China and India should and will be friends

tarunraju

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So, in order to be india's friend, China needs to do following:
giving aska kin to india
give tibet independence
get india's permission for any movement in south asia
Terminate relationship with Pak.

But can I ask: what will india contribute to this relationship?

Hollow words? or making up some rumors like "how Nehru give UNSC seat to China"?
From that list do just the last one (terminate relationship with Pakistan), and China will find itself an ally in India. It need not do anything else in that list.

What India can contribute to that list is:

- better access to a 1.2 billion people market in almost every sector
- potentially strong ally against the west (even in peace)
- the assurance that China has a completely safe neighbourhood
- the strongest link in US' encirclement of China will be broken, putting an irreversible decline to US influence in Asia,
- Taiwan will be yours in no time, Pakistan occupied Kashmir will be ours in no time.
 
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roma

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So, in order to be india's friend, China needs to do following:
giving aska kin to india
give tibet independence
get india's permission for any movement in south asia
Terminate relationship with Pak.

But can I ask: what will india contribute to this relationship?

Hollow words? or making up some rumors like "how Nehru give UNSC seat to China"?
it's a sarcastic post but i'll pen my reply

1. not nec to terminate realtionship wioth pak but admit authorship of pak nuclear program and admit anti-india coalition with pak and make amends for both
2 returning aksai to india would go a great way in symbolic terms - just like you stole your neighbours car , now you return it - well it helps greatly to restore friendship i should think.
3. tibet - its' an issue between china and the international community - not directly wioth india
4. permission for india to move freely -india dont need no permission from no one
5. stop claiming one area after another of indian territory and expanding the claims gradually and stop cheating on the border movements - just play a clean game is what india asks
 

kickok1975

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Interesting topic - cant agree wirth most of your conclusions

1st point - prc supports pak - that alone is a dead end to any kind of positive relationship .- if india were to support taiwan or vietnam overtly think of what prc reaction would be - so it's unequal and other than the politicians who have to play cool no one in india or nri can condone prc supporting pak

1962 war ? - who was it who was disatisfied with the boundary ? it was zhou enlai who was calling for a border change all the time while india was avoiding the topic ? another very unwarranted and unnecessarily agressive move by prc

dalai ? - that's prc who feels embarassed - as far as india goes its a non-issue he is on humanitarian asylum

cultures ? - basically nothing in common - most chinese feel superior to indians and would consider themselves closer to japanese and koreans rather than indian ...and all that aabout family values holds no glue bcos the japs and koreans are much stronger in those matters.

both can work together ? - prc govt sure doesnt think so - they've rebuffed every attempt by india to work together in any possible JV eg cputers as suggested by vajpayee and others.

not enemies ? what do you call it when one country claims 100,000 sq km of your nation ( arunachal) - plus another small state ( himachal ) plus bits and pieces of the border areas - a friend ?? - hardly

bumpy road ahead ? you gotta be kiddin - they are talking about another war around 2012-2015

sorry but indians and nri's better avoid being hypnotised a 2nd time - at best a no war pact could be negotiatied between the 2 countries , but my guess is that it wont be worth the paper it's written on !
At least to you looks like I shouldn't write somthing like this since it not apply to India, but probably apply to Japan and Korea because Chinese think they are superior to Indian. And we are still remain enemy and a war might happen in 3 years. So sorry for wasting your time.
 
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Shaitan

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I would love to see this happen, but IDK! Trust has been completely lost sense 1962.

Nevertheless, nothing better then seeing the Asian Tiger and Dragon cooperating.
 
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Chinese influence in Pakistan is nowhere close to US, when USA wants they will shut China out of Pakistan if it impedes on US interests.
 

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tarunraju tarunraju is offline said:
From that list do just the last one (terminate relationship with Pakistan), and China will find itself an ally in India. It need not do anything else in that list.
Exactly, actually just termination of military support will do :happy_8:
 

Ray

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Pakistan is not paw of China. China never signed any treaty with Pakistan as to defend her or unconditionally support her. Pakistan is an independent country and her people will decide the country's fate.
It is not only the paw, but cat's paw! Cat'spaw means one used unwittingly by another to accomplish his own purposes.

