China Fails to Copy Modern Turbofan Engines

[mahesh]

See you get moody again. Facts talk, feelings cry.

hmmm you are just choosing to answer my last phrase.

 

[Armand2REP]

i dnt know why a french is concerned about this or indian

ws-10 and ws-15 category engines are nt ever developed by france/india..neither have any plan
nor can they

than why talk about others?


the ws-10 engine max thrust is 132kn.much more than anything france can ever dream of.

and they should forgot about developing anything close to ws-15(180kn) for the next 2-3 decades

More than France could ever dream of? Please... you are talking about the country that made the Concord's engines over 40 years ago which produced more thrust without afterburner than an AL-31F with it. Making engines that big is a waste of space and weight when you can make a smaller and more efficient aircraft with less. If France had need of that class of engine, it could easily make one. It is ancient tech to us.

 

[pmaitra]

I have a lot of respect for anyone who tries. The fact that PRC tried requires commendation. Those that never fail are the ones that never try. Congrats on the attempts, and hopefully, next time, they will be successful.

Slightly OT, but just wanted to mention that Mahindra has acquired an Australian turbo-prop maker. I'd like the Tatas to jump into turbines as well. I look forward to Indian companies collaborating with the likes of Snecma, Rolls-Royce, Kuznetsov, etc., and making commercially successful turbines in India.

 

[pmaitra]

if metallurgy is the case then india has an upperhand because he have a lot of steel, but production ethics are better with the you guys

+1

It's not only steel, but also precious metals, that need to be alloyed, which again needs technical know how and expensive equipment. Then there is machining and tooling.

Even the amount of research and precision that goes into making engines of German cars is mind boggling (I was reading one of those fora the other day).

 

[G90]

Canard has a stone-age tubrojet engine, the thrust to weight ratio for its stone-aged, error-proned, and being absolutely pathetic-at-fuel-economy-ed jet engine is only 4, which is a joke comparing to jet engines installed on fighters from 1960s onwards, no wonder it is an utter commerical failure, the fail is so EPIC to the degree its utter failure has set an example to prevent others even try to design a supersonic airliners for the past half century

Today's military jet engines require tubrofan, with high-thrust and high-thrust-weight ratio and low by-pass ratio, the french can dilver ABSOLUTELY NOTHING here, thats why its rather entertaining when a french fly talks like as if they were anything beyond a joke here.

 

[Bangalorean]

See you get moody again. Facts talk, feelings cry.

Facts talk, feelings cry, and idiotic Chinese trolls get smacked in the ass when they try to act too smart.

I wonder why Chinese are such notorious cock-wavers? Really, I have not seen people of any other nation go and thump their chest on forums all over the world saying, "this is what we did, that is what we did". Do we see Americans or Europeans or Japanese or Indians going around waving their cocks about "what all we contributed to humanity since ancient times"?

It is easy to get a complete list of ancient Indian inventions and discoveries from the internet and paste them here. A simple Google search will get you that information in a second. But then, that is not what you want, eh? That wouldn't change the behaviour of an idiot Chinese troll who wants to wave his cock and say "Indian invent zero".

 

[G90]

China produced more steel than the combination of the entire rest world, and almost 15x of that of india, and 10x of that of US of A

50%+ of the world top material science journal papers were written by Chinese scientists/engineers as well.

China also control 90%+ of the world rare materials productions as of now.

So stop making any comparison when there is ABSOULATE NO Comparison here

We also produce most of other heavy industry goods that comparable to the output of the combination of the entire rest world now, no wonder China is the only true superpower, and about to be the hypepower

 

[G90]

China today is just like the USA before WW2, has all the mighty as a dominating superpower yet keeping a low key, whilst the USA today is more and more comparable to france or british before WW2, whilst france today is just like france before WW2

 

[Ray]

China produced more steel than the combination of the entire rest world, and almost 15x of that of india, and 10x of that of US of A

50%+ of the world top material science journal papers were written by Chinese scientists/engineers as well.

China also control 90%+ of the world rare materials productions as of now.

So stop making any comparison when there is ABSOULATE NO Comparison here

We also produce most of other heavy industry goods that comparable to the output of the combination of the entire rest world now, no wonder China is the only true superpower, and about to be the hypepower

How wonderful.

China invented the world.

It was the source of the Big Bang theory!

China is also the prototype of evolution.

From microbes it evolved the Chinese people.

And then China said let there be Light.

And China gave the Light!

Forgot that?

 

[ersakthivel]

Check world top material science journal like ACTA materialia: Now 1/2 to as much as 2/3 of the top material science journal papers are written by Chinese (first author of the paper), never group China with India as if they were comparable.

The main criteria in engine is how much thrust you produce for the weight of the engine,not simple plain thrust figure and how fast the full military thrust is reached?


RAFALE engines have TWR of more than 10.
The GTRE KAVERI is said to be having about 7 or in the range.
What's yours?
In RAFALE full military thrust is reached in 4 seconds, in J-10 it is said to be 2 minutes.
What is the weight of your engines?
And what is the thrust of your engines?

 

[ersakthivel]

as if you invented anything as indian.

