China, India can 'change the world' - China Today

[Snuggy321]

mate these chinis are the most treacherous people in this whole planet.we should rather trust the pakistanis but not the chinis.if we want to maintain the integrity and sovereignty of our motherland then we should never lower our guard when dealing with china!

ya, but I never said something like opening up our borders and gift them land that India can become the PRCs new autonomous region, like he made it look like :-

Chinese government isnt a bunch of psycho islamists like the Pak government, military and ISI. If there is some level of economic relation (which already exists) they will think twice before doing anything stupid. Furthermore our military is strong enough to defend our borders, a 1962 like attack will not work this time, and our military is only becoming more and more competent. And last but not least the threat of nuclear war will be the biggest protection against war. Both our countries have come to far to endanger everything we have achieved. Once again: Neither our nor their government or military is crazy or suicidal enough for such a catastrophical scenario.

So a healthy deterrence and growing trade are and will be the basis of the Asian century. Mate, I can understand your feelings, especially after 1962. But we were not that innocent as many believe (see Dalai Lama). And sometimes we (as well the Chinese) need to overcome our mistrust, other wise there wont be a better future for Asia.

 

[Snuggy321]

The yawning trade deficit indicates that the Indian trade to China is crumbs.

Rules of free market has means how it does not become unfair.

I am sure you know what are 'anti dumping' provisions.

In economics, "dumping" is a kind of predatory pricing, especially in the context of international trade. Many governments take action against dumping to protect domestic industry.

Some countries have rules where Chinese goods are not acceptable if they were made by prison or forced labour because that is another way to keep the costs down, apart from being treated as slave labour, which is not acceptable.

In this connection, you should see the Al Jazeera documentary of the Chinese Laogai.


Fair competition may activate the economy, but not unfair ones.

I am afraid, your idea of 'cheap products' from China maybe cheap plastic toys, but those who are aware know that it goes beyond cheap plastic toys.






Are you sure that India is giving support to the Tibetans? If so, could you give some examples?

You feel that giving asylum is a 'fuss'.

Are you aware of the UN regulations on refugees and asylum seekers?

On the issue of trade, the economic well being through bilateral trade that you seem to be advocating is commendable, but it must be based on fair competition, products not made by slave labour or India compromising on its defence and sovereignty for the sake of economic growth.

It is all fine to say that the border dispute should be solved with China.

Given China's activities around Asia Pacific do you really believe that China will abdicate her claims for her economy?

If China does not abdicate her territorial claims all over Asia Pacific for the sake of her economy, I am a bit in wonderment as to why India should go head over heels to trade with China and build up such a yawning trade deficit.

Or, for those who feel that economy is paramount over social, political and territorial issues, then let us hand over whatever China wants in the form of territory and have a rip roaring trade with China.

I daresay China will allow India to have the better of the yawning trade deficit.

In short, we lose territory and become a slave to the Chinese economy and help it to get stronger to finally be the one who dictates to the world including India.

-Trade deficit is a general problem of our economy, not only with China. But you are right, GOI has to use a healthy amount of protectionism to protect the weak. Once again, China of course has to work on such matters as well, but in a whole there are many opportunities.


-And yes we support Tibetans, we even give them a parliament. How would you feel if some kahlistanis open up a parliament in Canada? And we did much more in the 50s.

-Chinas territorial claims in the SCS for instance are mostly of economic reasons, and not of Indias immediate interest. our border dispute is solvable.

And as long we can make money out of trade, it wont be stopped.

 

[Tronic]

largest aid provider in Yen, you have to purchase Made in Japan product to get their aid.
Their loan is good for your infrastructure but you really failed to utilize them, Japanese have very high standards in road building, but you used the money to build your office building, you only picked up their ODA but said no to the FDI until recently in order to protect your domestic market, but Japanese forms rarely made any profit in India.

I don't know who scared off who, the 2011 statistics show, Japanese is India's No.11 trade partner. And india is even not on the list of Japan's
List of the largest trading partners of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, obviously no one can compete with cheap Chinese junk which is affordable by even the millions of poor Indians, while only middle class Indians can afford to buy high end Japanese electronics.

 

[Ray]

I came up with this article Jim Rogers wrote many years ago, it still holds true on India as far as the trading issue is concerned. Furthermore,
Jim Rogers did predict right on Indian's Economy growth, now India has a Debt-GDP ratio more than 90%, that suggests severe inflation is going on and India has reached its bottleneck in development, it can go on borrow from IMF if this organization is willing to lend it money, but S&P has downgraded Indian credit to junk,
this makes even harder for Indian to continue borrow. it might be a good sign for India to take on a real reform.

