China and India :The Contest of the century

badguy2000

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"Urban villages" in CHina appear due to the reason different from "Shanty down". "Urban villages" once were real villages in suburbs. After cities expanded ,the village become backward islands surrounded by newly-developed modern urban areas.


Most houses in "urban villages" were built in 1980s-2000,so they should be newer than "shanty towns". However, those housed were built by villagers themselves, so houses and avenue were planned poorly. Now, "Urban village s" now become the compact communities where low-income Chinese such as peasants workers and university graduates live in .

In China, "urban villages" are also on the list of "to be demolished"

one india netizens posted one pictures of the house where the 'average' Indian middle class lives in . I also find it very interesting that it is quite like typical "urban village" in CHina

The 'average' Indian middle class lives in buildings like these( according to the pictures showed by one india netizen)


one typical "urban village" in CHina
 
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Rage

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guy,maybe the "slums in CHina' you refered to here should be the " Shanty town " or "urban village" in CHina.

In china, those "shanty town" or "urban village" mostely are rented for low-income Chinese such as peasants workers and univeristy graduates.

Frankly speaking, those "shanty town" or "urban village" are crappy,but they are still more better than the houses where most India "mid class" live in,if most india mid-class live in the houses like the following picture showed by one indian netizen.


The 'average' Indian middle class lives in buildings like these


And the 'lower middle class' lives in buildings (chawls) like these:
I can show you pictures of Chinese "urban slums" or "shanty towns" still in existence, that would boggle your mind.

Don't make me.

And no, they don't look better than what the lowest of India's middle class live in.


The 'upper' middle-class in India lives in housing like these:











The shacks in the foreground of that second picture in your post were not intended to be included in what represented India's middle middle-class housing.

Don't be ecstatic about what you see on the outside. Indian homes, generally, are far better appointed on the inside than from what the outside would suggest.

My best friends growing up in Hind, a muslim family, owned two shanty blocks in a slum down the road, that each had an air conditioner, a refrigerator and an electric water-heater.

In addition, you've misquoted me. I said:

The 'average' Indian middle class lives in buildings like these:



And the 'lower' middle-class lives in buildings like these:

 
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Rage

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And you've caught the bull by the tail. These are only intended to represent what the 'urban' middle class lives like. Then you have the rural 'middle class' that lives in buildings like these:







Those last ones are of Portuguese-style villas in Goa, which most people in Goa live in.

In addition, middle-class buildings in India are hardly 'typical':











These are also middle-class apartment blocks in Mumbai.




This is perhaps the best juxtaposition of the old with the new, the old fast disappearing because of a recent ruling by the High Court that allows all buildings built before 1940 to be demolished and developed carte blanche.


When I posted those other pictures of 'upper' middle class housing in Mumbai (ones that you've completely left out of your post here), I never intended them to be 'exclusive'. My godd@mn vegetable vendor has a 2-bedroom 1200 sq. ft. apartment in Nala Sopara, bought at a time when housing prices in Navi Mumbai were still R.7000 a sq. ft.
 

badguy2000

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And you've caught the bull by the tail. These are only intended to represent what the 'urban' middle class lives like. Then you have the rural 'middle class' that lives in buildings like these:

This is perhaps the best juxtaposition of the old with the new, the old fast disappearing because of a recent ruling by the High Court that allows all buildings built before 1940 to be demolished and developed carte blanche.


When I posted those other pictures of 'upper' middle class housing in Mumbai (ones that you've completely left out of your post here), I never intended them to be 'exclusive'. My godd@mn vegetable vendor has a 2-bedroom 1200 sq. ft. apartment in Nala Sopara, bought at a time when housing prices in Navi Mumbai were still R.7000 a sq. ft.
guy , it is not necessary to reopen a "mine is bigger than you" game.

if you want, we can ducuss people's life quality in the folllowing post..which is speical for it.
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?8663-What-is-Mid-Class-in-your-country-!/page2
 
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Rage

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A.V.

