China-India ties poised for an 'orbital jump,' says Doval

[Ripples]

Personally, you would like to see it happen.

Personally, I would love to see it happen.

Yes I know you would love. But the point is whether Indian army will like it or not . Having spent at least 6 times more than Pakistani Army they are yet to be prepared even for a limited war with Pakistan and you want them to take on China ? . Before every crisis came around the standard vouch and boasting of Indian Army sounded like " we are ready for every eventuality and will give a befitting reply to our enemy " and when the actual situation came the Army version slightly changed and sounded some what like " We are in severe shortage of vital equipment and ammunition, we are not ready for war " Lets ruminate and gloat on 1971 and have a tight sleep.
A highly corrupted organisation of a corrupted nation. Even Vietnam has the necessary guts to stand up against China but we Indians are real pussy.

 

[Ray]

Yes I know you would love. But the point is whether Indian army will like it or not . Having spent at least 6 times more than Pakistani Army they are yet to be prepared even for a limited war with Pakistan and you want them to take on China ? . Before every crisis came around the standard vouch and boasting of Indian Army sounded like " we are ready for every eventuality and will give a befitting reply to our enemy " and when the actual situation came the Army version slightly changed and sounded some what like " We are in severe shortage of vital equipment and ammunition, we are not ready for war " Lets ruminate and gloat on 1971 and have a tight sleep.
A highly corrupted organisation of a corrupted nation. Even Vietnam has the necessary guts to stand up against China but we Indians are real pussy.

When the push comes to the shove, the armed forces are geared to deliver.

Just as you see in Kashmir now, when all have failed.

Got that Steve?

You fly the Indian flag, so I take it that you are an Indian.

You may wet your pants in full free flow, but the armed forces are not your ilk.

Indeed, there is a shortage, but what of it? It can be made up in a jiffy, because money shall flow and the stuff will come. And yes, just as it happened in 1971.

Before every crisis came around the standard vouch and boasting of Indian Army sounded like " we are ready for every eventuality and will give a befitting reply to our enemy " and when the actual situation came the Army version slightly changed and sounded some what like " We are in severe shortage of vital equipment and ammunition, we are not ready for war "
Lets ruminate and gloat on 1971 and have a tight sleep.
A highly corrupted organisation of a corrupted nation. Even Vietnam has the necessary guts to stand up against China but we Indians are real pussy.

If one is not ready for war, does it mean one sits on his haunches and weep?

Maybe that is your genre.

I have heard of 'cry a river', but you give a new dimension - cry a river with uncontrollable bladder with fear.

Friend (sic!), I am glad that folks like you are those who can be counted on the fingers in India.

Corrupt organisation?

Not as corrupt as your fear crazed mind churn.

Are you of the Communist hue who love is for their fraternal brothers?

Ripple is it?

Christ, a wetting to cause a river is what is more appropriate.

If you have no faith in your country, then you should be treated beneath contempt.

Also if you are an illiterate in history, then study up Nathu La, Cho la and Sumdorong Chu and many other unreported stand offs.

 

[thethinker]

A highly corrupted organisation of a corrupted nation. Even Vietnam has the necessary guts to stand up against China but we Indians are real pussy.

Downright disrespectful and basically insulting and questioning bravery+patriotism of all of those IA soldiers who have died defending the nation.

Pathetic.

 

[Ray]

Downright disrespectful and basically insulting and questioning bravery+patriotism of all of those IA soldiers who have died defending the nation.

Pathetic.

He is a disgraceful element.

He can't handle the truth!

We live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? He? He, who is busy wetting his pants at the imagery of the Chinese hordes, floating his nightmares menacingly?

He doesn't want the truth.

Deep down, in places he and his pant wetters don't talk about the truth at parties, they want others on that wall to save them.

I pity this Ripples man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom the Indian military provides and then has the gall and temerity to question the manner in which the Indian military provides it!

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to such a person charged with such low esteem of his being and who is unable to control his bladder every time he sees ghosts of the Chinese hordes menacingly floating in his inner eye. Coward par excellence! Gutless parasite on the Indian nation to say the least.

I suggest he picks up a weapon and stand a post to learn that one can control one's free flowing bladder.

