China and Unequal Treaties

Ray

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A "Deep Historical" View of Chinese Expansionism

Kate Marie over at "What's the Rumpus" tipped me off to an interview with Lee Kuan Yew, former President of Singapore, in the current issue of Der Spiegel. Lee speaks with real depth and insight about the future trajectory of Chinese prosperity and power. He is, for the most part, optimistic about the prospect for peace, but he expresses one qualifying reservation:

"Mr. Lee: I don't know whether the next generation will stay on this course. After 15 or 20 years they may feel their muscles are very powerful. We know the mind of the leaders but the mood of the people on the ground is another matter. Because there's no more communist ideology to hold the people together, the ground is now galvanised by Chinese patriotism and nationalism. Look at the anti-Japanese demonstrations."

Like Lee Kuan Yew, many US defense and diplomacy analysts are concerned about the short-term consequences of China's rise. The particular conditions under which any nation will undertake aggression are not easy to enumerate, the raw fact that a nation enters upon a period of newfound power is no clear sign that it will embark upon a predictable program of military expansionism. While it is true that most weapons are made to be used, the concentration of military might in the hands of a particular state provides no clear indication of when, where, or how it will be used. Lee gives a very plausible short-term scenario for Chinese aggression, one impelled by burgeoning nationalism and decline in the unifying ideology of Communism. Though there is some merit to Lee's concerns, I would argue that a "deep historical" perspective makes Chinese aggression a less pressing long-term concern for global peace and stability than internicine strife within China itself.

The question of Chinese "expansionism" is complicated by the fact that the scope of Chinese culture has been expanding throughout recorded history in a clearly observable progress. Chroniclers in the time of Confucius described the people of Wu as foreign barbarians who tatooed their bodies and spoke a tongue unintelligible to "civilized" people. Wu then encompassed the location of Shanghai, modern China's largest metropolis. By the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.E.-220 C.E.) the Yangtze River delta had become fully integrated into the Sinic world, but even then the region that now holds Canton and Hong Kong sat beyond the civilized pale. That region only became integrated into the Chinese empire during the Tang Dynasty (618-907 C.E.), which is why southern Cantonese speakers refer to themselves as "Tang people" while northern Mandarin speakers denote ethnic Chinese as "Han people."

The steady outward expansion of Chinese culture and polity was sometimes violent, but historical evidence shows that this process was as often as not engendered by peaceful trade, migration, and conversion as by conquest. This truth is underscored by the fact that many aspects of Chinese culture expanded beyond the scope of Chinese imperial political control. Vietnam and Korea adopted Chinese script, religion, and political forms wholesale (the kingdoms of Korea and Vietnam were virtual simulacra of the Chinese imperial government) even as they violently resisted total absorption into the administrative matrix of successive Chinese empires. Despite China's immense prestige and powers of cultural suasion, by the seventh or eighth century C.E. Chinese political power had reached its greatest natural extent at its eastern and southern frontiers.

The current boundaries of the People's Republic of China embody this deep-historical pattern. PRC territory extends to limits established by the last imperial dynasty, the Qing. The Qing rulers were able, by virtue of being an Inner Asian people with allies among the steppe tribes, to extend the frontiers of imperial power further west and north than any prior Chinese dynasty had accomplished, encompassing Tibet, East Turkestan and Mongolia (regions that native Chinese dynasties had never subdued). Even with such military successes in hand, the Qing were never able to expand Beijing's power beyond the frontiers that seperated its imperial domain from the dynastic realms of Vietnam and Korea, otherwise the boundaries of the PRC might be quite different today.

Though certain "core" heartlands always rested securely within the orbit of Chinese imperial power, the outer scope of imperial political control tended to expand and contract (sometimes splintering between two or more competing dynastic centers) over the long term. The Qing was an expansionary era in Chinese history, though even that expansion was unable to transgress certain natural limits. By Qing terms the current era is already a "contractionary" one- the independent Republic of Mongolia was the vassalage of Outer Mongolia during Qing times. Moving forward, the prospects for further expansion of Beijing's military sway are dubious. The PRC does not possess the cultural resources that helped keep Tibet and Mongolia compliant within Qing suzerainity, and emergent nationalism among East Turkestan's Uighur minority make the continued tight integration of that region into PRC sovereignty unpredictable at best. With the real difficulties it faces in consolidating and maintaining the expanded territorial parameters of the Qing, it is difficult to see how the PRC can hope to accomplish what the Qing did not in regions like Vietnam or Korea.

