growth in 2008 and almost 90% growth in the first half of 2009."

"But what is wrong with this strategy?"

"Well. See it like this: Botox may make an old woman look good for a while, but beyond a point, it has its side effects. So to continue to grow, China has to continue to invest more and more."

"So?"

"Well. That is a very risky strategy to follow. Let me explain what the economists call the multiplier effect to make my point. You earn a salary of around Rs 65,000 every month. What do you do with that money?"

"First I pay my portion of the rent. And then I go in for my monthly retail therapy. Of course I also save some money every month."

"Yup. Now, the money you spend is at some level, an income for someone else. Now the person who gets your money also goes out and spends the money he earns, which in turn is an income for someone else, and so the loop continues. This is known as the multiplier effect. The greater the multiplier effect, the greater the impact on the growth of the economy, because it basically boils down to people earning more and spending more. And the multiplier effect of this investment-led growth strategy is collapsing. As a recent note of Pivot Capital Management says, "The effectiveness of domestic credit in generating growth is collapsing. In the period from 2000 to 2008, it took on average $1.5 of credit to generate $1 of GDP growth in China. This compares very favourably with the peak $4 of credit for $1 of GDP in the USA in 2008. However in the first half of 2009 in China this ratio was already at around $7 of credit for $1 of growth.

Credit might be going into the luxury property and stock markets, but the trickle down to the real economy is very poor." So the bottom-line is it is taking more and more money to generate the same kind of growth. And a lot of this money is being used to construct bridges and roads to nowhere.

"Also, the easy credit policy pushed by the government has "boosted construction activity and the residential real estate market". At the same time, property prices have been on an upswing. As Chancellor writes, "Over the course of the last decade, national home prices rose at an annual rate of 8% according to Morgan Stanley. This consistent performance has fostered a widespread belief that property prices can only go up"¦ Last year, sales of residential properties climbed to 3.8 trillion renminbi, up 87% on 2008. Average home prices rose by 8% in 2009. Several local markets saw stronger gains, rising by 20% or more."

"And that is a problem?"

"Of course. Take the case of Beijing. The house price-to-income ratio is at now 15. For the period 2000-2008, it was 10. This means house prices have gone way beyond the affordability of the common man."

"But if that's the case, shouldn't prices be coming down?"

"Yes, they should be. But the thing is "much of this excess supply is being held off the market by property "investors." A recent survey found that nearly a fifth of all recently sold properties were kept vacant. Since new apartments tend to fall in price if they are rented out, many of these investor properties are kept empty."

"I see," she said.

"Also this easy money policy has also led to ghost towns being developed. "A news clip on YouTube (originally from Al-Jazeera) shows the newly constructed "ghost town" of Ordos. An interviewee suggested that building this empty city, with housing for a million, had let local officials meet their growth targets." The infrastructure being created is being sponsored by local governments and financed by government-owned banks. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of this infrastructure isn't really required. Given that, there is very little chance that these bridges, roads and railway networks that are being created will earn enough to pay back the loans that have been taken."

"So how will these loans be repaid?"

"As Chancellor points out "If the economy continues growing at its past rate, then it's assumed all of those new airports and toll roads will generate future revenues. Alternately, local governments could finance the loans with receipts of future land sales. The trouble is that land sales currently account for some half of local government revenue. So if the real estate market tanks, then the local authorities may have trouble fulfilling their implicit obligation to make good the infrastructure loans." So in a way, the government has an incentive to keep the real estate bubble going and keep investing. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen."

"And?"

"And what? That's it."

"You have nothing else to say?"

"Well, these white shorts you are wearing look really good on you"¦"
 

badguy2000

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A very interesting and easy to read article about the trouble brewing in Chinese economy explained with nice examples. Must read and highly recommended..


the article get one point here: chinese local government rely on land grant fee too much. it is the ultimate reason why CHinese real estimates are so expensive.
If CCP wants a more balanced development, such a "land-grant-fee depending modern" should be changed or reformed.

However, the article has a popular hobby of west article: right reasons,wrong conculsion.

CHinese economy won't "collapse" due to such a reason.
 

shotgunner

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MOD EDIT: Infraction added , please take this as warning, No personal attack is allowed and note that while we do not encourage getting personal while on any other members and/or religion and nationality, insult of the Mods are strictly prohibited, this is your first and last warning
 
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Oracle

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France use real numbers? Back it up

So "Chinois" is French indeed, why hasn't the mod warned you or something? (No worry, I know what they are made of)

Can't find "Banque" from English dictionary, so what is it? Ni Zhe Sa Bi Zhe hao Wan!
Banque is Bank in French.
 

shotgunner

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MOD EDIT: If you have problem with posts report it. Don't shout here.
 
