Chengdu J-10 'Vigorous Dragon'

[shiphone]

I went to Zhuhai for AirshowChina 2012...just recheck my Camera yesterday. I found I have some clips by myself...
there were some new arrangments of Aerobatic Team's formation movement, but not very obviously...

[video=youtube_share;PuRtmC9M-eM]http://youtu.be/PuRtmC9M-eM[/video]
[video=youtube_share;NLGg93kRaQs]http://youtu.be/NLGg93kRaQs[/video]
[video=youtube_share;5U5z17-Hc54]http://youtu.be/5U5z17-Hc54[/video]

there was another open show by the Aerobatic Team on the PLAAF's open day...this video was recorded via a fisheye lens by a member from CD forum last August...very interesting visual perception...

[video=youtube_share;2z9mkJE5gZQ]http://youtu.be/2z9mkJE5gZQ[/video]

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a clip of offcial video...
[video=youtube_share;2CHAD7bv91Y]http://youtu.be/2CHAD7bv91Y[/video]

 

[shiphone]

MAKS 2013 China Air Force August 1st.aerobatic team...the team performaced 1 training(Aug 26) and 3 formal show(Aug 30,31,Sep 1) in Moscow...

this is the show today. the weather seems better than yesterday and the day before...

today's shot

-----------------------------------------------

the J10A's production for PLAAF might have ended, and the J10B varient has been on the assembly line for a while...the first combat unit would get their first SP batch birds by this year end...

J10B's new cockpit----we could see some mature parts from J11B(ex.Wide field diffraction optics head-up display) and FC-1(ex.Larger scale LCD display)

(the above one is the J10A's cockpit for comparison.)

---------------------
and What's Next？

The latest rumor (June 2013) claimed that a further upgraded semi-stealth multi-role variant (J-10C?) with CFT and AG-enhanced electronics was rumored to be under development. First flight is expected in late 2013.

this would be the competitor to SAC's J16 project for Air to Ground purpose...some CGs years before

the wind tunnel test of CFT design

 

[p2prada]

the J10A's production for PLAAF might have ended, and the J10B varient has been on the assembly line for a while...the first combat unit would get their first SP batch birds by this year end...

Has PAF made up it's mind about buying J-10s? They will barely be able to match IAF's Rafale timeline if even PLAAF gets IOC fighters this year, considering they sign on the dotted line the same time we do.

this would be the competitor to SAC's J16 project for Air to Ground purpose...some CGs years before

History is repeating itself. A light fighter and a heavy fighter will compete for strike fighter requirements for a second time, like F-15E and F-16XL in the past.

 

[Armand2REP]

MAKS 2013 China Air Force August 1st.aerobatic team...the team performaced 1 training(Aug 26) and 3 formal show(Aug 30,31,Sep 1) in Moscow...

this is the show today. the weather seems better than yesterday and the day before...

today's shot

-----------------------------------------------

the J10A's production for PLAAF might have ended, and the J10B varient has been on the assembly line for a while...the first combat unit would get their first SP batch birds by this year end...

J10B's new cockpit----we could see some mature parts from J11B(ex.Wide field diffraction optics head-up display) and FC-1(ex.Larger scale LCD display)

(the above one is the J10A's cockpit for comparison.)

---------------------
and What's Next？

this would be the competitor to SAC's J16 project for Air to Ground purpose...some CGs years before

the wind tunnel test of CFT design

Photochop......

 

[drkrn]

@Armand2REP how are you saying this..just curious to know

 

[Armand2REP]

@Armand2REP how are you saying this..just curious to know

Payload config is wrong...

 

[shiphone]

it seems last time Server Breaking-down ate up my reply...LOL...
and it seems some famous so called 'expert' (actually the laugh stock)even coundn't understand the abbreviation :CG=Computer Graphics .and simplely call everything PS although those were 3D arts generated via 3D software.

this would be the competitor to SAC's J16 project for Air to Ground purpose...some CGs years before

-------------------------
to P2P

1.so far ,PAF have no plan to order any J10 due to various reasons...

a. Funds,---PAF need more funds and obviously J10 costs much more than FC-1 and the current Intergovernmental loan can't cover it
b. Engine ---WS10A needs more time...AL31FN? this might need more effort
c. PLAAF's order---although in 2012 CAC made around 60 J10A/S , it seems still not enough for AF's current upgrade plan.
d. PAF has got more F16s, and needn't J10A urgently....any way ,one more fighter with another engine would bring many trouble for the logistics team and the whole Airforce

the high ranking officer from PAF confirmed this on the AirShow China last November....and on the recent Aviation Expo 2013, Beijing(ended today), the senior offerial from the China's Aviation Industury confirmer it again in other interviews....