Moreover, the internal integrity of the Chinese polity has always been vulnerable to powerful centripetal forces. Violent regional schisms plagued every dynasty, like the Taiping Rebellion of 1850-1864 which brought China's wealthiest southern commercial district under the sway of a crypto-Christian monarchy and took as many as 20 million lives. The hegemonic status of nation-state thinking lulls analysts and observers into accepting China's sovereign unity as a given, but this is far from an axiomatic truth. The same forces that tore at the fabric of imperial unity still pulse beneath the surface of the PRC's nationalistic facade. In the final analysis the greatest deterrent to Chinese expansionism is not US military power but the intrinsic fragility of China's internal political coherence. Beijing must work hard and constantly to maintain control over the regions currently "securely" within its recognized domain. Any attempt to expand the scope of its control outward might jeapordize that carefully cultivated homeostasis.

The exception that proves this rule is Taiwan. Pronouncements on Taiwan (like the recently-passed anti-secession law) are often held up as an example of China's aggressive tendencies. It is precisely because Beijing's reins of control are so tenuous, however, that it cannot afford to give up any degree of sovereignty over any square-foot of territory. Even though Beijing's claims over Taiwan are purely symbolic, the dissolution of those claims might precipitate a "stampede toward the exits" upon the part of regions that chafe under Beijing's control. Breakaways might not be limited to "frontier" areas like Tibet and Mongolia, moreover, but might include wealthy southern regions like Guangdong and Shanghai who would happily keep tax revenues that flow northward under the status quo.

If historical events like the Taiping Rebellion provide any gauge, a breakup of Chinese sovereignty would not be a kind or happy affair. Any significant challenge to Chinese sovereign unity would undoubtedly portend a terrible civil war. Such an event would not only create great misery for a world ever more economically interdependent, in an age of nuclear weaponry it would almost certainly have tragic and direct human consequences that spread far beyond China's borders.

Madman of Chu: A "Deep Historical" View of Chinese Expansionism
 

s002wjh

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Cut the crap & tell me why China claims over Arunachal Pradesh which is recognized state of India?

Why the hell PRC nutheads have problem with Indian Defence Minister visiting his own state?

PRC & its worshippers are bunch of deluded losers who daydream their wonderland.
and now you are the one get angry etc etc, and start writing bias stuff. of course you are indian you gonna said stuff favor your country. i don't know too much about india/china border dispute, so i'm not gonna say its belong to china or india. and no china is not expansionist compare to britian empire or japan. through all its history it has influence over other countries, but never conquer korea, vietnam, etc etc. all stuff currently are consider dispute between its neighbor, and its far different from expansion. until china invade vietnam, or korea or others etc its not consider expansionism.


both yuan and qing are consider ethnic groups. when look at tang, song, ming, emperor pretty much keep it to it self. during ming dynasty zhang he exploration was even cancel by the emperor.
 

Ray

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We are not discussing other nations and their imperialism.

We are merely talking about the pious Govt of China who has so much to do with 'peaceful coexistence', 'panch sheel', 'not interfere with the domestic affairs of another country' and so on and so forth.

Why then does China go on an expansionist mission throughout its history?

Who did the Southern expansion?

Mongolia?

Tibet?

Xinjaing?
 

Ray

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s002wjh

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well every country on this planet has wars. china with its long history has alot wars.
mongolia is not part of current china.
both tibet and xinjing were either conquire or been a puppet state through out chinese history. but ccp did invade these area because they belief its part of their terroritory due to historical reference, it was also claim by KMT/ROC (wrong or not thats just perspective from PRC and ROC). but china does not claim vietnam/korea as part of china, and they didn't not invade and occupied it. china has no intention to expand its terroritory other than solve the disputed area, which is claim since establish of PRC. it has no intention to invade burma/nepal or other minor countries in that region and occupy it. an expansion country will done the opposite. an expansion country will invade/occupied burman/nepal or other minor countries, china has no intention to do so. china does expan its influence via soft power.

China's Rise: Inward-Looking Or Expansionist? : NPR
If you're looking for lessons from history about the direction China might take in the future, an ominous place to come is to a beautiful, ancient stone bridge lined with stone lions on Beijing's outskirts. It's now a minor tourist attraction, but it was here in 1937 that a small skirmish led to the full-scale invasion of a weakened China by a resurgent Japan.