Either way, I don't give a damn

 

[Ripples]

When the push comes to the shove, the armed forces are geared to deliver.

Just as you see in Kashmir now, when all have failed.

Got that Steve?

You fly the Indian flag, so I take it that you are an Indian.

You may wet your pants in full free flow, but the armed forces are not your ilk.

Indeed, there is a shortage, but what of it? It can be made up in a jiffy, because money shall flow and the stuff will come. And yes, just as it happened in 1971.



If one is not ready for war, does it mean one sits on his haunches and weep?

Maybe that is your genre.

I have heard of 'cry a river', but you give a new dimension - cry a river with uncontrollable bladder with fear.

Friend (sic!), I am glad that folks like you are those who can be counted on the fingers in India.

Corrupt organisation?

Not as corrupt as your fear crazed mind churn.

Are you of the Communist hue who love is for their fraternal brothers?

Ripple is it?

Christ, a wetting to cause a river is what is more appropriate.

If you have no faith in your country, then you should be treated beneath contempt.

Also if you are an illiterate in history, then study up Nathu La, Cho la and Sumdorong Chu and many other unreported stand offs.

All my comments irrespective of how much disagreement it is might be to your opinion was entirely directed toward Indian Army and had hardly anything to do with you as a person but your post seems to be a personal slander. Since it is your first mistake while addressing me I am just going to leave you by saying that please don't try it again since otherwise you might end up repenting your words. You like or not unprofessional thugs of Indian army/IAF such as J.N Choudhuri are the reasons behind the inconclusive end of 1965 Indo-Pak war and many other debacles such as kargil . If fearlessness at the grass root level is the only mark of a combat force then Talibans are standing shoulder to shoulder with Indian army(If not Far above). It is the discretion of action and realisation of fear of ramification yet functioning at the optimum level that makes a genuinely professional sane army. I understand that India army is filled with fearless low IQ brigadiers and there is no much space and requirement for self introspection but just for your tranquility of mind let me inform you that my Forbes IQ as of today is 146. The number of causalities in Nathula and Chola incidents are overly fabricated by IA and the data in Wikipedia keep changing on regular basis. And one has to be as stupid as Pakistani mullahs to believe that 40 years after those incidents a proud roguish nation like China with an army driven by indigenous industry is some how balanced by Indian Army with 25% resource compared to PLA out of which a considerable portion is eaten up by corrupted Indian Army top brass/bureaucrats/politicians and a lot is wasted by usual miss management of this public organisations. Mr.Roy,Better you ponder on your own nationality and how much worthy it really was as a service towards this nation and leave my issues with me, since Ex DG police of WestBengal served this state so well that presently lying in hospital clutching his right chest while complaining a stiff pain in the right chest . If you don't like my posts just ignore them and do not care to reply with a personal attack but as long as I see a post that is not sensible as per my point of view I will assert my points with strongest yet objective language since I do not believe in personal attacks. Having said this let me mention one more time that I have no issues with a counter attack with a hammer right on the insolent head. Have a nice time Roy. Thanks for reading me. (Since I do not run an awareness NGO I don't give a damn either about the financially rich yet low IQ citizens pooping in public forums)

 

[Ripples]

Downright disrespectful and basically insulting and questioning bravery+patriotism of all of those IA soldiers who have died defending the nation.

Pathetic.

So what ? we keep talking crap on politicians whole day long. Why Army should be left out ? Let me remind you It is not Pakistan. Army is not an incarnation of Allah in this country. Bravery is just another quality of human beings like many others. What an Army man does I can't and it it is also equally valid for the reverse equation. Even Pakistani soldiers are no less patriotic but it is their false sense of history, state of denial and religious hard line that have taken them down time and again. Nothing can be more important and just than rational point of view and an understanding of greater goods. Nationality , patriotism and everything else comes only after that. When we criticize an organisation we basically criticize its decisions and the ramifications that stems out of those. Since i do not have a catalogue of the names of Indian army personal I can only criticize and point out they faulty operations and dubious stands taken by them in high frequency. It goes without saying that if it were not for them Pakistani Army would have been sitting in Delhi after having they snacks in Jaisalmer . But those were not the people who made the decisions. Their sacrifice went in vain for the rascals sitting in the upper crest. Drawing this conclusion (questioning bravery+patriotism) from my primary would only tantamount to Pakistani claims that any one disliking Pak Army must be against Islam and therefore against Pakistan so lets behead them