Pakistan is independent and of that there is no doubt. However, it is a tottering country that cannot make up its mind as to what it should be. Should it be a democracy, or military run or fundamentalist run. Right now, it is a khichid or what is known congee of rice and lentils and gooey.

Of course, China will never sign any treaty. It will only embarrass her and her pious platitudes will come to nought! It will do everything that a treaty requires it to do and more and yet act innocent and coy!

China doesn't want to use Pakistan to against India because it's neither realistic nor doable. India is our neighbor sharing 2800 miles of border. India's economy is booming and is a large market for Chinese goods. China imported lots of stuffs including iron ore from India too. China share more common interest with India than differences. I never heard any statement to attack India and get our land back by force even China never accept so called McMahon line. Chinese leader is smart enough to know which is important and which not. Indian people should also be wise enough to judge what's in their best interest.

China will not use Pakistan, but it will fight India to the last Pakistani!

I have explained earlier as to why China never gives a statement.

It is not your land. It has been occupied by you through the same chicanery that you had embarked in Vietnam and Spratley Islands and now you are at it over island with Japan.

It boomeranged and hear the cute and pious statements coming out of Peking trying to placate the ruffled feathers in South East Asia and Japan.

China's game lies exposed of crass expansionism.

Chinese leader wise to heed Deng's 24 Character Strategy - speak no evil, but take the name of expansionist Chinese Emperors and Mao and stab them in the back, and if required chanting prayers and with a benign smile as if doing the country stabbed a favour!!
 

Ray

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I find you're statements preposterous, shameful, cowardly and shortsighted as a fellow Indian. With views like this we as a country can never advance and how shameful it is that you are saying such things when a Chinese person has made a thread for peace and stability. Uttery shameful !

China is our neighbor we both should work together to achieve a greater goal of maintaining Asia so as not to be played like tools from Western countries like US, UK, Germany, France etc. like they have played and destoyed Middle East. Why don't you understand western nations would like nothing more than a fighting weak India and China to advance their own interest. India and China has potential not only in terms of economic but also geographic and millitary position to advance our countries throughout the world. Yes I am against China's stapled visa policy and hold views on our altercations with China on Arunachal Pradesh but we (both countries) should take steps pro-actively to solve our difference by taking positive steps which are mutually beneficial.

If we keep on trying to undermine each other it will only benefit western countries and not us. I hope you have not forgotten the "Divide and Rule" policy of west. The same thing applies here.
Good point.

We should thank the person who started the thread for peace amongst neighbours and that two the two largest populated countries of the world!

We should work in tandem with China.

I would love that. I would love to return to the Principles of Panchsheel, enunciated by Pandit Nehru and the Bandung Conference, which the Chinese so readily acclaimed. I would love to yell lustily 'Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai' and that.

I would love to live in the vision of Pandit Nehru.

But then, I find it difficult to forget the back stab of Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai of 1962 wherein it has become 'Hindi Chini Bye Bye'.

Wars are won and lost and that is not important.

What is important is deceit laced with pious words of China following the Bandung Conference.

China lulled Nehru into a esoteric dream of a world without conflict.

And the result - 1962!!

Nehru never recovered from the shock of having been taken for a ride lulled with humble piety of the Chinese words!

I appreciate your view.

But then, I take solace and comfort in the warning - Once Bitten, Twice Shy!

And in the phrase in Virgil, Book 2 of 19 BC where in allusion to the Trojan Horse, wrote, 'Beware of Greeks bearing gifts'.

Peace I shall always embrace, but not Peace at all Cost bartering of our honour and sovereignty.
 

Ray

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So what would you suggest China to do, Ray? Abandon Pakistan and let India deal with it? It would be wonderful if India could deal with Pakistan with warm hand, forgiveness than cold stone hate. But is it realistic now?