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ok posts containing direct words against a member is edited hope better phrases follow
we do not encourage personal attacks and since both of you are old respected members noting to explain more
 

ajtr

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China and India:Contest of the century

As China and India rise in tandem, their relationship will shape world politics. Shame they do not get on better


A HUNDRED years ago it was perhaps already possible to discern the rising powers whose interaction and competition would shape the 20th century. The sun that shone on the British empire had passed midday. Vigorous new forces were flexing their muscles on the global stage, notably America, Japan and Germany. Their emergence brought undreamed-of prosperity; but also carnage on a scale hitherto unimaginable.

Now digest the main historical event of this week: China has officially become the world's second-biggest economy, overtaking Japan. In the West this has prompted concerns about China overtaking the United States sooner than previously thought. But stand back a little farther, apply a more Asian perspective, and China's longer-term contest is with that other recovering economic behemoth: India. These two Asian giants, which until 1800 used to make up half the world economy, are not, like Japan and Germany, mere nation states. In terms of size and population, each is a continent—and for all the glittering growth rates, a poor one.


Not destiny, but still pretty important

This is uncharted territory that should be seen in terms of decades, not years. Demography is not destiny. Nor for that matter are long-range economic forecasts from investment banks. Two decades ago Japan was seen as the main rival to America. Countries as huge and complicated as China can underachieve or collapse under their own contradictions. In the short term its other foreign relationships may matter more, even in Asia: there may, for instance, be a greater risk of conflict between rising China and an ageing but still powerful Japan. Western powers still wield considerable influence.

So caveats abound. Yet as the years roll forward, the chances are that it will increasingly come down once again to the two Asian giants facing each other over a disputed border (see article). How China and India manage their own relationship will determine whether similar mistakes to those that scarred the 20th century disfigure this one.

Neither is exactly comfortable in its skin. China's leaders like to portray Western hype about their country's rise as a conspiracy—a pretext either to offload expensive global burdens onto the Middle Kingdom or to encircle it. Witness America's alliances with Japan and South Korea, its legal obligation to help Taiwan defend itself and its burgeoning friendships with China's rivals, notably India but also now Vietnam.

This paranoia is overdone. Why shouldn't more be asked from a place that, as well as being the world's most-populous country, is already its biggest exporter, its biggest car market, its biggest carbon-emitter and its biggest consumer of energy (a rank China itself, typically, contests)? As for changing the balance of power, the People's Liberation Army's steady upgrading of its technological capacity, its building of a blue-water navy and its fast-developing skills in outer space and cyberspace do not yet threaten American supremacy, despite alarm expressed this week about the opacity of the PLA's plans in a Pentagon report. But China's military advances do unnerve neighbours and regional rivals. Recent weeks have seen China fall out with South Korea (as well as the West) over how to respond to the sinking in March, apparently by a North Korean torpedo, of a South Korean navy ship. And the Beijing regime has been at odds with South-East Asian countries over its greedy claim to almost all of the South China Sea.

India, too, is unnerved. Its humiliation at Chinese hands in a brief war nearly 50 years ago still rankles. A tradition of strategic mistrust of China is deeply ingrained. India sees China as working to undermine it at every level: by pre-empting it in securing supplies of the energy both must import; through manoeuvres to block a permanent seat for India on the United Nations Security Council; and, above all, through friendships with its smaller South Asian neighbours, notably Pakistan. India also notes that China, after decades of setting their border quarrels to one side in the interests of the broader relationship, has in recent years hardened its position on the disputes in Tibet and Kashmir that in 1962 led to war. This unease has pushed India strategically closer to America—most notably in a controversial deal on nuclear co-operation.