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Armand2REP

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Pintu said:
Comment Editted... Reason: objectionable word edited out, please don't get personal with any member here
Sorry sir, but Chinois is not offencive in the least. It is French for Chinese. Just as Chini is Hindi for Chinese.

Banque is Bank in French.
Yes, and it is also British English. Last time I checked they were the originators of the language. They use many French spellings.
 

Agantrope

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No way for china to get crash.

My 3 paisa

1) US will surely get screwed up
2) Euro is weak now after the recession wave in the Europe, The world cant afford a weak dollar. (this is showing me the 1929-33 Economic Depression)
3) Implosion may occur in china and it adversaries may be still very worst.

I think one family one house will do some magic i hope. As for now stronger china will help the world to come out of its recession
 

badguy2000

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No way for china to get crash.

My 3 paisa

1) US will surely get screwed up
2) Euro is weak now after the recession wave in the Europe, The world cant afford a weak dollar. (this is showing me the 1929-33 Economic Depression)
3) Implosion may occur in china and it adversaries may be still very worst.

I think one family one house will do some magic i hope. As for now stronger china will help the world to come out of its recession
"china to collapse" now is the cheapest way to anybody who want to attract more attention and focus from medias.

Without "china to collapse", Gordon CHang would be still a guy unknow to the public.

Although Gordon Changs' failed to predict the future of China, he indeed succeed in get himself well known all over the world.

Gordon Chang's success encourages more and more zilchs to sing "china to collapse" .
 
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Armand2REP

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No way for china to get crash.

My 3 paisa

1) US will surely get screwed up
2) Euro is weak now after the recession wave in the Europe, The world cant afford a weak dollar. (this is showing me the 1929-33 Economic Depression)
3) Implosion may occur in china and it adversaries may be still very worst.

I think one family one house will do some magic i hope. As for now stronger china will help the world to come out of its recession
Everyone keeps saying "no way, China is too big to fail." Bottom line is China's mess is too big to be bailed out by anyone other than their FOREX reserves or sticking a mass-load of debt on the public balance sheet to bail-out the banks. China will do the later because they can't dump their FOREX without wrecking the RMB and suffer a major devaluation of holdings.

1-2-3. there isn't anything the world can do about China except brace for it.
 

Agantrope

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Everyone keeps saying "no way, China is too big to fail." Bottom line is China's mess is too big to be bailed out by anyone other than their FOREX reserves or sticking a mass-load of debt on the public balance sheet to bail-out the banks. China will do the later because they can't dump their FOREX without wrecking the RMB and suffer a major devaluation of holdings.

1-2-3. there isn't anything the world can do about China except brace for it.
Give me one good reason that states that China will flunk, with some evidence?
 

badguy2000

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Give me one good reason that states that China will flunk, with some evidence?
well, guy, you underestimate MR. Armand toooooo much.

Anytime,senior China-bearish officials like MR Armand have enough good ready reasons to explain why CHina is doomed to collaspe, whatever China's situation is .

1. When CHina growh rate is less than 8%, he can explain why China is doomed to collapse due to reason A.B and C;
2 When CHina growth rate is 8-10%, he can explain why CHina is doomed to collapse due to reason D.E and F;
3 When China growth rate is 10%+, he can expalin why CHina is doomed to collapse due to reason G.H and I.

Besides, MR. Amarnd seems to have learn lesson and never point out the particular date when CHina is to collaspe,his song of "china to collapse" can never end.
 
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Armand2REP

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Give me one good reason that states that China will flunk, with some evidence?
Huge hidden debt that is arising with NPLs... Here is your evidence.

 
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ahmedsid

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BadGuy, Take this as a Stern Warning. We Wont Allow Name Calling or Unparliamentary Language here in our Forum. You should know better, Please Heed to this. God Speed
 

sob

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China has been sweeping most of it's troubles under the carpets and at the same time has managed to solve many of it;s issues. However with a secretive way of working they are not helping their situation, and it is only encouraging China skeptics to add up all the bad news that filter out and magnify them as per their own calculations. And the Chinese Govt has done nothing major to rebut these arguments.

I am a firm believer that what goes around will one day come back to hit you on your face, how prepared China is to handle that eventuality, all of us will are very anxiously watching out for.
 

agentperry

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what type of breakdown. just like recession in usa with people going jobless and property crash. or many of the non performing assets formally exiting market creating unemployment and decline in production? china has enough reserve to counter any of such fall for quite a long period of time. basic commodity getting costlier will be tough to take on but still i think china will come out, though with bloody hands but it will.

meanwhile to correct itself it may suspend unconditional regards to pakland which will be good to see.
 

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