____________________________________________________________________



BY JIM ROGERS

India


India is a land of contradictions. The country produces some of the world's brightest minds and the single most successful immigrant community in the United States. Yet roughly 50 percent of its own population is illiterate. It's a country recognized by global leaders as a high-tech superpower. Still, I often couldn't make a local phone call. There's a lot of talk among those in power in India about how the Internet super-highway will speed them to prosperity. Meanwhile, endless traffic jams and a deteriorating national highway system kept us creeping along at a snail's pace as my wife and I traveled through countryside. Goods carrying trucks can only average about 10 miles an hour crossing the country and often can be held up for days by the bureaucracy just trying to cross state lines.

I came to India prepared to find a nation about to take over the world. China has long been my call as the coming superpower for the 21st century but I figured India might give it a run for it's money. There are, after all, many similarities. Both countries have emerged after decades of restrictive political and economic systems. Both have motivated and sizeable workforces. Both are leaders in the new high-tech world. More importantly, though, leaders in both countries talk a lot about change.

But while China has embraced economic reform and capitalism, rebuilding its infrastructure, India still hasn't quite made up its mind what it wants to be. As I drove through the cities and small villages and talked to politicians and local business people, I got the sense that it's a country that抯 still uncertain if it's ready to move beyond the protectionist and anti-foreign sentiment that drove it to the brink of bankruptcy just over a decade ago when it had only three weeks of foreign currency reserves in its coffers. We constantly ran into the holdover protectionist and anti-foreign practices during our trip.

I am not quoting the full context of Roger's article since it is a waste of bandwidth.

To build infrastructure, one has to acquire land and pay compensation.

However, suffice it to say that while China has gleaming super highways and infrastructure, the poor man (Roger) does not realise that in China, one has to merely order Chai and the people are evicted (see the thread of Progress in China and the Cost to the Populace) and in its place superhighways and great infrastructure can be built.

In a democracy, such high handed tyranny cannot happen.

Articles like this have an agenda wherein selective issues are mentioned, leaving out the ones that would make the article appear a damp squib.

What could be his agenda one may well ask.

Could it be to put pressure on India so that provoke and spook India into hasty action wherein Western business gets a handout in access into the Indian market?

Already the issue of FDI is raging in India. There are many views including that it will not benefit farmers and slowly ease out the small traders and interestingly Walmart is not allowed in NY, Chicago and other parts of the US! Now, if it were such a great miracle, how come it is floundering in its own country?

But this type of article may have been designed to spook India into thinking MNCs are the sole route to saving of India!

However, let it bring cheer to China!

 

[Ray]

-Trade deficit is a general problem of our economy, not only with China. But you are right, GOI has to use a healthy amount of protectionism to protect the weak. Once again, China of course has to work on such matters as well, but in a whole there are many opportunities.

Trade deficit with China has the connotation that is way different from others. It is territorial also.

One can compromise with the enemy through a lack of character!

-And yes we support Tibetans, we even give them a parliament. How would you feel if some kahlistanis open up a parliament in Canada? And we did much more in the 50s.

Indeed, Khalistani can open up a Parliament in Canada, no problem with that provided they establish a Govt in exile.

Then India can chalk its political strategy. Till then, it is a woolly woolly contention.

-Chinas territorial claims in the SCS for instance are mostly of economic reasons, and not of Indias immediate interest. our border dispute is solvable.

And as long we can make money out of trade, it wont be stopped.

One does not look at geopolitics merely through the prism of the immediate and confined.

 

[Snuggy321]

Trade deficit with China has the connotation that is way different from others. It is territorial also.

One can compromise with the enemy through a lack of character!



Indeed, Khalistani can open up a Parliament in Canada, no problem with that provided they establish a Govt in exile.

Then India can chalk its political strategy. Till then, it is a woolly woolly contention.



One does not look at geopolitics merely through the prism of the immediate and confined.

ok. But remember, there is too much money in the game, people wont stop this.

 

[blank_quest]

ok. But remember, there is too much money in the game, people wont stop this.

Bring FDI from China and have trade , who will stop them

 

[Ray]

ya, but I never said something like opening up our borders and gift them land that India can become the PRCs new autonomous region, like he made it look like :-

Chinese government isnt a bunch of psycho islamists like the Pak government, military and ISI. If there is some level of economic relation (which already exists) they will think twice before doing anything stupid. Furthermore our military is strong enough to defend our borders, a 1962 like attack will not work this time, and our military is only becoming more and more competent. And last but not least the threat of nuclear war will be the biggest protection against war. Both our countries have come to far to endanger everything we have achieved. Once again: Neither our nor their government or military is crazy or suicidal enough for such a catastrophical scenario.