Autocrats in Beijing are contemptuous of India for its messy, indecisive democracy. But they must see it as a serious long-term rival—especially if it continues to tilt towards America. As recently as the early 1990s, India was as rich, in terms of national income per head. China then hurtled so far ahead that it seemed India could never catch up. But India's long-term prospects now look stronger. While China is about to see its working-age population shrink (see article), India is enjoying the sort of bulge in manpower which brought sustained booms elsewhere in Asia. It is no longer inconceivable that its growth could outpace China's for a considerable time. It has the advantage of democracy—at least as a pressure valve for discontent. And India's army is, in numbers, second only to China's and America's: it has 100,000 soldiers in disputed Arunachal Pradesh (twice as many as America will soon have in Iraq). And because India does not threaten the West, it has powerful friends both on its own merits and as a counterweight to China.

A settlement in time

The prospect of renewed war between India and China is, for now, something that disturbs the sleep only of virulent nationalists in the Chinese press and retired colonels in Indian think-tanks. Optimists prefer to hail the $60 billion in trade the two are expected to do with each other this year (230 times the total in 1990). But the 20th century taught the world that blatantly foreseeable conflicts of interest can become increasingly foreseeable wars with unforeseeably dreadful consequences. Relying on prosperity and more democracy in China to sort things out thus seems unwise. Two things need to be done.

First, the slow progress towards a border settlement needs to resume. The main onus here is on China. It has the territory it really wants and has maintained its claim to Arunachal Pradesh only as a bargaining chip. It has, after all, solved intractable boundary quarrels with Russia, Mongolia, Myanmar and Vietnam. Surely it cannot be so difficult to treat with India?

That points to a second, deeper need, one that it took Europe two world wars to come close to solving: emerging Asia's lack of serious institutions to bolster such deals. A regional forum run by the Association of South-East Asian Nations is rendered toothless by China's aversion to multilateral diplomacy. Like any bully, it prefers to pick off its antagonists one by one. It would be better if China and India—and Japan—could start building regional forums to channel their inevitable rivalries into collaboration and healthy competition.

Globally, the rules-based system that the West set up in the second half of the 20th century brought huge benefits to emerging powers. But it reflects an out-of-date world order, not the current global balance, let alone a future one. China and India should be playing a bigger role in shaping the rules that will govern the 21st century. That requires concessions from the West. But it also requires commitment to a rules-based international order from China and India. A serious effort to solve their own disagreements is a good place to start.
 

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'Unease in China over emerging India'


NEW DELHI: A Pentagon report has said that China was concerned about strategic ramifications of India's rising economic, political, and military clout.

"To improve regional deterrence, the PLA has replaced older liquid-fuelled , nuclear capable CSS-3 intermediate-range ballistic missiles with more advanced and survivable solid-fuelled CSS-5 MRBMs and may be developing contingency plans to move airborne troops into the region," the report said.

The report also noted that China was investing heavily in road development along the Sino-Indian border to facilitate economic development in western China. "Improved roads would also support PLA border defence operations." Despite increased political and economic relations over the years between China and India, tensions remain along the border, most notably over Arunachal Pradesh and the Askai Chin region. It be recalled that China had tried to block a $2.9 billion loan to India from the Asian Development Bank, claiming part of the loan would have been used for water projects in Arunachal Pradesh. "This represented the first time China sought to influence this dispute," the Pentagon report said.

Turning to China's cyberwarfare capabilities , the report noted that "in March 2009, Canadian researchers uncovered an electronic spy network, apparently based mainly in China, which had reportedly infiltrated Indian and other nations' government offices around the world. More than 1,300 computers in 103 countries were identified."
 