A TV documentary narrated in serious tones plays inside the museum that stands near the bridge. It reminds visitors that as Japan modernized and industrialized, it sought to expand, and then invaded all of Asia. But suggest to ordinary Chinese people here that the pattern of modernization and industrialization in China could lead to something similar, and you will be met with shocked faces.

Zhang Wuming, 87, remembers the Japanese occupation of China. But he says China will never bully anyone when it becomes strong, and it will never become like Japan. His younger sister Zhang Ailing agrees, and can't resist a dig at Japan itself.

Don't worry about China, she says, but make sure you write about how many Chinese people the Japanese killed. That's why we need to be strong, she adds, because otherwise we'll be bullied and occupied again.

From inside China, it can often seem that modern Chinese power is more aimed at erasing a painful past than at writing a dominant future. The problem is that with a growing military and with increasingly assertive foreign and commercial policies, China doesn't always look that way from outside. But there is one topic where the peace-loving Chinese seem worryingly militaristic: Taiwan.

The people of Taiwan are Chinese people, says Zhang. And Taiwan is Chinese territory forever, says his sister. China wants to reunify peacefully, she continues, but won't give up the right of force. Not surprisingly, that causes concern across the Taiwan Straits among politicians, academics and heavy-metal rock bands alike.

China A Threat To Taiwan?

Taiwan being a democracy, people can say or sing what they like, and the band Shanling has even put its anger toward mainland China into a song supporting Taiwan's independence. It's not just the headbangers who are wary of China.

"Many people in Taiwan see China as a threat to Taiwan," says Bi-khim Hsiao, spokeswoman of the opposition Democratic Progressive Party.

She says the threats from China are no longer just military.

"Nowadays they are diversifying their tactics toward Taiwan to use economic leverage," she said.

This includes economic leverage to influence Taiwanese businesses and how they make their political donations, she said.

"Even though our local law forbids Chinese ownership of Taiwan media," she said, "the Chinese ... indirectly — through acquisition of other foreign companies and media outlets — ... have an influence on public opinion in Taiwan."


That is not just happening in Taiwan. China's financial largesse is being felt across Asia as the Chinese use their formidable new wealth to win themselves friends. Many countries in the region are engaging with China, but as China builds up a blue-water navy, and bolsters its commercial penetration of the developing world, most of those countries are continuing to strengthen their links with the U.S. as well, just in case.

Problems At Home

As China spreads its influence abroad, though, there are plenty of problems still at home.

Liu Shuzhen, 80, sits weeping as she explains in an interview what happened one night six years ago at her home in Shanghai: In 2005, she says, dozens of men, including police and officials, smashed down her door and dragged her outside so they could demolish her house to make way for the Shanghai World Expo. Her daughter was detained trying to come to this interview. Her daughter's friend has come instead.

Fan Guijuan says she also had her house demolished to make way for the expo, but now she travels regularly to the capital, Beijing, to protest. Amid the dazzling skyscrapers of modern China, there are thousands upon thousands of dissatisfied, disenfranchised people like her, the flotsam and jetsam on China's rising tide of prosperity. Whenever there is a sensitive political meeting or visit, these protesters are detained at home or in a cheap hotel for anything up to 40 days, and watched around the clock by large teams of guards, to prevent them from making trouble.

China announced this year that its public security budget at home has surpassed the country's military budget for the first time. Asked about China's future, Fan gives a wry smile.

Foreigners don't need to worry about an expansionist China abroad, she says. This government has its hands full dealing with its own people, she adds.

They are the words of a woman pushed to the limit, but they represent a broader truth — that amid all the extraordinary changes in China in recent years, there is one very big challenge left.

"The main challenge that China faces ahead will be in politics," says William Kirby, professor of history at Harvard University. "No political party stays in power forever.

"And a great challenge for leaders of ... [China] is how does one begin this process of reform without losing control? And I fear right now that insofar as one can tell is you have a government that knows how to do lots of things extraordinarily well, but in this area, it seems barren of ideas."

