China losing influence in Zambia

Discussion in 'China' started by Armand2REP, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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  3. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The problem wherever the Chinese make their presence is that they take over the economy.

    They are enterprising, industrious, ready to take risks, very hardworking and can do with little lifestyle amenities.

    The fact that they also quickly take over the petty business in which ever country they go to and do well, drives the locals out of business. This naturally encourages the locals to detest the Chinese, since they cannot give competition. Further, the Chinese peddle cheap Chinese goods and since everyone loves a bargain products, they do better than locals who sell traditional and imported western goods, which are expensive.

    Interestingly, they are tolerated in Angola, but as you go North or East, you find their likeability decreases since they have taken over the economy to including petty businesses!

    In Malaysia, I found that the Chinese had Mercedez Benzs outside their house, but inside it was more minimalistic than the world minimalistic and the man was a multimillionaire ten times over!

    The Chinese have a stranglehold over the Malaysian economy and so inspite of Mahatir's Bhumiputra legitimising the racial social and economic disadvantage over other ethnic groups, he could not make Malaysia into a totally Islamic state which was his plan!

    Chinese, tussi great ho!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2011
    A.V. likes this.
  4. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    When people start to detest Chinese invasion it will lead to political repercussions calling for protectionism. In the end, Chinese will suffer great losses of investment and opportunity they once enjoyed.
     
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  5. charlyondfi

    charlyondfi Regular Member

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    Only from the link & Ray's excellent observation, we could NOT conclude anything, like Armand did although he could be right for Zambia case, unless we cut deep in the essence: exactly what Chinese brought in -- pushing locals out of market & competition with cheaper, perhaps inferior, Chinese products (sometimes Chinese also do well in importing from sources other than China, when necessary, like the case in Indonesia) is GOOD OR NOT TO LOCALl society, especially poor or middle-class people's welfare, at a grand evaluation.

    As long as entering a market, and you make your edge either thru efficiency or else, someone will be out of business for sure. That statement that "people start to detest Chinese", without specification who exactly, is too simple, IMO. You can replace the term with like USA in business case.

    -- More deliberation on Indonesia story, I would like to let you know: Chinese do more than 60% petty business there, even before CRP hold China (~1949). That supply chains can include basics like rice. Very often, they become scapegoat when the price of global/import rice rockets, these petty shops can NOT but also raise their offer price. And local government, sometimes province and sometimes GOI (Indonesia), blame them under name of greedy, partly to cover incompetent governance. In short, many (traditional) Chinese are so vulnerable to political maneuvering, actually.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2011
  6. amitkriit

    amitkriit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Problem with China is that it favors and supports rough and isolated regimes. It works as long as they are in power, but once these regimes are toppled China will loose everything.
     
  7. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    It already happened in Libya, the Army of 36,000 migrant workers are not coming back and new investment is frozen. They will be lucky to get a 1:1 swap of assets.

    When Africans see Chinese taking their jobs and flooding the country with cheap crap, they don't sit on the sidelines. We already have seen several riots, some of them deadly. When Chinese lose their hold on the politicians whose opposition is elected on anti-Chinese rhetoric, the outcome is inevitable China will lose out.

    It really is that simple in Africa. They see them every day doing it in their face.
     
  8. charlyondfi

    charlyondfi Regular Member

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    Dear Armond:
    I don't intend to stick to this thread too much. Can be my last post here. I admit you will win by persistence.
    My point is simple: Chinese cheap/inferior products, like all arguments about globalized economy, should have made more (poor?) people enjoy what they never can (at low price) -- proof: they sold good and as you indicated can push local/traditional shops out of business.
    Those riot = those who benefit from Chinese product? Question... ...
    Result of the riot (riot did exist, according to your link, though I still NOT see it's the result of Chinese product, but rather internal affair) = return jobs to them (assumed) = a real victory for those who benefit from Chinese product? Question...
    I quit this argue as I admit I am NOT the one to prepare tones of data & interview, especially for those illiterate who can NOT even afford showing their opinion on media/internet but really benefit from Chinese products... ...
    -- please remember what I refer for Indonesia story: you know, local people got mad as they believe GoI (Indonesia) propaganda that it's greedy Chinese raise the rice price, instead a market symptom. They riot and rob those shops under silent approval by government (free creepies!!). Convenient truth & every Indonesian win, right? well, yes if you do NOT want to face the real cause of incompetent governance and that break of those supply chain only get your next day/month rice more expensive (or price NOT competitive enough)... ...
     