Ray

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I presume Inida is equally concerned not only at China's infrastructure improvement, but also her hegemonic exploits around the periphery of South and SE Asia including the seas and oceans.
 

ashdoc

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india is no contest to china...........it is overshadowed by pakistan anyway...........and unlike china ,which with its 93 percent han majority and relatively homogeneous society does not have to manage too many internal divisions ,india is weighed down by its internal conflicts ..........and india does not have the ruthlessness to either smash its internal conflicts ( like china does ) ,nor has it the assertiveness to stamp its authority on the international arena effectively.........its timid response to the mumbai terror attacks proved that..........obama has given up india to the chinese sphere of influence anyway........
 

samarsingh

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it is articles like these coming out of British press we should be wary off. while it is true that we should do everything that is required to advance our interests and should be prepared for any eventualities, there is no point in having any "overt" contest with China. Cooperation and Competition, not confrontation should be the idea behind any India-China talk. The west fears both "the tiger" and "the dragon", the easiest way it can deal with both is somehow getting them to have a go at each other. same old divide and rule stuff
 

tarunraju

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Contest of the Century is US-China. Not so much China-India. If China can't aspire to compete with the US on every front (like India aspires to compete with China on every front), then it cannot sustain its growth. At some point it will stall and probably retard. For this reason, it shouldn't be alarmed with India's growth.

The Western media will inevitably try to portray India-China competition as a belligerence, something that's overly biased and alarmist, almost to incite an overt conflict between India and China. They don't want China competing with the US the way USSR did (in realpolitik), because that's probably one tussle the West will lose.

India and China should just maintain peace, and use status-quo on any disputes. We have bigger fish to fry.
 
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Param

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india is no contest to china...........it is overshadowed by pakistan anyway...........and unlike china ,which with its 93 percent han majority and relatively homogeneous society does not have to manage too many internal divisions ,india is weighed down by its internal conflicts ..........and india does not have the ruthlessness to either smash its internal conflicts ( like china does ) ,nor has it the assertiveness to stamp its authority on the international arena effectively.........its timid response to the mumbai terror attacks proved that..........obama has given up india to the chinese sphere of influence anyway........
Oveshadowed by Pakistan ? That country is a failed state that would have disappeared from the world map if not for their China gifted Nuke arsenal.
So what if India is not as homogenous as China ? The conflicts are mostly happening in a few states that anyway do not contribute much to Indias economic growth. Who cares about what Ombaba thinks ? India's growth does not depend on the attitude of some unpopular US leader who is never coming back to power.
 

Tshering22

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Oveshadowed by Pakistan ? That country is a failed state that would have disappeared from the world map if not for their China gifted Nuke arsenal.
So what if India is not as homogenous as China ? The conflicts are mostly happening in a few states that anyway do not contribute much to Indias economic growth. Who cares about what Ombaba thinks ? India's growth does not depend on the attitude of some unpopular US leader who is never coming back to power.
HAHAHA! Trust me dude, don't take it seriously. I've come to this forum after seeing a lot of that on the if-you-call-that-a-forum.

Though, I must agree that the India-China contest would be in a TOTALLY different fashion than what USSR-US contest was.
 

Tshering22

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india is no contest to china...........it is overshadowed by pakistan anyway...........and unlike china ,which with its 93 percent han majority and relatively homogeneous society does not have to manage too many internal divisions ,india is weighed down by its internal conflicts ..........and india does not have the ruthlessness to either smash its internal conflicts ( like china does ) ,nor has it the assertiveness to stamp its authority on the international arena effectively.........its timid response to the mumbai terror attacks proved that..........obama has given up india to the chinese sphere of influence anyway........
Conflicts:

1) Kashmiri Pakistan-sponsored terrorists
2) Naxalites
3) ULFA

How many do these look to you?:emot158:

Overshadowed? In what way? Here I will give you some options:

a) Politically
b) Economically
c) Militarily
d) Culturally
e) Science and Technology
f) Education
g) Self-Reliance
h) Socially
i) Internationally
j) intra-nationally

Please elaborate your point with sources. I agree we're way behind China in many areas and we need to catch up. But you!? Please!
 

ashdoc

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Conflicts:

1) Kashmiri Pakistan-sponsored terrorists
2) Naxalites
3) ULFA

How many do these look to you?:emot158:

