China, Argentina set for defence collaboration, Malvinas-class OPV

Discussion in 'Americas' started by amoy, Feb 3, 2015.

  1. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    China, Argentina set for defence collaboration, Malvinas-class OPV deal - IHS Jane's 360

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    A model of China's P18 export corvette, a number of which Beijing has reportedly sold to Argentina. Somewhat controversially, the vessels in Argentine service will be known as the Malvinas class. Source: R D Fisher

    Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner is expected to sign agreements with China to increase military co-operation, including construction of new warships for the Argentine Navy, during a visit to Beijing on 3-5 February, according to media reports.

    The expanded level of Argentine-Chinese military co-operation, which has been about a year in preparation, follows the signing of a memorandum of understanding (MoU) on 29 October 2014 by an Argentine-Chinese Joint Committee on Co-operation in the Field of Defence Technology and Industry. The actual joint development programmes were finalised during a visit by a Chinese defence trade delegation to Buenos Aires in late January.

    Argentine reports indicate the agreement to be signed in Beijing could cover co-production in Argentina of the Norinco VN1 wheeled armoured personnel carrier (APC) and co-operation in building a new ice-breaker, naval tugboats, mobile hospitals, and new warships for the Argentine Navy.

    In late 2014 the Argentine government reportedly accepted a Chinese offer to meet its long-standing requirement for a new class of offshore patrol vessel. Over the last decade Argentina has considered purchasing designs from Brazil, Germany, and Spain, but China has reportedly succeeded in selling a more capable warship: a version of the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation's (CSIC) P18 export corvette.

    Somewhat controversially, this vessel will be known as the Malvinas class, after the Argentine name for the Falkland Islands: a UK sovereign territory that Argentine forces invaded in April 1982 before being defeated by a British task force in a conflict that claimed 907 lives.

    Two P18N corvettes were sold to Nigeria in 2012 for USD42 million each.

    According to Brazilian web magazine Naval Power , an initial Argentine contract may include two ships built in China and three co-produced in Argentina. An Argentine source noted the price for the ships could be USD50 million each.

    The P18 corvette displaces 1,800 tonnes, is 95 m long, 12 m wide, and is powered by two German-designed MTU 20V 4000M diesel engines to achieve a speed of 25 kt. It can be armed with a 76 mm main gun, two 30 mm cannons, up to eight anti-ship missiles, two triple torpedo launchers, and can carry one medium-sized helicopter.

    Naval Power reported that Argentina has requested a larger flight deck to handle its 10-tonne Sea King helicopters and a towed sonar to increase its anti-submarine capability.

    Delivery of the Argentine P18s could start in 2017.

    Reports from mid-2014 indicate the Argentine Army evaluated the Norinco VN1 8x8 amphibious APC, considering its 21-tonne infantry fighting vehicle variant along with 105 mm gun- and 120 mm mortar-armed versions. Argentina could acquire up to 110 VN1s, according to Naval Power .

    Venezuela's marines took delivery of the region's first VN1s at the end of December 2014.

    ANALYSIS
    If concluded, this defence agreement could mark a major step in Argentina's long-standing effort to revive its military capabilities and would constitute a major success for China's 15-year endeavour to expand its military influence and market share in Latin America.

    Since the 1982 Falklands War, China has expressed its support for Argentina's continued claims over the islands, which Beijing compares to its claim over Taiwan. However, China's willingness to accept commodity payments to finance initial loans that fund military sales has been key to its military sales success in Argentina.

    In 2011 the Fábrica Argentina de Aviones (Argentine Aircraft Factory: FAdeA) reached an agreement to start co-producing China's Changhe Z-11 light helicopter. Then, in June 2013, FAdeA sources told IHS Jane's that talks over co-production of the Chengdu FC-1 lightweight jet fighter had occurred over the previous two years. This option appears to have been lost as Argentina has tried and failed to purchase retired Dassault Mirage F1 fighters from Spain, then refurbished Israeli Aircraft Industry Kfir fighters and, in late 2014, Saab Gripen fighters co-produced in Brazil.

    However, the new Argentine-Chinese defence agreement could revive prospects for combat aircraft co-operation. In addition to the FC-1 fighter, China could offer low-cost combat-capable supersonic lead-in trainers like the Guizhou JL-9G/FTC-2000G or the Hongdu L-15.
     
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  3. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    China backs Argentina's position on Falkland Islands - Telegraph

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  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    China is aware that support of Malvina is as good as bromo paper.

    UK with US assistance being there, Malvina is only a pipedream for Argentina.
     