 

[thethinker]

So what ? we keep talking crap on politicians whole day long. Why Army should be left out ? Let me remind you It is not Pakistan. Army is not an incarnation of Allah in this country. Bravery is just another quality of human beings like many others. What an Army man does I can't and it it is also equally valid for the reverse equation. Even Pakistani soldiers are no less patriotic but it is their false sense of history, state of denial and religious hard line that have taken them down time and again. Nothing can be more important and just than rational point of view and an understanding of greater goods. Nationality , patriotism and everything else comes only after that.

The fact that you spew such nonsense is because IA is not political unlike Pakistan.

Criticizing corruption in army is one thing and calling them cowards just because as per you "we do not stand upto China" is another. Do you even know that IA gets its orders from the politicians in Delhi?

 

[Ripples]

The fact that you spew such nonsense is because IA is not political unlike Pakistan.

Criticizing corruption in army is one thing and calling them cowards just because as per you "we do not stand upto China" is another. Do you even know that IA gets its orders from the politicians in Delhi?

Unless you think It is only you who is omniscient with an international patent on knowledge I suppose I do. Yes certain people in Army top brass turns into businessmen by the time they reach that chair. They loose motivation and passion for valor after being severely mauled and insulted for years by earlier nut jobs in the name of sacred chain of command. They realize how ever much they try they can not bridge the gap that exists between the stated ideology of of Army as an institution and the action on the ground. So they learn to live for themselves.

 

[thethinker]

Unless you think It is only you who is omniscient with an international patent on knowledge I suppose I do. Yes certain people in Army top brass turns into businessmen by the time they reach that chair. They loose motivation and passion for valor after being severely mauled and insulted for years by earlier nut jobs in the name of sacred chain of command. They realize how ever much they try they can not bridge the gap that exists between the stated ideology of of Army as an institution and the action on the ground. So they learn to live for themselves.

That is corruption.

Your claim about "not standing upto China" is what is disrespectful to those who are martyred.

And frankly, generalizing all corrupt generals with the the whole of IA basically denotes a certain kind of ignorance and immaturity.

 

[Ripples]

That is corruption.

Your claim about "not standing upto China" is what is disrespectful to those who are martyred.

And frankly, generalizing all corrupt generals with the the whole of IA basically denotes a certain kind of ignorance and immaturity.

Please enlighten me with the role played by Mr. J.N Choudhuri in abruptly halting the Indian operation in west Pakistan in 1965 which I am sure you do know being a knowledgeable person (in case you don't want to strain your fingers typing It will be my pleasure to bring his wonderful contributions into this forum. Once you are done doing that I will surely furnish you with some more names with equal glory. Certainly they didn't work their nonsense out working isolatedly but certainly worked as a catalyst.

 

[thethinker]

Please enlighten me with the role played by Mr. J.N Choudhuri in abrupt halt in Indian operation in west Pakistan in 1965 which I am sure you do being a knowledgeable person (in case you don't want to strain your fingers typing It will be my pleasure to bring his wonderful contributions into this forum. Once you are done doing that I will surely furnish you with some more names with equal glory.

Do highlight his contributions. But while doing that, please highlight IA operations in 1971 and 1999 too.
Or do you consider few incidents and make a generalization of IA.

Then, what you say is valid. In your own mind, that is.

 

[Ripples]

Do highlight his contributions. But while doing that, please highlight IA operations in 1971 and 1999 too.
Or do you consider few incidents and make a generalization of IA.

Then, what you say is valid. In your own mind, that is.