Overshadowed? In what way? Here I will give you some options:

a) Politically
b) Economically
c) Militarily
d) Culturally
e) Science and Technology
f) Education
g) Self-Reliance
h) Socially
i) Internationally
j) intra-nationally

Please elaborate your point with sources. I agree we're way behind China in many areas and we need to catch up. But you!? Please!
It is not only overshadowed , but downright humiliated by the way pakistan ,a smaller nation sends terrorists regularly to mount attacks in india in a fashion that reminds me of mahmud of ghazni's raids on india centuries ago ,and we are unable to do anything about it............We dont even have the guts to aid the sindhi or baluchistan independence movements ,while pak aids all ' freedom movements ' in india ...........
 

civfanatic

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We dont even have the guts to aid the sindhi or baluchistan independence movements ,while pak aids all ' freedom movements ' in india ...........
I'm pretty sure RAW gives plenty of covert support to these movements. The Balochi independece movement was huge in the 80s in Zia's time, and I think it's still pretty big today.

For once, our fellow Pakistani conspiracy theorists may be right.
 

Rage

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india is no contest to china...........it is overshadowed by pakistan anyway...........and unlike china ,which with its 93 percent han majority and relatively homogeneous society does not have to manage too many internal divisions ,india is weighed down by its internal conflicts ..........and india does not have the ruthlessness to either smash its internal conflicts ( like china does ) ,nor has it the assertiveness to stamp its authority on the international arena effectively.........its timid response to the mumbai terror attacks proved that..........obama has given up india to the chinese sphere of influence anyway........
Not true. It is impossible to thwart every person crossing the border, legally or illegally, or otherwise enmeshing themselves within the population in a country of one billion. I'd like to see you try.

You have evidently no clue of the kind of rural-urban unrest, the true nature of the violence in Xinjiang and of other ethnic conflict- including that of the Han-Hui, the Muslim-Hui and the Tibetan-Han dimension, China witnessed in the early 2000's, and still witnesses today. Were you slightly more informed, you would not proclaim abnegation on your nation, in the present circumstances.

The Mumbai terror attacks are history. Since then, Bangladesh has been brought to the fold, Pakistan has been weaned to a whittle and China has raised its head to acknowledge the competition from the south, and even, if we are to believe, to augment their forces along the border.

Nation's policies reflects their power, and India's power is only set to grow. I trust, almost certainly, that you do not dispute that fact.

China is very careful about "stamping out conflicts" and treading around its minorities. A slightly more nuanced view, based on an accurate history of Chinese politics since the reformation, and less on bombastic media hoodlum, will tell you that fact.

You may see India's diversity as less of an asset and more of a problem, but we tend to think of it as an advantage. Were it not for this diversity, India would not have a community that is second only to the Jews in business (the Marwaris), a community that is renowned for its martial calibre (the Sikhs and the Gorkhas), a community renowned for its contribution to the social sphere (the Christians and the Catholics), a community known for its staunch devotion to ideology and religion, and to equal upliftment (the Muslims) and a community renowned for its ability to trade, its emphasis on education, to organize itself in the most terrific chaos and thrive, to philosophize, to accommodate and even now, for its emphasis on social advancement (the Hindus).
 

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Rising dragon, but whither the tiger?

While China may have learnt from history, it will face significant challenges in maintaining its hard-earned economic and military positions

The news last week that China surpassed Japan as the world's second largest economy (after the US) coincided with the annual report the US department of defense presents to the US Congress, on Military and Security Developments Involving the People's Republic of China, 2010. The report highlights China's expanding military prowess and its No. 2 ranking in terms of military expenditure (again after the US). This happenstance reflects the direct correlation between China's growing economic strength and its increasing military might and holds important lessons for many countries, notably India.