  5. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    Is that serious the PRC is saying Falklands position of UK is wrong

    :confused:
     
  6. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Not China alone, the Intl community supports Argentina over the Malvinas ~ see that G77 summit?

    Actions speak louder than words ~ sales or joint development of P18 corvettes, VN1 APC and so on. Prez. Kirchner's visit will attest to that too.




    ~~War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. ~~from my MiPad using tapatalk
     
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  7. karn

    karn Regular Member

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    How butthurt can you get .
    Also kudos to China for monetizing on said butthurt .
     
  8. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    China, Argentina agree on work for new nuclear power plants

     
  9. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Argentina and China agree fighter aircraft working group - IHS Jane's 360

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    Argentina and China have formed a working group to look at introducing into Argentine service either the J-10 (pictured) or FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft. Source: PA

    Argentina and China are to form a working group to look at the possible introduction into Argentine Air Force (Fuerza Aérea Argentina - FAA) service of a new Chinese fighter type, it was disclosed on 5 February.

    The working group, which was discussed during a visit by between Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner to Beijing from 2 to 5 February, will look at the possible transfer of a range of military equipment to Buenos Aries. Chief among this equipment is either the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) FC-1/JF-17 or the CAC J-10 fighter aircraft.

    Ahead of any transfer of aircraft, the working group will examine means by which the FAA might integrate such aircraft into its inventory, and support them once in service. Argentina stands to receive 14 fighter aircraft should the proposed transfer go ahead, though no timelines have been revealed.

    ANALYSIS
    For some years now, Argentina has been trying to replace its antiquated and increasingly unserviceable Dassault Mirage IIIEA, IAI Dagger, and McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawk fighter fleets with a newer and more capable type.

    News of the Argentine-Chinese working group comes weeks after it was reported that Russia had courted Argentina with the possible lease of Sukhoi Su-24 'Fencer' strike aircraft. While the UK Ministry of Defence took these reports seriously enough to review the defence of the Falkland Islands, the Su-24s would have no really operational utility for the FAA, and it would appear that any proposed transfer of such aircraft is likely the result of Russia playing political games with the UK over the continuing crisis in Ukraine.

    Other, more realistic, options that have been touted over recent months include surplus Spanish Mirage F1s, Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) Kfirs, and Saab Gripen E/Fs. All of these appear to have stalled for either economic or political reasons (the proposed buy of the Gripen E/F was effectively vetoed by the UK, which manufactures many of the aircraft's systems).

    The Chinese FC-1/JF-17 has also been previously touted as a possible option for the FAA, so it is interesting to see it once again mentioned with this latest Argentine-Chinese agreement. The J-10, however, has not been mentioned in relation to the FAA before.

    First unveiled in 2006, the J-10 bears more than a passing resemblance to the 'Euro-canard' Gripen, Dassault Rafale, and Eurofighter Typhoon fighters (it has been claimed that the J-10 was actually developed from the Israeli Aerospace Industries Lavi, which was itself modelled from the Lockheed Martin F-16).

    The single-seat, single-engined, fighter has a top speed of Mach 1.8 at altitude, a service ceiling of 55,000 ft, is cleared to +9/-3 g , has a radius-of-operation of 300 n miles (555 km; 345 miles), and a payload of 6,600 kg (14,550 lb) on 11 hardpoints. Weapons options include PL-8 (Python 3) or later air-to-air missiles (AAMs) such as PL-11 or PL-12; Vympel R-73 and R-77 AAMs; C-801 or C-802 air-to-surface missiles; YJ-8K (anti-ship) or YJ-9 (anti-radiation) missiles; and up to six 1,000 lb laser-guided or free-fall bombs. There is also an internally-mounted 23 mm cannon, and the provision for a Chinese-developed infrared/laser navigation and targeting pod.

    The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) is believed to have a requirement for up to 300 J-10s, and its inclusion in the FAA's inventory would represent a significant capability boost for Argentina.
     
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  10. t_co

    t_co Senior Member Senior Member

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    A proper response to the UK's meddling over Hong Kong.

    Let them form their committees. China will stay silent and arm Argentina to the teeth.
     
  11. Syd

    Syd Regular Member

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    I hear that the lovely Cristina loves you so much that she has now got a Chinese accent!
     
  12. karn

    karn Regular Member

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    I saw the news on a comedy show ..... I could not believe it .
     
  13. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Analysis: China looks to break into Latin American market via Argentina - IHS Jane's 360


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    Argentina could become a local marketer for China's VN1 APC. Source: Norinco

    The 5 February communique that followed a summit meeting in Beijing between the leaders of China and Argentina may have affirmed a number of previously reported military programmes, but most have yet to produce contracts.