So a healthy deterrence and growing trade are and will be the basis of the Asian century. Mate, I can understand your feelings, especially after 1962. But we were not that innocent as many believe (see Dalai Lama). And sometimes we (as well the Chinese) need to overcome our mistrust, other wise there wont be a better future for Asia.

Indeed, China is not an Islamic country as Pakistan.

In fact, China is the only country that clever enough and steeped in duplicity wherein they trample underfoot the Muslims (the Uighurs are not allowed to fast during their holy month of Ramazan nor allow going to the Mosque or undertake religious instructions under the age of 18 years[check threads and Google if you wish for details] ) and at the same time, get chummy with Islamic nations.

China is worse, in that it is an expansionist and imperialist regime and Nation.

India maybe strong as you claim to deter China from any adventure, but then what stops their nibbling like rats at cheese? Given the mindset of many Indians who are merely thinking of their own comfort over the sovereignty of the Nation because of a few Chinese goods enamouring their consumerism, maybe a nibble here or there would not be bothersome, the same way it did not bother Nehru over Aksai Chin since not a blade of grass grew out there!

 

[Ray]

ok. But remember, there is too much money in the game, people wont stop this.

Money?

Is that all that one understands?

If money dictates issues, then why is India going in for the Israeli Anti Tank missile giving short shrift to the US Javelin?

In China they also feel everything and happiness boils down to money and creature comforts even if one lives like a caged animal in a gilded cage.

If China is one's ideal, then they should spend time there. There are many jobs that one can get out there, especially if one is a specialist in a field!

 

[Snuggy321]

Money?

Is that all that one understands?

If money dictates issues, then why is India going in for the Israeli Anti Tank missile giving short shrift to the US Javelin?

In China they also feel everything and happiness boils down to money and creature comforts even if one lives like a caged animal in a gilded cage.

If China is one's ideal, then they should spend time there. There are many jobs that one can get out there, especially if one is a specialist in a field!

I dont know anything about the price tags of the spikes or the javelins, but AFAIK, we will purchase the Spikes because the US wont give us TOT.
Any way OT: As long as consumers or companies get any benefit out of trading they will do it. They wont give a shit about human rights etc there. Even the self proclaimed protectors of freedom and democracy (the west) does it. Money rules. People want more of it and usually scrap their ideals for it. Like it or not

 

[Ray]

I dont know anything about the price tags of the spikes or the javelins, but AFAIK, we will purchase the Spikes because the US wont give us TOT.
Any way OT: As long as consumers or companies get any benefit out of trading they will do it. They wont give a shit about human rights etc there. Even the self proclaimed protectors of freedom and democracy (the west) does it. Money rules. People want more of it and usually scrap their ideals for it. Like it or not

That is right - TOT.

In other words, it is beyond MONEY and political considerations and instead STRATEGIC - defence of Indian sovereignty and honour!

Sovereignty and Honour cannot be reduced to MONEY as the paramount concern.

In so far as trade with China is concerned, we must have trade, but WE CANNOT SELL OUR SOULS for a few cheap stuff and not merely plastic toys but also machinery etc!

Check out Pakistan who sold their Souls to China and got cheap locomotives that were dud and then had to ask their historical 'enemy' to bail them out!

 

[roma]

1.) Germans are still not really happy about the border with Poland, Do you even know why they invaded Poland? This was done out pure racism with the aim to literally destroy the population there. This entire situation was 1000000 times worse than the 1962 war. and still they managed to achieve an alliance today.

2. Total nonsense argument. We are living in a globalized world economy. If you shut down trade, you will loose. Its simple. China is out biggest trading partner and provides us with various goods, not only for direct consumption but also as a basis for our industries.
But you are right that we should concentrate more on exports, but that isnt a problem only with China. Our trade deficit in general is bad.

Hi Snuggy - hope you dont mind that there are some rebuttals to your points:-

(1) yes germany wants part of present polish territory - but my qn to you - do they have the kind of troop deployment like india and china have - are they buying or manufacturing arms like india and china are ? ... it's just a claim on paper and they are doing it the CIVILIZED way which was what Nehru had hoped of china and alas [B] the noble man misplaced his trust[/B], he trusted a nation that cant be .