China support Pakistan to support herself. Everyone is worrying Pakistan becomes a terrorist state that no one can control. It's not imaginary it's increasing likely. Afghanistan is already called "Empire's tomb" where two supper powers were struggling. How about another Afghanistan several times bigger? Can India government handle it? Well Indian probably already treats Pakistan as terrorist state. Not so to China. To us Pakistan has legitimate government and we see friendship and kindness among many people. From them we just see normal human being like rest of us around the world. They don't want war; they just want to live in peace; most of them don't enjoy killing Indian either. Why not help them but instead drive them into the corner?

China is not policemen of South Asia. Neither do we want to nor are we capable of. Instead, we are depending on a peaceful South Asia so our fleet can pass through safely and our business can continue prosperous there. As most powerful nation in South Asia, it's India's responsibility to work with other surrounding nations to ensure a peaceful South Asia. India should take such initiative out of confidence, and optimistic about the future of South Asia.
Abandon Pakistan? No, how can you? It is your cat's paw! It is the cog of your strategy of using Pakistan to keep India occupied while you merrily go on adding to your arsenal in peace without conflict! No, I do not expect you to abandon Pakistan and which you will never do. I also do not expect you to bombard us with mealy mouthed pious platitude to lull us into complacency as you did after Bandung.

The dreamy esoteric idealism of India is no longer there. We have become practical and all thanks to you and your smiling deceit, forgetting that the origin of a smile need not be pleasant. One can also smile with sinister designs, which you did in 1962!! You tried again in 1969, but then you saw a resurgent India. You, thereafter, changed tack!

China is not supporting Pakistan as if Pakistan was its long lost brother after their birth (as is shown ad nauseum in Hindi films). The support is a strategic necessity, wherein Pakistan keeps India occupied and thus China can carry on its economic and military enhancement without wasting money on border defence and things like that. It is also essential for China to keep Pakistan in good humour since Pakistan is the source of fundamentalist terrorism and East Turkmenistan is a vulnerable area for China. If there is turmoil in East Turkmenistan, then the Hans settled there will flee hotfoot back to China and all the oil and minerals that you are extracting will stop and China's economy will nose dive.

Therefore, would you be kind enough spare us your pious homilies about 'saving' Pakistan from the ire of BIG India? Do tell these fairy tales to children and not pander it here. We have outgrown our toddler days and now do understand the world and events as it unfolds.

Pakistan does not want war? Pakistan wants to live in Peace? Is that what your CCP has told you? Fine, let us believe that it is so the case. If that is the case, then why is the womb of terrorism and why does it export terrorism the world over? Peace through terrorism? That's a new theory indeed!

The CCP may not have told you about Pakistan and terrorism export, but then pay heed to what DAWN, a widely read newspaper has to say of Uighurs. Pakistan, China and spreading of fundamentalism from Pakistan to China:

In fact, a militant Uighur uprising at this point would be more a self-fulfilling prophecy than new development. In recent years, China has waged a campaign denouncing Islamic extremists and separatists that it claims are agitating for an independent East Turkestan in Xinjiang. Beijing played up the extremist threat in Xinjiang in an effort to gain sympathy in the global context of the war against terror. A rhetorical device is now closer to becoming a reality.......

One of the reasons for this is the military operation currently underway in northwest Pakistan. In 2001, it was reported that up to 10,000 Uighurs had arrived in Pakistan to receive religious education.

More troubling is the fact that Uighur militants, as well as non-extremist Uighurs, will be returning to Xinjiang equipped with the rhetoric that fuels militancy. In April, the then outgoing Jamaat-i-Islami chief, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, said that the party had signed an MoU with China for permission to preach Islam there. He put forth the convoluted argument that the West was using trade with China as a means to bringing the nation into the Christian fold. Qazi Hussain Ahmed explained that before that could happen, the JI and other Muslim groups had to ensure that the ideological vacuum in China was filled with Islamic beliefs. This vision of China as an opportunity for Islamic expansionism is in danger of being exploited by militants to agitate for Muslim statehood and Sharia in Xinjiang.

Anticipating this, China has already cracked the whip on militant movements between Pakistan's north-western region and Xinjiang. In April, Chinese officials met NWFP politicians to request that access to Uighur separatists be curtailed. China also asked for Uighur militants in Fata to be identified and apprehended. Now, a militant uprising in Xinjiang is in danger of being seen by Beijing as the consequence of Pakistan's failure to follow through on its promises.