The history of Indian Army's favorite boogie of "lack of ammunition" is dated back to decades. When Gen Choudhuri was asked about the state of Indian Armored forces after a few weeks of battle in 1965 his observation was " India has utilised 80% of its primary ammunition" while the situation was just the opposite. It was Pakistan that was exhausted of ammunition. Since war (luckily) does not take place every alternate week and are just handful of incident so I am sorry If I can not come forth with a huge list of accounts. But even in those few incidents Indian army made series of intentional blunders. Since our Pakistani counterpart could pull of an even greater number of strategic nonsense the monuments of failures of IA was forgiven and forgotten. When we talk about an institution like Army we talk about their decision making abilities and the decision making body of any organization is always a small group. So no matter how much Chivalry IA soldiers must have exhibited in the battle field it can do very little when it comes to the momentous blunders committed by the Generals. I will talk about the other few incidents only after hearing your comments on my remark on Gen.Choudhuri,

 

[thethinker]

The history of Indian Army's favorite boogie of "lack of ammunition" is dated back to decades. When Gen Choudhuri was asked about the state of Indian Armored forces after a few weeks of battle in 1965 his observation was " India has utilised 80% of its primary ammunition" while the situation was just the opposite. It was Pakistan that was exhausted of ammunition. Since war (luckily) does not take place every alternate week and are just handful of incident so I am sorry If I can not come forth with a huge list of accounts. But even in those few incidents Indian army made series of intentional blunders. Since our Pakistani counterpart could pull of an even greater number of strategic nonsense the monuments of failures of IA was forgiven and forgotten. When we talk about an institution like Army we talk about their decision making abilities and the decision making body of any organization is always a small group. So no matter how much Chivalry IA soldiers must have exhibited in the battle field it can do very little when it comes to the momentous blunders committed by the Generals. I will talk about the other few incidents only after hearing your comments on my remark on Gen.Choudhuri,

Do go through the entire set of events related to Gen Chaudhari before casting aspersions :

1965 War: General Chaudhury did not order withdrawal behind River Beas » Indian Defence Review

"It goes to the credit of those who planned the war strategy and others who took part in it, that inspite of being a weaker force, Indian army got the better of Pakistani troops and when the war ended they were decidedly and decisively on top. However to lift the prevailing fog, the entire records pertaining to this war need to declassified to place events and actions in their correct perspective. Only then will there be an end to disinformation and calumny. Gen Chaudhury was a brilliant strategist and Harbaksh a great field commander. These controversies do injustice to them and belittle Gen Chaudhury's services to the nation."

 

[thethinker]

Duplicate post.

 

[Ripples]

Duplicate post.

You may certainly believe what ever you want but I am strictly against any kind of face saving conspiracy theories
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The "Official History of the 1965 War", drafted by the Ministry of Defence of India in 1992, was a long suppressed document that revealed other miscalculations. According to the document, on 22 September when the Security Council was pressing for a ceasefire, the Indian Prime Minister asked commanding Gen. Chaudhuri if India could possibly win the war, were he to delay accepting the ceasefire. The general replied that most of India's frontline ammunition had been used up and the Indian Army had suffered considerable tank losses. It was determined later that only 14% of India's frontline ammunition had been fired and India held twice the number of tanks as Pakistan. By this time, the Pakistani Army had used close to 80% of its ammunition."

This is just the beginning. But I tired for now. Please keep me posted on your views. will get back later.Thanks

 

[thethinker]

You may certainly believe what ever you want but I am strictly against any kind of face saving conspiracy theories
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The "Official History of the 1965 War", drafted by the Ministry of Defence of India in 1992, was a long suppressed document that revealed other miscalculations. According to the document, on 22 September when the Security Council was pressing for a ceasefire, the Indian Prime Minister asked commanding Gen. Chaudhuri if India could possibly win the war, were he to delay accepting the ceasefire. The general replied that most of India's frontline ammunition had been used up and the Indian Army had suffered considerable tank losses. It was determined later that only 14% of India's frontline ammunition had been fired and India held twice the number of tanks as Pakistan. By this time, the Pakistani Army had used close to 80% of its ammunition."

I would rather believe something written by an IA officer rather than Wikipedia which can be edited by anyone to suit their agenda.

Especially for historical events.

 

[Ripples]

I would rather believe something written by an IA officer rather than Wikipedia which can be edited by anyone to suit their agenda.

Especially for historical events.

And I would rather believe in the official accounts of 1965 war as per GOI http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1965War/PDF/index.html . No issues , difference of perception is always welcome but just calling my point of view frivolous based on another perception will be bullying since I am also presenting a credible source. Soon we will be talking on other incidents on 62,65,71,99 ............