(2) as Ray has indicated in his post

on page 4 - there are measures against dumping and other forms of malpractice in trade and in the WTO ( not sure if china has joined this civilised organization ) - you see free trade doesnt mean NO RULES ! there should be rules and there are ! china doesnt want the rules so they can undercut , dump etc etc ..... in those circumstances ( which is what IS happening ) india should say NO ! and india should inspect which deals go through ( the fair trade ones ) and which dont :thumb:

 

[Ray]

1.) Germans are still not really happy about the border with Poland, Do you even know why they invaded Poland? This was done out pure racism with the aim to literally destroy the population there. This entire situation was 1000000 times worse than the 1962 war. and still they managed to achieve an alliance today.

2. Total nonsense argument. We are living in a globalized world economy. If you shut down trade, you will loose. Its simple. China is out biggest trading partner and provides us with various goods, not only for direct consumption but also as a basis for our industries.
But you are right that we should concentrate more on exports, but that isnt a problem only with China. Our trade deficit in general is bad.

The reason why Germans claimed Polish territories was because areas that included the Province of Posen and West Prussia was lost via the Treaty of Versailles following World War I.

If indeed they are unhappy today over Poland is because they have lost East Prussia, Farther Pomerania, East Brandenburg, and Lower Silesia i.e. east of the Oder-Neisse Line after World War II.

It is not racism, in the pure understanding of the word, since a large portion of the population in these area were Germans and under the Treaty of Versailles, territories with an apparent Polish majority were ceded to Poland, even if its inhabitants had voted against it during the referendum.

It maybe noted that after World War II, the so-called "German question" was an important factor of post-war German history and politics. And even though after the reunification of the two Germanys, the issue is still simmering under the surface in the same was as anti Antisemitism, which is covert and with sporadic overt manifestation.

Shutting down trade is not the answer. The answer is let there be an overall analysis of efficiency vs cost before embarking on buying Chinese goods.

Money cannot be squandered for short term gains on products whose efficiency and longevity is suspect.

 

[cinoti]

who wrote this piece of shit!must be an officer of the 50 center army i think!mate India has the most transparent system when it comes to economy!yeah its true that we are not growing for the last 2 years as we had expected but still we grew at a rate of around 6.9% last year and it'll be around 5.5% this year.n don't worry about our economic condition,we'll surely bounce back in a couple of years and will be the 3 rd largest economy by 2025.

This is a pro-India author, he contradicts your statement.


India's GDP growth languishes, headed for decade low | Reuters
By Frank Jack Daniel

NEW DELHI | Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:03am EST

(Reuters) - India's economy extended its long slump in the last quarter, with lower-than-expected growth keeping it on track for its worst year in a decade and underscoring the urgency of politically difficult reforms to spur a revival.

The economy grew 5.3 percent from a year earlier in the July-September period, provisional gross domestic product (GDP) data showed on Friday, below the 5.5 percent posted for the three months ending in June.

"It is essential that the reform agenda is carried forward with vigor and that the recently announced measures are implemented," leading business chamber FICCI said.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's chief economic advisor forecast full-year growth of between 5.5 and 6 percent, which would be the slowest since 2002/3.

"It will be between the two, because in order to get 6 percent we really need very strong growth in the second half," advisor C. Rangarajan told TV network CNBC.

A growth rate below 6 percent for the third quarter in a row is damaging for a country that aspires to at least 8.5 percent expansion to provide jobs for its burgeoning population, and makes it tougher for Singh to fund flagship welfare programs.

The quarterly number was lower than a Reuters poll had forecast and matched the January-March quarter, which was the weakest growth rate in three years. However, economists say inflation worries mean the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) is unlikely to cut interest rates when it meets on December 18.

Facing the prospect of the downturn stretching into a general election due in 2014, Singh launched some of the most daring initiatives of his eight-year tenure in September, including raising subsidized diesel prices and opening the airline and retail sectors to foreign players.

These moves are likely to encourage investment going forward, and Friday's figures showed capital formation at 33.8 percent of GDP, its highest for at least two years.

Singh, however, is fighting to defend his reforms in parliament, where a non-binding vote on the supermarket policy will be held on Wednesday. The outcome may test the minority government's appetite for further reforms ahead of a string of state elections starting in December.

RECOVERY SEEN NEXT YEAR

Despite the current gloom, most economists expect the business-friendly measures to help investment to gradually pick up and the economy to slowly recover next year.