Though China outranked Japan as the No. 2 economy a decade ago in purchasing power parity terms, by attaining this new economic ranking— higher gross domestic product (GDP) in absolute terms—China has regained the pre-eminent position it held in the 1820s when it was by far the world's biggest economy and accounted for 30% of global GDP. Despite the formidable size of its economy then, China was outgunned and outmanoeuvred within 20 years by Britain during the Opium Wars of the 1840s primarily on account of the sorry state of its defence preparedness and technological backwardness.

This is one of the lessons that the modern mandarins of Beijing have imbibed; their defence budgets reflect this learning.

While China may have learnt from history, it will face significant challenges in maintaining its hard-earned economic and military positions. On the economic front, China's annual GDP of around $5 trillion is still one-third of the US' $14 trillion. It is well nigh impossible that China will be able to sustain double-digit growth rates in the coming years, especially given the increasing competition for scarcer resources. Besides, any effort to build another $14 trillion economy may be simply unsustainable in ecological and environmental terms. Indeed, the only way that China is likely to attain the top rank is if the US economy were to shrink dramatically, which despite the current recession is not a foregone conclusion.

In the military arena, China has prudently pegged its defence spending at a very affordable annual average of around 1.4% of GDP. While the official Chinese defence budget is pegged at around $80 billion, the US report estimates it to be around $150 billion, but also acknowledges that the burden of the defence budget on the economy is "negligible". Yet even this higher figure dwarfs in comparison with the towering US defence budget of over $650 billion.

Given this vast disparity, Chinese planners have wisely selected three areas for modernization: "informationization", which is understood to be a greater focus on new technologies, particularly related to cyber warfare; missiles and space technology; and extended-range power projection capabilities in the Pacific and Indian oceans and beyond. Though some of these capabilities and the related "anti-access and area-denial strategies" are already in evidence (see Borderline, "Accommodating China's political clout on the global stage", Mint, 27 January), the US report also notes that "China's ability to sustain power at a distance, today, remains limited". This is particularly true in the case of aircraft carriers and extended operations at sea where the US and even India have a clear edge over China.

The three key lessons for India are: First, to sustain its economic growth to surpass China as the No. 2 economy and regain the pre-eminent position it held in the 1500s. Given that India's GDP is just over $1.25 trillion, about one-fourth of China's, this is a daunting challenge.

Second, to ensure a sustainable defence budget (which does not burden the economy) while also being selective of the key areas for military modernization. As long as the economy continues to grow, this should be manageable.

Third, perhaps the most important lesson is to seek to create a cooperative security arrangement, particularly involving China, so that the prospect of war is eliminated. This might prove to be the most ambitious challenge of them all.

W Pal Sidhu is vice-president of programmes at the EastWest Institute, New York. He writes on strategic affairs every fortnight.

Comments are welcome at [email protected]
 

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Cliches of the Century: Ten easy ways to illustrate China vs. India

Cliches of the Century

Ten easy ways to illustrate China vs. India -- and miss the point entirely.




Cringing tiger, hideous dragon: Certain animal stand-ins are well established: America is an eagle, for instance, and Russia is a bear. Poor China and India, however, are each saddled with two mascots, each a handy indicator of whether Western readers are supposed to be terrified of or intrigued by Asia's emerging powers. Is China a cuddly panda or a threatening dragon? What about India -- a wise, slow-moving elephant or a toothsome, ravenous tiger?





Emperor's new clothes: Of course, animals don't work all the time -- it's hard to put Louis Vuitton on a dragon, or a call center headset on a tiger. Enter the human cliches: Mao is always popular, as is the bejeweled young Indian woman.




Tusk, tusk: Hey, it's the elephant and the panda again! Businessweek gets points here for at least not showing a crumbling Taj Mahal. As for The Economist, well, that's just the most adorable threat ever.




Imaginary landscapes: Like Chinese restaurants in search of a name, magazine art directors have trouble resisting the Great Wall. The Economist opts for a Rousseau-esque jungle scene -- but that looks less like an overheating tiger than one that's been the victim of a particularly daring teenage prank.
 
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