 

[thethinker]

And I would rather believe in the official accounts of 1965 war as per GOI Official 1965 War History . No issues , difference of perception is always welcome but just calling my point of view frivolous based on another perception will be bullying since I am also presenting a credible source. Soon we will be talking on other incidents on 62,65,71,99 ............

Considering your vigorous enthusiasm about various IA controversies, here is what you do as a concerned Indian citizen that needs explanation:

a) Contact IA through their website. The Contact Us section.
b) Ask them to explain all your queries about various incidents in 62, 65, 71 and 99.


Post them here so that everyone will benefit. That way, everything will be cut and dry.

Also there would be no point to discuss this till you do that since sources and their credibility will always be a concern. Without that, this would not be a credible discussion at all.

 

[Ahsan Bin Tufail]

Every single patriotic Army person deserved to be respected since he is doing his duty and nothing wrong for the defence of his nation. Moral support of Armed Forces Personnel is a huge confidence building measure that is expected of every patriotic citizen of a country. In my opinion, criticizing Army in public forums would do more harm to the morale of Armed Forces Personnel than good. Needless to say that it is the Army who do the protection job for the nation in case of war and they are trained for this single task throughout their career. In my humble opinion, if a nation has survived the horrors of a war and is progressing to become a more vibrant player of International community, than its Army is doing a decent job. Rest God knows better.

 

[Ripples]

Every single patriotic Army person deserved to be respected since he is doing his duty and nothing wrong for the defence of his nation. Moral support of Armed Forces Personnel is a huge confidence building measure that is expected of every patriotic citizen of a country. In my opinion, criticizing Army in public forums would do more harm to the morale of Armed Forces Personnel than good. Needless to say that it is the Army who do the protection job for the nation in case of war and they are trained for this single task throughout their career. In my humble opinion, if a nation has survived the horrors of a war and is progressing to become a more vibrant player of International community, than its Army is doing a decent job. Rest God knows better.

As I mentioned in my earlier posts ,in India, army is not even nearly as important or relevant as it is in Pakistan and this has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's so called patriotism. If we were to follow your logic then even in administration and government organisations there are thousands of people working for paltry salary under stiff constraints to generate national wealth, a part of which is ultimately used to pay up the salary and for the well being of the personals of defense sector. We just can't stop talking about rampant corruption and worthless work culture Just to keep up their sagging moral ! can we? Similarly in spite of all the great sacrifices made by our armies and all the respect that we may have for them we should not stop us calling spade a spade. Every individual has a right and contribution towards the nation in his or her own way. Since we are all shareholders therefore it is absolutely unnecessary to attribute any sacredness to army. Defence mechanism of a nation is not just about it's armed forces. Geography,resource, quality of social structure , moral values,education, strength of diplomacy along with the armed forces together constitute the complete defence of a nation against all kind of internal and external threats. Out of all these components armed forces by its own is only for short term solution and is the hard power and it needs right diplomacy for long term strategic maneuvers which India severely lacks. 99 kargil was no master plan by Pakistani army rather a very short sighted and utterly foolish one. The entire fault was of Indian army for have not been able to read the psych of its eternal enemy. India inflicted small kargils on Pakistan in the past so it was well expected that Pakistan would and should try something similar at appropriate moment. Even there were intelligence reports apprehending such an attempt. Yet it happened. and result ? hundreds of Indian army men died covering the fat bums of big boys. People also made some profits buying coffins for the deans (Thanks to Pakistan). Similarly Pakistani corrupted general thought he could send some light infantry and terrorists from Pakistani cottage industry and capture such a large chunk of territory simply because India got away with a tactically somewhat similar yet vastly downsized operation is the past. They didn't even bother to have a contingency plan !!! At least they could have smuggled a few dozens of BVRM for their F 16s!!! some long range artillary from middle east, But nothing. They failed and humiliated Pakistan internationally, leaving shocked citizens gloating around in public forums and describing how bravely Share khan fought and received shahadad as if job of the soldiers is to fight and fish for the opportunity to die while generals talk big, bungle , be in the state of denial for as long as possible , and when the pole is shoved deep inside that is the time to wear a sun glass take a sip on foreign liquor and say chor yaar agli bar zaroor dekh lenge and head for some belly dance. As far as I am concerned I only believe in what human beings can know and don't even bother to bring god into everything from urine to uranium.