But even if it manages to turn that barrenness into a fertile field of political ideas, it still isn't clear whether China will be a threat or whether it will be able to continue its rise. What is clear is that those questions are likely to be decided by what happens inside China itself. What is also clear is that China's next 30 years can't be like the past 30 — economically because the natural environment cannot sustain it, or politically because the human environment can probably not sustain it, either.
Is China expansionist? « The Toynbee convector
 

nrj

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and now you are the one get angry etc etc, and start writing bias stuff. of course you are indian you gonna said stuff favor your country. i don't know too much about india/china border dispute, so i'm not gonna say its belong to china or india. and no china is not expansionist compare to britian empire or japan. through all its history it has influence over other countries, but never conquer korea, vietnam, etc etc. all stuff currently are consider dispute between its neighbor, and its far different from expansion. until china invade vietnam, or korea or others etc its not consider expansionism.


both yuan and qing are consider ethnic groups. when look at tang, song, ming, emperor pretty much keep it to it self. during ming dynasty zhang he exploration was even cancel by the emperor.
What bias stuff?

And if you don't know about India/China border dispute especially Arunachal, then zip it !
 

panduranghari

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Peking Reaches Out: A Study of Chinese Expansionism
From the same pdf;

p According to Unen, the policy of China's rulers is becoming increasingly hypocritical.
It is based on territorial claims and designs to annex neighbouring countries. To justify
their aggressive course, the Maoists resort to the distorting of ancient history. In recent
years, the PRC has organised numerous exhibitions and published many copies of books
and booklets which, in the final analysis, assert that China has suffered great territorial
losses.
p The newspaper, which is published by the Central Committee of the Mongolian
People's Revolutionary Party, goes on to say that this strategy of Peking is aimed at
achieving world domination, including the incorporation ofi the Mongolian People's
Republic into China. A Short History of the Aggression by Tsarist Russia in China by a
certain Shi Da, published two years ago, is especially remarkable. The book falsifies
historical facts to suit the greedy territorial claims of China's rulers to the Soviet Union
and the MPR. The Maoists do not stop at denying the traditions of Mongolian national
statehood, and malign the heroic record of the struggle by the Mongolian people for
freedom and independence against foreign invaders.
The same thing happening in Pakistan. Falsify history and use it as a tool to brainwash people.


p China's rulers have long had their eyes on Vietnam, Laos, Kampuchea, Thailand,
Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and the Philippines. The first colonies of Chinese
settlers appeared in Southeast Asia in the 13th century. Their numbers gradually
increased, and the trend has finally resulted in Chinese domination of the economic life
of the nations of the region. Observers and economists believe that the influence the Hoa
people wield with the economies of Southeast Asia is so great that it would take them
only a few days to wreak havoc in the economies of Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and
the Philippines.
p One should remember that the number of the Chinese living outside China today is 21
million, and that most of them live in Asia. It would be logical to suppose that Peking has
long considered the possible political and economic advantages offered by the powerful
positions held by the Hoa people in the economies of Asian countries. China understands
perfectly well that the role of the overseas Chinese in the economic structure of
politically independent countries spells out domination over the latter. The Hoa people
themselves are increasingly turning to Peking for support in case of difficulties, and the
PRC acts as their patron—for a price, of course.
168
p The current Peking leadership is paying more and more attention to the Hoa people,
trying to use them as an instrument of pressure on the governments of Asian countries—
in other words, to gain direct advantages for its global foreign policy which is aimed at domination and contains elements of expansionism. To this end, an organisational plan is
being drawn up to unite the Hoa people in the countries where they hold influential
positions. Actually, the idea of "great-power chauvinism" emerged during the Chiang
Kaishek era, but at that time it was neutralised by Japanese and western imperialism and
could not be implanted in the "overseas Chinese". Today the PRC has all the necessary
means for carrying out this policy.
p The developments in Vietnam inevitably lead to the uneasy conclusion that the spread
of Peking's influence and domination over South and Southeast Asia has emerged as one
of its major foreign policy goals. The foreign press has recently reported on interference
by the PRC in the internal affairs of a number of nations, on Peking's support of
extremist anti-government elements in some countries, and on its economic
machinations. The leaders of many Asian countries thought that the establishment of
diplomatic relations with Peking would protect them from Chinese interference, but these
hopes have failed. On the contrary, diplomatic relations have made it easier for Peking to
turn its embassies into coordinating headquarters for its old policies. This no doubt
explains why Indonesia is in no hurry to "unfreeze" its diplomatic relations with the PRC.
p We have recently witnessed signs of Peking's greater influence on the internal affairs of
Southeast Asian countries. Merdeka indicates that the PRC selected Kampuchea as its
target, as it was ruled by a group of people indoctrinated in the spirit of "Mao's
thoughts". The Maoist slogan of destroying urban culture and resettling people in villages
was issued in this small country. The western press estimates that of the eight million
Kampucheans, at least one million people were executed by the followers of Mao
Zedong's ideas. [168"¢1 What was China's reaction to this? Peking hailed and fully
supported the Pol Pot-Ieng Sary regime, proclaiming the "fraternal friendship" between
the PRC 169 and Kampuchea. One can easily deduce that China has a similar fate in
mind for other Asian peoples.

