China admits true debt levels

Armand2REP

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Damn!!!!

@Armand2REP Isn't most of China's debt local and not international? What are consequences of having a huge local debt?

Economic illiterate here.
It means you can amass a bigger pile of debt at lower interest rates. The problem is that 60% of all new loans are going to service the interest on that debt and at $71 trillion, China is running out of maneuvering room. The consequences are mass defaults and the Chinese economy goes into depression.
 

Yggdrasil

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It means you can amass a bigger pile of debt at lower interest rates. The problem is that 60% of all new loans are going to service the interest on that debt and at $71 trillion, China is running out of maneuvering room. The consequences are mass defaults and the Chinese economy goes into depression.
...unless they can economically enslave countries like Pakistan and demand double-digit interest for paying their own companies to build pointless infrastructure? Am I right?
 

Armand2REP

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...unless they can economically enslave countries like Pakistan and demand double-digit interest for paying their own companies to build pointless infrastructure? Am I right?
Even Pakistan is complaining about $100 billion in pointless infrastructure loans from China being built with Chinese labour and source materials. If Pakistan could not keep up the payments China would demand ownership in national assets in exchange.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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It means you can amass a bigger pile of debt at lower interest rates. The problem is that 60% of all new loans are going to service the interest on that debt and at $71 trillion, China is running out of maneuvering room. The consequences are mass defaults and the Chinese economy goes into depression.
What you reported here is not govt debt, but bank debt.

Question is- how much of it is risky debt and how much safe?
 

Armand2REP

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What you reported here is not govt debt, but bank debt.

Question is- how much of it is risky debt and how much safe?
Chinese banks are state owned which makes all of it the liability of the government. NPLs are estimated at 20-30% of total liabilities, at $71 trillion that is between $14 trillion and $21 trillion in bad debt. 60% of new loans are servicing old loans so that should give you an idea of how bad it is getting.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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Chinese banks are state owned which makes all of it the liability of the government. NPLs are estimated at 20-30% of total liabilities, at $71 trillion that is between $14 trillion and $21 trillion in bad debt. 60% of new loans are servicing old loans so that should give you an idea of how bad it is getting.
Check any balance sheet. Liabilities = Assets

So, 20-30% of bad debt brings debt servicability to 14-21$ trillion i.e. 100-150% debt/GDP ratio.

Now so bad a picture as you posted in beginning. Many countries above 100% levels.
 

Armand2REP

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+1

Are we looking towards a repeat of 2008 crisis or is it merely an exaggeration?
China is not as deeply connected as the US is, but the depth of contagion is so high it will probably be equal to it.
 

Armand2REP

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Check any balance sheet. Liabilities = Assets

So, 20-30% of bad debt brings debt servicability to 14-21$ trillion i.e. 100-150% debt/GDP ratio.

Now so bad a picture as you posted in beginning. Many countries above 100% levels.
Chinese assets are crumbling ghost cities. What are they going to sell to come up with a $14 trillion bailout?
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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Chinese assets are crumbling ghost cities. What are they going to sell to come up with a $14 trillion bailout?
Inflation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Technically it is soft default. Fully legal. They aint Greeks with German gun to their head.
 

Armand2REP

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Inflation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Technically it is soft default. Fully legal. They aint Greeks with German gun to their head.
Chinese currency is pegged to the USD. If they let it drop no one will do business with them which is a no go for an export dependent economy. If they lose that sector they go back to Mao era poverty. China needs to suffer the defaults to clear out the bad debt, it will mean hard suffering but they must face it and get back to sustainable growth.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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Chinese currency is pegged to the USD. If they let it drop no one will do business with them which is a no go for an export dependent economy. If they lose that sector they go back to Mao era poverty. China needs to suffer the defaults to clear out the bad debt, it will mean hard suffering but they must face it and get back to sustainable growth.
It is already super low, making their exports competitive.

They want it more low to not lose business to vietnam and BD.
 

Armand2REP

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It is already super low, making their exports competitive.

They want it more low to not lose business to vietnam and BD.
The cheaper they make their exports the less profit they make. The reason they have such high NPLs is because they are already selling borderline or at a loss. Sell at a greater loss industry wide and guess what... no more industry.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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The cheaper they make their exports the less profit they make. The reason they have such high NPLs is because they are already selling borderline or at a loss. Sell at a greater loss industry wide and guess what... no more industry.
Deflated currency does not mean cheaper for locals. Cheaper for outsiders for sure. Does not harm local profits. Increase them through increased production.

The ghost towns are not build using sovereign debt, but using yuan. And yuan can be used to pay off local debt as long as factories keep running.

More important question is- Can China keep RMB at such low levels forever to keep its factories working?
 

Armand2REP

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Deflated currency does not mean cheaper for locals. Cheaper for outsiders for sure. Does not harm local profits. Increase them through increased production.

The ghost towns are not build using sovereign debt, but using yuan. And yuan can be used to pay off local debt as long as factories keep running.

More important question is- Can China keep RMB at such low levels forever to keep its factories working?
They can't do it in the first place. When the yuan drops China faces massive amounts of capital flight. The FOREX depletes to offset the loss of currency. If it drops below the balance of trade payments they can no longer trade. Without trade China goes belly up.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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They can't do it in the first place. When the yuan drops China faces massive amounts of capital flight. The FOREX depletes to offset the loss of currency. If it drops below the balance of trade payments they can no longer trade. Without trade China goes belly up.

You know how much it needs to fall to cause that? China has huge trade surplus.

Cheap RMB = > More exports => incoming foreign currency ==> stops depreciation ==> China can pay for imports

It creates virtuous trade cycle
 

Armand2REP

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You know how much it needs to fall to cause that? China has huge trade surplus.

Cheap RMB = > More exports => incoming foreign currency ==> stops depreciation ==> China can pay for imports

It creates virtuous trade cycle
A currency devaluation of 6.5% lost nearly $1 trillion in FOREX, another drop like that and they are done. More exports at the same price doesn't mean more currency, it means greater losses to exporters. They already suffered 20 million lost export jobs the last time and inflated the property bubble to create temporary construction jobs to keep them employed. Inflation is not in the Chinese tool-belt.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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A currency devaluation of 6.5% lost nearly $1 trillion in FOREX, another drop like that and they are done. More exports at the same price doesn't mean more currency, it means greater losses to exporters. They already suffered 20 million lost export jobs the last time and inflated the property bubble to create temporary construction jobs to keep them employed. Inflation is not in the Chinese tool-belt thanks to their export dependent economy.
Forex devaluation happens when you are trying to hold a currency at certain level.

More exports can mean more/less (depends on price*quantity). 100l milk at 1$ (100 yuan) or 200l milk at 0.5$/litre (100 yuan), both generate 100$. If it is 0.5$/litre you sell more of your product (i.e. depreciated currency)..
 

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