"We are getting close to the bottom, although we are most likely talking about a `bathtub shaped` recovery with some bottom scraping in coming quarters," HSBC Global research said in a note.

The government and economists warn more needs to be done to attract capital and modernize India's decrepit infrastructure. Opposition parties say the reforms hurt the common man and weaken regional governments.

India is battling weak consumer demand in overseas and domestic markets. The rupee remains weak and the trade deficit the widest ever after merchandise exports, which make up about 10 percent of GDP, fell for six straight months. Industrial output has contracted in four out of last six months.

Reaction to the data was muted from financial markets, which were still cheering the end of a deadlock in parliament that had threatened to hold up debate on reforms to attract foreign investment in the insurance and pension industries.

Mumbai's main stock index .BSESN hit a 19-month high.

Markets were also buoyed by a mildly upbeat view from Goldman Sachs on Thursday, with a report forecasting India's economic growth was likely to accelerate to 6.5 percent in 2013.

CHIDAMBARAM PRESSES FOR RATE CUT

Growth was dragged down by subdued manufacturing output growth of 0.8 percent on the year and farming output of 1.2 pct.

Finance Minister P. Chidambaram on Friday again pressured RBI to cut interest rates, saying its tight monetary policy was a drag on the economy.

Low growth is making it harder for Chidambaram to rein in a wide fiscal deficit, which global ratings agencies say needs to be controlled if India is to avoid losing the investment grade designation on its sovereign debt.

In a major relief to the government on Tuesday, rating agency Moody's reaffirmed its stable outlook on India.

The deficit during the April-October period rose to 3.68 trillion rupees ($67.5 billion), or 71.6 percent of the budgeted full fiscal year 2012/13 target, data showed on Friday.

Chidambaram recently revised the target up to 5.3 percent form 5.1 percent, but most economists expect the government to overshoot this and hit around 5.5-5.6 percent.

The government says India needs to take more steps quickly, including speeding up approval for infrastructure projects, overhauling the tax system and reducing its swollen deficit to revive capital investment.

(Reporting by Rajesh Kumar Singh, Manoj Kumar and Arup Roychoudhury in NEW DELHI and Shamik Paul in MUMBAI; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel; Editing by Alex Richardson)

 

[Ray]

I don't know about India, but China is sure changing the world with their newly 'discovered' maps!

This is a pro-India author, he contradicts your statement.

There is no pro or against Indian author or correspondent or analyst.

They all have their agenda.

 

[cinoti]

I don't know about India, but China is sure changing the world with their newly 'discovered' maps!



There is no pro or against Indian author or correspondent or analyst.

They all have their agenda.

Check his reports, he IS very pro-india and a China basher, even him, now became prudent.

 

[Ray]

Check his reports, he IS very pro-india and a China basher, even him, now became prudent.

Would that absolve him from having an agenda?

There are many in the West who tout that India is on the way to superpower status.

But then there are many inputs that makes one a superpower.

Even China is not a qualifier.

So, who cares?

It is all agenda driven!

 

[mikhail]

Check his reports, he IS very pro-india and a China basher, even him, now became prudent.

i don't give a damn to what this "so called" expert said about India.we are doing fairly well even during the the times of recession and hopefully we'll again achieve that magical 8% growth rate in the next couple of years.our economy is nearly of 2 trillion$ and we'll be the 3rd largest economy by 2025!

 

[blank_quest]

i don't give a damn to what this "so called" expert said about India.we are doing fairly well even during the the times of recession and hopefully we'll again achieve that magical 8% growth rate in the next couple of years.our economy is nearly of 2 trillion$ and we'll be the 3rd largest economy by 2025!

Our economy is surely $2 trillion but we have some govt debt. If Chinese product will keep coming like this then this debt will only keep on increasing. So,to reduce it India has to take stringent measures and tighten the noose for "unfair trade practice" like allowing State-subsidies for Exported products.That must be balanced by higher import duties and excise tariffs. India can't just keep on adding the burden.There are many ways to neutralize the Chinese monopoly.By 2025 India can have a booming manufacturing Industry that even world would envy.Indian labors are getting "skills" through state-sponsored schemes.Its the matter of time.Hope it passes soon.

 

[cinoti]

i don't give a damn to what this "so called" expert said about India.we are doing fairly well even during the the times of recession and hopefully we'll again achieve that magical 8% growth rate in the next couple of years.our economy is nearly of 2 trillion$ and we'll be the 3rd largest economy by 2025!

Too optimistic for you I have to say, but Indian people as a whole are always optimistic, maybe a good thing.