  9. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Does it matter if the global market is the real culprit for the problem? The fact is these 3rd World politicians readily blame the Chinese for all their problems and they get violent backlash to Chinese communities. The tension and the blame mongering only gets worse with each passing year. The Chinese don't blend in with the local society and instead have their own sealed community. Locals resent this and they watch them prosper and their own lives not getting better, that becomes a festering wound.
     
  10. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Perhaps a bit over optimistic - often those politicians (in this case M. Sata) may have said one thing for gaining popularity, but once in power he has to get practical just like Libyan ex-rebels now mellowing their tone respecting deals made with Chinese and China's involvement in 'reconstruction' . Despite resentment from some, meanwhile many love Chinese presence. Of course Chinese entreprises really need to change their mindset and make their business more sustainable by benefiting the locals more.

    Those observations abt Chinese pushing locals out of business, or 'puritan' lifestyle are all true. Even at home many wealthy self-made Chinese entrepreneurs lead a humble life (they could have been peasants). When Walmart / Carrefour / Auchan /Metro /Tesco came mom-n-pop stores got squeezed too here.

    Don't wanna be labeled racist but why even with Bumiputra alike 'locals' still don't prosper?

    Who can fill the vacuum if Chinese get pushed out, while any foreign investors are not up for charity?
     
  11. agentperry

    agentperry Senior Member Senior Member

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    in the name of infra development china is helping other nations. but this is a very basic and naive statement. infra development is called a founding stone for further development of the nation because it not only give the manufacturers space and facility to setup facilities but also it provides employment to many. infra development projects are labor intensive thats why even if a country is developing its infra then also it can wipe out most of its umeployment. to enhance the speed of dev countries allow massive FDI and FII. similar thing was done by many african coutries and as a result china was given warm welcome. but the main problem was that china not only invested by bringing in capital machinery and other things but also bought labor from china. a below average zambian can easily drive a truck but no they need a chinese driver. all the laborers for jobs like this and that of higher gravity was filled by chinese and only the low class jobs like cleaning of chimney and all which are hazardous was offered to afros. this is not fair. the basic essence of infra development activity is lost in this scenario. moreover the whole activity is a result of several MoUs which china signed with respective african nations and now even for this fraud china demands payback in form of cheap raw materials and all for factories in china.
    on papers zambia got bridges and road and powerplants. there factories or should i say processing plants are working again, there ports are functional again and exports are increasing but on ground people are still uneployed and they are losing there resources for nothing of their use, means a flyover is useless if they dont own a car, a factory is useless if they are not getting any job in it.

    adding to it chinese workers have settled their with their family which to enhance their income indulge in small businesses like poultry and retail. as they have excess to all the tech advances of homeland china( they now the manufacturer and can order them which will be shipped through chinese ships docking african ports). this has wiped out many of the local business and already poor africans are now below earth.

    this is the main reason for losing influence among zambians and africans. moreover the good stats that their respective govts make are more than enough for their respective political leaders to come closer to china but not for people which make up that nation.
     
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  12. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Chinese interests would be much better served if they leave the Army of labourers at home and hire locals for everything they can. Setting up training programmes would be a big step to help them make inroads with the locals.
     
  13. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    During Mao era, China aided in contruction of a Tanzania-Zambia railway. After decades when Chinese were back the railroad was found mal-managed, without Chinese engineers. Cynically in many countries hiring locals i/o Chinese labor would have killed those projects. Lets say, in Libya there once were 36k Chinese workers. Would Libyans have filled those vacancies with the same willingness and competence???
     
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  14. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Chinese try to have a pro Chinese government in place as long as they can and in that time
    they pillage the country. This has been the Chinese modus operandi for third world nations for
    western nations it is different.
     
  15. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Lets say, Libyans wanted to work as it was one of their biggest complaints of the Gaddafi regime. 30,000 dead later they finally have him gone so yeah, I think they would have the same willingness. The Libyan population was better educated than most Chinese and starting up training programmes for them to gain the skills as happens in most Western countries would have been the appropriate thing to do. China picks regimes that don't care about putting their people to work but leaders taking the most bribes so they will tolerate hoards of Chinese manual labour.
     

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