    The programmes mentioned in the communique had previously been the subject of discussions under an Argentine-Chinese Joint Committee on Cooperation in the field of Defence, Technology, and Industry. In the naval sphere, those affirmed include the construction by China of a new icebreaker, new tugboats and new offshore patrol vessels. The latter are likely to be 1,800-ton P-18N corvettes, two of which reportedly will be built in China and up to three in Argentina.

    Army programmes affirmed include the exchange of officers, construction of field hospitals, and the co-production in Argentina of Norinco 8x8 VN1 amphibious armoured personnel carriers (APCs). In a 5 February TV interview, Argentine Minister of Defence Augustin Rossi said Argentina intended to market the VN1 to other Latin countries. If this deal materialises it will likely mean the end of Argentina's interest in purchasing Brazil's VBTP-MR Guarani wheeled APC, a co-produced version of the IVECO Superav.

    Not mentioned in the pre-summit reporting out of Argentina was the communique's announcement of a new "working group with a view to the incorporation by Argentina of Chinese designed fighter jets".

    Argentine reports from the summit indicated discussions focused on the possible sale of 14 Chengdu J-10/FC-1 fighters built in China. Sources at the Fabrica Argentina de Aviones (Argentine Aircraft Factory, FAdeA) had previously told IHS Jane's of their interest in co-producing the FC-1, raising the prospect that it would also be marketed to other Latin countries.

    However other Argentine sources note that for logistic continuity the Argentine Air Force prefers European designs such as used French Dassault Mirage 2000s or ex-Spanish Air Force Mirage F1 fighters, both the subject of recent discussions. These sources also note that the Argentine Air Force cannot afford the Chinese fighters unless they are funded under other commodity payment schemes.

    Also of strategic significance for Argentina and China was a separate communique that outlined space co-operation. China will build and man a new space tracking and control station on a 200 hectare facility in the southern Argentine province of Neuquen.

    For China this facility provides a vital deep southern hemisphere node for global ground-based tracking and control, which is needed to manage its growing satellite networks, manned space stations, and lunar programme. Argentine sources note that a crucial quid-pro-quo is that Buenos Aires will gain access to strategic information from China's formidable surveillance satellite constellation.

    While uncertainties abound regarding the reality of Sino-Argentine military relations, especially given Argentina's questionable ability to pay for new equipment programmes outside of Chinese concessional loans funded by payments in commodities, ambitions point toward a deepening relationship.

    China is now at least in discussions to sell Argentina new weapon systems for each of its armed services. While 100 or more APCs, up to five corvettes, or 14 new fighters may not significantly alter the balance of power with Argentina's neighbours or in regards to Argentina's ambitions to take the Falkland Islands (Malvinas), this could also mark the beginning for more substantive Chinese military exports.

    This, combined with the prospect for strategic space co-operation, creates a possible shift in the balance of power in Latin America and increase China's military influence in the region. Furthermore, plans to transfer the means for Argentina to become a marketer of Norinco APCs, and potentially low-cost fighter aircraft, could give China its first significant military-commercial "beachhead" in Latin America.

    Reports suggest that the defence elements of the 5 February communique have angered Brazil, which has ambitions to become a regional leader in military technology. Brazil has sought to outflank competitors through co-operative military deals with Argentina, such as FAdeA's production of parts for the new Embraer KC-390.
     
  14. Neo

    Neo Senior Member Senior Member

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    China sells fighter jets (JF-17) to Argentina

    ARGENTINA is to purchase sophisticated Chinese fighter jets able to attack the Falkland Islands as part of a “strategic partnership” with Beijing.

    Argentinian President, Kristina de Kirchner went to China last week to seal the deal

    The move, which further raised tensions in the South Atlantic last night, follows a three-day visit by President Kristina de Kirchner to Beijing last week, in which Argentina secured 15 economic agreements and significant financial investment to bolster its failing economy.

    It comes after a decision by Buenos Aires to abandon talks with Vladimir Putin to secure 12 Sukhoi Su-24 'Fencer" bombers, capable of reaching Port Stanley.

    Last night sources told the Sunday Express that the deal with Russia, revealed by the Sunday Express in September, had stalled after a series of delays and concerns over post-sale maintenance.

    However, that failure will see Argentina now take delivery of 20 of the most advanced fighter jets in the world.

    Mrs Kirchner has constantly caused concern for the Foreign Office with her campaign to generate international political support for the islands to be returned to Argentina.

    Last month the Ministry of Defence revealed that the Rapier air defence system currently based on Mount Pleasant to counter any potential air threat is to be upgraded, with sources adding that the “operational drumbeat” of routine deployments are also being increased.