Dawn
Of course it is India's responsibility to have good relations with all. However, if China supplies nuclear technology and missiles and then act smug, it is hardly in consonance with China's charade of being an Honest Broker.
 
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White Clouds

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Sir, with due respects to this Chinese gentleman who speaks of peace and friendship and to you as well, I beg to point out that this peace initiative has no concurrence with the official and practical positions of PRC. There is absolutely nothing shameful about planning and desiring the recovery of our very own territories that have been occupied by PRC. What PRC and this person is doing, considering them as one entity, is like slapping someone on his face and then offering him a candy! I am fully aware that this gentleman was probably not responsible for PRC's occupation of Indian territories, however, he is fully aware of the ground realities, in which backdrop he started this thread.

I am deeply disappointed by what you wrote; however, I do acknowledge your right to freedom of speech!
Thank you for you're reply. Please don't take me in wrong sense I have nothing against gaining back our territory but not in a cowardly manner as S.A.T.A suggested. Here is S.A.T.A quote:

Originally Posted by S.A.T.A
India must try to main the pretense of friendship with China,as will China.we must however not let go amiss any opportunity that may present itself,whenever-however, to undermine that country.
I believe we Indians are brave people and face challenges head to head not by "pretending" to be friend and then undermining someone. That is the thing I do not agree with. Taking a cowardice path who manipulate will only make us similar to Pakistan. Pakistan attacked us thinking we are weak and they tried to manipualte our image internationally by deceiving others look where it got them today. Everytime Pakistan tried to do it we (India) only came out stronger. We should not forget that and it will do us good remembering not to emulate them (Pakistan). We should hold true to our values and the path we have taken which has helped us reach this stage in the world arena.

Ofcourse we should hold direct talks with China on these issues and demand what's rightfuly our's. At the same time building bridges and friendship is not bad.
 

pmaitra

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I believe we Indians are brave people and face challenges head to head not by "pretending" to be friend and then undermining someone. That is the thing I do not agree with. Taking a cowardice path who manipulate will only make us similar to Pakistan. Pakistan attacked us thinking we are weak and they tried to manipualte our image internationally by deceiving others look where it got them today. Everytime Pakistan tried to do it we (India) only came out stronger. We should not forget that and it will do us good remembering not to emulate them (Pakistan). We should hold true to our values and the path we have taken which has helped us reach this stage in the world arena.

Ofcourse we should hold direct talks with China on these issues and demand what's rightfuly our's. At the same time building bridges and friendship is not bad.
I have no doubt that Indians are brave. However, we are not living in the middle ages of sword-fights and duels. Advancement in technological warfare leaves little space of battlefield bravado, albeit, they do play important roles in certain encounters.

Deception is, as much as one might disagree, a part of warfare. Warfare is an art, of which, deception forms and integral part. Zhou Enlai having convinced Nehru that there will be no act of war, and earlier PRC having stated that they had no claims over India controlled territory, should not have led to a Chinese invasion. Think about it. PRC does not give a hoot about bravado and ethics in war. What matters, eventually, is that one belligerent gains at the expense of the other.

If India expects any respect, it has to be strong and ready to fight. I am not saying we should fight right away, but I am not convinced India will ever get back her territory through negotiations. There are some problems that can only be solved through war. It will happen, today or tomorrow. It's merely a matter of time. Temporary collaboration or 'friendship' is fine; but we should not lose sight of our final objectives.
 

no smoking

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From that list do just the last one (terminate relationship with Pakistan), and China will find itself an ally in India. It need not do anything else in that list.