Chinese invented compass, gun powder, paper making, type printing, paper currency, tooth brush, abacus, binary system, decimal calculation, ratio of circumference, lunar calendar, paint, crossbow, pound lock, umbrella , kite, the first rocket, the first movie, the first magnetic driven machine, the first mail service, folded fan, watermills, windmills.. list goes on. Rice cultivation and Tea Planting are now supporting millions of families in India. You have more than one flashdrives in your drawers, well, you are welcome.

Indian invented 0 (of course I am saying it in a positive way).

Do you know the value of zero? in mathematical terms and no branch of physics or mathematics would have been possible without the indian number system?

Without the 0 based indian digits all the world had before was roman numerals, with which you can do no useful big mathematical function.

All the so called inventions of your country is not comparable to a thousandth of the value of the 0 based numbers of indian mathematical system.From microscopic nano level physics to the distances in light years for stars is today calculated based on the 0 based indian mathematical system.

World can do without folded fans and kite forever ,but not a single second can pass in this digital world without a zero.

you must be a zero to be so casual about it.

 

[ersakthivel]

i dnt know why a french is concerned about this or indian

ws-10 and ws-15 category engines are nt ever developed by france/india..neither have any plan
nor can they

than why talk about others?


the ws-10 engine max thrust is 132kn.much more than anything france can ever dream of.

and they should forgot about developing anything close to ws-15(180kn) for the next 2-3 decades

Farhan , Don't get taken by simple engine thrust numbers.
It is the weight of the engine for the thrust produced and acceleration to reach the full military thrust that is important.
In this field it is yet to be proven that chinese have surpassed the french.
As it is always easy to hide the engine weight figures and blindly state the thrust figure is a way to confuse people.
Unless one WS sits on the back of your JF-17, you will never know.The RD-russian version tech sitting on the back of your JF-17 is the proof at the moment of the chinese tech is not as good or as bad as the french.

After 20 years of research , GTRE kaveri produces about 75 kn at sea level.It weighs near 1100 kg or so.
With snecma collabaration a 90 kn thrust seems possible with further reduction in weight by 100 kgs as per some open source estimates.
So our figure will reach TWR of close to 9 for the jet engine.

It chinese members post these figures it will lead to more informed discussion.
If you want the figures for FRENCH you can ask any of your PAF friends about the figure.

The whole world knows about french engine tech with 2000 mirges exported world wide.

The IAF once anted add extra 126 mirages to it's fleet. So everyone here knows about the level of french engine tech.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-15

The J-15 is reported to use different avionics and systems than the Su-33, and uses Chinese-developed technologies, and features various upgrades such as AESA radar, radar absorbent material, MAWS, IRST, composite, and new electronics.[15]

China Signpost believes the J-15 "likely exceeds or matches the aerodynamic capabilities of virtually all fighter aircraft currently operated by regional militaries, with the exception of the U.S. F-22 Raptor"[16], alleging that the J-15 possesses a 10% superior thrust to weight ratio and a 25% lower wing loading than the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet[16].

However, Hu Siyuan of the National Defense University PLA China has said that "the current weak point of the J-15 is its Russia-made Al-31 engines which are less powerful than that of the American F-35 fighter".[17]

This is the reality behind the bluster.

You can go here and see what the chinese are doing

http://airforceworld.com/pla/english/J-15-naval-carrier-based-fighter-china.html
And more in the above site,
Similarly Indians can put a fancy name on our SUKHOI-MKI and call it our total indigenous product.
but since it is a democracy, such frauds cannot be concealed here.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_WS-10

According to an interview publicised in January 2007 with J-10 pilot Li Cunbao (李存宝), the J-10 had not yet been equipped with the domestic WS-10 engine, because although the WS-10 could match the performance of its Russian counterpart (the AL-31), there was a serious drawback; the WS-10 took longer to "spool up", i.e. there was a delay in reaching the same thrust output as the Russian engine.

WS-10A is reported to have 13,200 kilograms (29,000 lb) of thrust and a 7.5:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, making it comparable to the AL-31F turbofan. The WS-10A was first displayed in public at the 2008 Zhuhai Air Show.

So it is no where near the french tech on rafale.
Infact despite all the hoopla over 13o kn engine ,it is infact in the same level of TWR relatimg to KAVERI-(K-9 version)
Atleast every one knows the k-9 has at last made this much progress concretely and high altitude trials in russia succeeded at this level of thrust.
The GTRE is asking for mating k-9 with tejas.
But no body is interested because these 7 level of TWr is practically not useful in military jet engines of today.

So we are going for a JV with snecma for close to 10 TWR level.

 

[mahesh]

See you get moody again. Facts talk, feelings cry.

you know how to end the discussion with your answering, but we know what does that mean

 

[J20!]

With 10 billion yuan allocated and more than a decade invested into the development of various types and sizes of jet engines, its far from fair to say China has "failed to copy" modern engines. China "developing" modern engines is more like it.

From 624th Institute, developing cores ranging from 5 to 35kg/s, engine thrust from 200 to 20000kgf. With more than 10 domestic engines under development including: Qingcheng (WS500 for cruise missile/UAV), Huanglong (turbojet also for missile/UAV), Minjiang, Minshan (Low thrust w/AB for L15), Jiuzhai, E'mei (WS15), Yellow Mountain, Yellow River, Everest, Chiyan.

Minjiang (medium thrust high B/P ratio, domestic CF34) and Yellow River (high thrust high B/P ratio for Y20) are named after rivers there are high by pass ratio engines.

Development of all these engines started in or before 2008.