    China has pledged more than £162billion in investments for Latin America over the next five years, and has indicated that it will write off millions loaned several years ago, allowing nations like Argentina to rebuild their economies.

    Crucially, the financial package includes military equipment to re-generate Argentina’s crippled air force which, over the past 18 months, has attempted to buy aircraft from Israel, Spain and, most recently, Moscow.

    Argentina had been negotiating for Russian aircraft, but in fact the Fencers they were looking at are very outdated if you are looking to hold the Falklands, and they have a very poor record for aftersales service for customers
    Justin Bronk, of the defence think-tank RUSI
    In a "working group" formed by the two countries, Beijing agreed to supply around 20 FC-1/JF-17 "Thunder" fighter jets produced by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation.

    The single-seat, single-engine, fighter has a top speed of Mach 1.8 at altitude of 55,000 ft and combat range of 840 miles, allowing it to comfortably fly to Port Stanley and back from the Tierra del Fuego air base in southern Argentina.

    It will also carry a range of weapons including air-to-air missiles and laser guided bombs.

    The collaboration will see China’s influence in the region soar as Beijing funds the projects such as the Cepernic Kirchner dams, the Belgrano Cargas railway and the Atucha nuclear plant will also generate more than 20,000 jobs.

    A senior RAF source said: “The procurement of Chinese aircraft is worrying; they are modern, fast and very capable.

    However, we have a robust capability in the Falklands and I imagine that de Kirchner is trying to reinforce her military to strengthen her foreign policy at the negotiating table."

    Last night Justin Bronk, of the defence think-tank RUSI, said: “Argentina had been negotiating for Russian aircraft, but in fact the Fencers they were looking at are very outdated if you are looking to hold the Falklands, and they have a very poor record for aftersales service for customers.

    “China’s JF-17 is based on the old Soviet Union’s Mig 21, the backbone to the Soviet air force, so it has excellent pedigree.

    But it is cheaper than what Russia has to offer, brand new, and has a good reputation for being reliable and having an extremely wide armament fit.

    “It is the non-Western equivalent to the Swedish Gripen, which Argentina originally tried to acquire through Brazil before the deal was stopped by Britain because it contained 30 per cent British parts.

    “It would certainly allow Argentina’s air force to fly over Port Stanley, though it’s no match for RAF Typhoons and its pilots don’t have the asymmetrical training that RAF has.

    In addition, we have the Type-45 destroyer which is the most formidable air defence destroyer in the world.

    “This deal would give China the first proper export market for this new fighter jet, which has been developed with Pakistan, and it seems China is willing to offer Argentina very good finance terms.”

    He added: “ There is definitely an aspect of trying to restore Argentinean martial pride, bearing in mind what an enormous issue the ‘Malvinas’ issue remains there.

    For her to be able to say ‘we can hold the islands’ is vital for her.

    “And while she is likely to be replaced by moderates when she steps down in October, it would be a mistake to think that this issue will go away.”

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/558...s-fighter-jets
     
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  15. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Tell us something; how come you never really provided the J-10 in the open market. Maybe the A variant for the initial stage?

    Your production levels of aircraft are quite good and are in line with the western production rates; sometimes even better if seen country-to-country basis.

    Then why are you delaying the jet sales to Pakistan or not even offering J-10 in the open market?

    After all, USA still continues to offer F-16s in the market.

    A lot of people in Asia feel that Las Malvinas belong to Argentina, including us.

    But the thing is, the islanders there vote themselves as British.

    So how would Argentina politically justify even if it can take over?
     
  16. Compersion

    Compersion Senior Member Senior Member

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    i am continuing to read that PRC policy on falklands is against UK ... and overtly it is taking such steps

    will UK be a silent observer . will this be used by PRC to get something in return ??
     
  17. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    A cue we need to take vis a vis the global 'disputed'position of J&K.

    If UK doesn't recognize our state, then we should support Argentina's cause of Las Malvinas.

    Similarly Basque independence for Spain and each of these countries who call our state disputed.

    We have to learn from China how to bargain with the world on our terms.
     
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  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Uk has any power to take on china? Uk cannot do anything internationally without usa's support
     
  19. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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  20. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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  21. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Take out China? :lol:

    That's a good one.

    With what are they going to take them out?


    This??

    Too fat to fight? Barely two-thirds of troops are fit - Home News - UK - The Independent

    European colonial era is over.

    While we have issues with China, let's be realistic.


    NATO being an alliance of different countries cannot even sustain a proper fight in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    What makes you think they'd have the muscle to fight China?

    The Dragon will simply pulverize UK in a straight war if it is a one-on-one contest.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
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