What India can contribute to that list is:

-
I would glad if the conditin is just about Pak. But from what i read from this thread and other forum, it seems most of indians would want far more than that. I have even meat an indian asking for the controlling of Qingzang railway. And what make the thing worse is, as india is a democratic country, we don't know who makes the decision. Today, some top officers in GOI claim that india would settle the border by current controlling line. Then tomorrow, indian parliament issues a bill requiring the return of Askai Chin.
 

roma

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At least to you looks like I shouldn't write somthing like this since it not apply to India, but probably apply to Japan and Korea because Chinese think they are superior to Indian. And we are still remain enemy and a war might happen in 3 years. So sorry for wasting your time.
i wouldnt say so at all
the spirit of a forum is ...you see, to debate - unlike one-party systems where to put forwrd an opposing point of view hurts peoples' feelins , taken as a sign of disrespect etc ...i know that as i had some experience living in quasi - communisty regime ...a different point of view in a debate is not a waste of time - it is the strength of logic and the variety of argument that enrichens the debate - i hope i have explained reasonably well ?
 

roma

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At least to you looks like I shouldn't write somthing like this since it not apply to India, but probably apply to Japan and Korea because Chinese think they are superior to Indian. And we are still remain enemy and a war might happen in 3 years. So sorry for wasting your time.
tsk tsk tsk ....... the spirit of a forum is ...you see, to debate - unlike one-party systems where to put forward an opposing point of view hurts peoples' feelings , taken as a sign of disrespect etc ...i know that as i had some experience living in quasi - communist regime ...a different point of view in a debate is not a waste of time - it is the strength of logic and the variety of argument that enrichens the debate -

one more point of i may ? hurt feelings and foul language also (should) have no place in a debate or forum as is the case of this website . i know there have been some fires here but you could see the Admin stepping in.

Barring foul language the stronger and harder hitting the arguments , the better the debate and it tends to bring more people and arguments into the fray and that makes it more interesting ? dont you think ?

As for hurt feeling - if the focus is on the logic - then one should not take it personally .

But of course if one is used only to a one-party system or a centrally planned economy - then one is not used to bedate , free speech or forum becos - there everyone is taught never to disagree, only to bow their heads, smile and agree - otherwise ......
 
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roma

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i very hate your one behaver that you always say china will attack you.
chinese medias only focus on east asia, usa, europe, india's news is in corner
hype indian threaten? never happened.
while it is interesting to get foreign well-qualified (?) participants - it is drudgery to have to explain ( and if we dont explain - they continue with it ) to each one of them that a forum is a place for differeing views and there is no place for "disliking" someone else's point of view especially if they have to some extent explained it ...perhaps admin could get some of these socialist (communist ?) folks to read some kind of a rule list explainig what a forum is and sign it before posting here ?
 

no smoking

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Good point.

We should thank the person who started the thread for peace amongst neighbours and that two the two largest populated countries of the world!

We should work in tandem with China.

I would love that. I would love to return to the Principles of Panchsheel, enunciated by Pandit Nehru and the Bandung Conference, which the Chinese so readily acclaimed. I would love to yell lustily 'Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai' and that.

I would love to live in the vision of Pandit Nehru.

But then, I find it difficult to forget the back stab of Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai of 1962 wherein it has become 'Hindi Chini Bye Bye'.

Wars are won and lost and that is not important.

What is important is deceit laced with pious words of China following the Bandung Conference.

China lulled Nehru into a esoteric dream of a world without conflict.

And the result - 1962!!

Nehru never recovered from the shock of having been taken for a ride lulled with humble piety of the Chinese words!

I appreciate your view.

But then, I take solace and comfort in the warning - Once Bitten, Twice Shy!

And in the phrase in Virgil, Book 2 of 19 BC where in allusion to the Trojan Horse, wrote, 'Beware of Greeks bearing gifts'.

Peace I shall always embrace, but not Peace at all Cost bartering of our honour and sovereignty.
Yes, when Nehru was talking about Sino-india friendship, he refused the suggestion of diplomatic negotiation from china. Instead, he started his 'forward policy' to throw chinese soldier out of their post. Is that how indian treat his friends?
 

roma

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Signs of friendship:
1. From Chinese elementary history book India is taught as one of the 4 oldest Civilization of the world with many inventions and great culture.

2. In China's middle school India was taught as a country like China suffering Western Colonialism recently but eventually won their Independence due to her brave people's relentless struggle. When I was in school, the 1962 war was not even mentioned.