p Mao Zedong once said that if "half the people in the world" were destroyed, this would
not "matter at all", that "there is no cause for fear" if only one-third of the world
population were to survive. The newspaper stresses that perhaps these words reveal true
aims of Peking's drive to absorb neighbouring territories. This makes "Mao's thoughts"
resemble Hitler's doctrines.
 
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panduranghari

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result of war, boarder dispute, alot country have that. expansionism is someone like british empire, japan etc etc, when clearly the terroritory is NOT part of their terroritory, people live there have no association with japanese what so ever, focibily occupied the place. you could argue china invasion of tibet was expansionism in the 50s. but i wouldn't call china as expansionism just yet, unless they invade and occupy some other countries . not ever border dispute, war on foreign land can be labelled as expansionist.

through out the history of china, only yuan dynasty can be said was expansionist. most dynasty that was control by han stay in china, didn't even bother to occupied korea, they even build a wall to keep mongol away from interior china. thats not how expansionist work
Did you even read the link that was posted? You guys should seriously do some introspection. Or does proper reading interfere with your ability to post on forums the pro-Chinese message your paymaster pays you to do? I really feel you guys are here just to troll and propagate the CCP's policy.
 

panduranghari

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Sheep in Wolves' Clothing? The Book the Han Nationalists Love to Loath

"The publication of this book and its praise by famous personalities is actually preparing public opinion for the carrying out of racial genocide against the Han."

–Zhao Fengnian (赵丰年) writing on Hanwang 汉网, 17 Dec 2008


The China Beat � Sheep in Wolves' Clothing? The Book the Han Nationalists Love to Loath
The more I read about Han Chinese, the more this feels like Adolf Hitler Part Deux and the 1000 year Reich.
 

GromHellscream

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So what, I don't think he is wrong here. Do you want to count on the number of each country's members here, then we give up.
 

panduranghari

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So what, I don't think he is wrong here. Do you want to count on the number of each country's members here, then we give up.
No. I wish you would read the links provided and give them some thought before using blanket statements stating its wrong, its BS, its falsified. Now please go back and read the links and tell us what you think.
 

no smoking

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No. I wish you would read the links provided and give them some thought before using blanket statements stating its wrong, its BS, its falsified. Now please go back and read the links and tell us what you think.
Well, it seems that you have problem to understand chinese members here.

Since you have no problem that our indian member to say that China is a land grabbor, then you should have no problem on the opinion expressed by Chinese which is based on the same logical applied by indians.

If you don't want to hear this kind of quarrel, fine. Warn me and your countryman TOGETHER. Otherwise, you can just put a note to all the chinese member: don't bother to bring anything I don't want to hear.
 

mylegend

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What is a hero? Chen have been working to fight to injustice and a outdated policy. For those who face injustice and forced abortion, Chen is a hero. However, Chen is not the 伟光正 as the type of hero Redragon define as the only way a man can be a hero. However, as a ordinary man that stand up against a powerful government and he got jailed for the justice he pursue, isn't that is a type of courage?

Hero does not need to a martyr. When one stand up against anything for the interest of public and knowingly that he/she will be punished, he/she is a hero. After all, Chen is only a ordinary man , who was born in a poor family and lose vision at very young age He got little education but self-taught himself to be a lawyer. For a man with such background to stand up for something bigger, he is indeed a hero.
 
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panduranghari

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Well, it seems that you have problem to understand chinese members here.

Since you have no problem that our indian member to say that China is a land grabbor, then you should have no problem on the opinion expressed by Chinese which is based on the same logical applied by indians.

If you don't want to hear this kind of quarrel, fine. Warn me and your countryman TOGETHER. Otherwise, you can just put a note to all the chinese member: don't bother to bring anything I don't want to hear.
Why do you post on this forum? Tell me honestly, you like to derail conversations. You never post anything which interests people. You just attack people and become personal. Why?
 

ice berg

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Maybe you should look at your own post. And please let others be the judge of whether his posts are interesting or not.

Get back to topic please.
 

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