3. "The Pilgrimage to the West" is most popular story told by generations about a famous Monk risk his life to India in order to get the Buddhism back to China, which profoundly changed China

4. China's main stream rarely mentions India as threat. Rather, they wrote a lot about India's fast development and existing social problems, and how China should learn from them and avoid some mistakes.

5. India's movie in China, although few, all demonstrate the best part of India. In the movie people are nice and beautiful, dancing and singing, full of love story. I've seen numerous comments from Chinese people who longing to visit India and how much they like India. "3 Idiots" by RAJKUMAR HIRANI is very popular in China recently.

6. China's leader is willing to improve relationship with India. Premier When will visit India soon and President who has said many times about the importance to maintain a good bilateral relationship.

So what would you expect Chinese people to think about India? Did India government do similar things like these? Do you still think Chinese people or her government hate India and want to slice India into pieces like someone said?
i think the original question was what the government did - implying the focus was on the prc govt NOT the people ..... as many members on this forum have written , the problem is not the pople but rather certain hawks in the pr govt and military .

all the points written above as "evidence " - refere to classical past , history book and he even quotes an indian films as what their govt did ?? ~~
~~ reality is none of those points are any kind of sign of accomodation of the militaristic stand their govt is taking - nothing about decelerating the astonishing rate of purchase of military equipment , no sign of any let-up in border claims - just some romantic history and 3 idiots !! really !! - this sounds like a repeat of pre-1962 .....warmly saying bhai bhai and something else happpening
 

kickok1975

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i think the original question was what the government did - implying the focus was on the prc govt NOT the people ..... as many members on this forum have written , the problem is not the pople but rather certain hawks in the pr govt and military .

all the points written above as "evidence " - refere to classical past , history book and he even quotes an indian films as what their govt did ?? ~~
~~ reality is none of those points are any kind of sign of accomodation of the militaristic stand their govt is taking - nothing about decelerating the astonishing rate of purchase of military equipment , no sign of any let-up in border claims - just some romantic history and 3 idiots !! really !! - this sounds like a repeat of pre-1962 .....warmly saying bhai bhai and something else happpening
Brother, take it easy. I just listed facts of friendship in China. Most Chinese don't think Indian is enemy. Believe or not, China's government is in no mood to attack India either. They are worrying about being attacked instead of attacking someone else. You should focus your enthusiasms on more important tasks that can make India a more powerful and peaceful force in today's world, to prevent war not to promote war.
 
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roma

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Brother, take it easy. I just listed facts of friendship in China. Most Chinese don't think Indian is enemy. Believe or not, China's government is in no mood to attack India either. They are worrying about being attacked instead of attacking someone else. You should focus your enthusiasms on more important tasks that can make India a more powerful and peaceful force in today's world, to prevent war not to promote war.
dõ i look like a guy ? heheheheh
yes - ok its a great forum here and we can enjoy freedom of speech here rather than in real life - so we tend to go ahead with it - as for making india a more powerful nation - rahter instead most indians are more interested in alleviating poverty - to be pwerful was never our anmbition but we were forced into it partly by nehru's mistake regarding Dalai , at the beginning and then with that bad start, it now is hard to re-satart a new relationship with the important country china. If they could return some of the terroitory of AC ( Aksai chin ) tath would be a great symbolic gesture - plus define the border once and for all as the present line of contriol and the adjustment at AC - failing that the border situation remains unresolved and all the possibilities of hostilities remain still . other than those two moves i doubt anyone in india exept some corrupt few would really listen when prc claims to be a friend.

i might addd no one in india wants war wioth anyone - it's costly etc etc but for prc to saythey are a friend and to be taken seriously has top be backed with actions as i listed above - mere words at this stage are insufficient .
 
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niharjhatn

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i might addd no one in india wants war wioth anyone - it's costly etc etc but for prc to saythey are a friend and to be taken seriously has top be backed with actions as i listed above - mere words at this stage are insufficient .
The real issue is not war. War is almost never going to happen based on current technology. The issue is the mistrust, and the continual tension that it generates. It ends up being almost as destructive as war. The situation is further complexed by the attitudes of us Indians - if you shake the hand of the Chinese, count how many fingers you take back!
 

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