2. in the past 2 years, PLAAF brought all second line Fighters regiment(training regiments) back to the Combat Order....these regiments are flying the old J7 varients-- J7B and J7H which have a average life of around 20 years...nowadays, PLAAF are still operating around more than 25 regiments of J7 varients(normally 32 jets per regiment----800 set of all kinds of J7s). so when the J10B are going to replace the J7B/H in the coming years, there is enough space for a new varient of J10 to replace the latest J7 varients like J7E and J7G after 5-6 years. by that time, the Air-Ground ability would be more important for PLAAF cos enough air superiority fighter units are already in service(around 25 regiments of J11 and J10) and J20 is coming...although SAC has J16 project on track ,we don't think these single engined fighter units would be all replaced by Heavy twin engined fighters(Cost rules)....so it seems that CAC get the market and chance to develop a AG ability enhanced varient of J10...we don't think CAC would ignore this...

=====================
the evolution of the first Prototype of J10B with timeline ...PT1031
note: this is a collection by some other member from some China Defence forum. just a cross post work here...

 

[p2prada]

b. Engine ---WS10A needs more time...AL31FN? this might need more effort

Do you guys have an upgrade contract or plan to have one for the AL-31FN? There is no future for J-10 if the engine is neither changed nor upgraded.

c. PLAAF's order---although in 2012 CAC made around 60 J10A/S , it seems still not enough for AF's current upgrade plan.

How many J-10s are planned to be made? Any idea?

2. in the past 2 years, PLAAF brought all second line Fighters regiment(training regiments) back to the Combat Order....these regiments are flying the old J7 varients-- J7B and J7H which have a average life of around 20 years...nowadays, PLAAF are still operating around more than 25 regiments of J7 varients(normally 32 jets per regiment----800 set of all kinds of J7s). so when the J10B are going to replace the J7B/H in the coming years, there is enough space for a new varient of J10 to replace the latest J7 varients like J7E and J7G after 5-6 years. by that time, the Air-Ground ability would be more important for PLAAF cos enough air superiority fighter units are already in service(around 25 regiments of J11 and J10) and J20 is coming...although SAC has J16 project on track ,we don't think these single engined fighter units would be all replaced by Heavy twin engined fighters(Cost rules)....so it seems that CAC get the market and chance to develop a AG ability enhanced varient of J10...we don't think CAC would ignore this...

So there is still a potential 800 J-10 orders, if PLAAF wants them replaced 1:1. But I thought that's not the plan.

So 25 regiments of modern aircraft in active service and a possible 25 more J-10 regiments. It does sound realistic, looking at the threat perception and finances.

 

[shiphone]

1. two opions:

a. some sub-model of WS10B...improved WS10A with a redesigned Low presure compressor and some other improvement...the flight test has begun on the J10B PT1035...
b. 99m seiral, also known as AL31FM1,2-- at least the first 2 batchs of J10B Serial Production is coming with some new varient of AL31FN sharing the same improment with AL31FM1.....a 13.5 tons level engine...

the AL31Fn on J10A/S has around 1500 hours usage life which is not enough for the life of airframe...we don't know whether these would be replaced by engines mentioned above or keep importing new AL31Fns. maybe we have to wait for the Russian news source cos obviously PLAAF won't say a single word as usual...LOL

2.Our observation suggests that in the near future PLAAF has no willing to reduce the number of the operating combat regiments(in the past years,even some new regiments were raised or reraised) ....the airplane replacement won't be 1:1, the 3rd Gen firghter(our standard) regiment opreats less jets(24-28 sets) and nowadays the only J7 regiment in PLA navy aviation owns 50+ all kinds of J7s...in the past 3 years, the modified J7 units get J11B ,J10A ,and one regiment got the second hand J11/su27 from other regiment, even one regiment got the JH7A attacter after they handed out their J7G.
so far J7E fleet has around 15-17 years average life...but the J7G fleet is quite young...I remember the last batch was delivered in 2009.so J7 would also stay with us for another around 10 years. aroud 300-400 very old J7B/H urgently need the replacement. and this is might be the market for the J10B.so another 300 J10B might be possiable. (so far 300 J10A are operational in 10.5 combat units.)

J10C is too early to say. its future is uncertain. we prefer to talking about it when this bird in the air

J10A got the nod for Export in 2009 ,but obviously no such order is confirmed...the CATIC(China National Aero-Technology Import Export Corporation) is busy with the promoting.

 

[mattster]

It looks like a F-16 copy with canards and the intake modified to make it bigger.

Somehow i get the feeling that it wont get past the latest block F-16.

You get the feeling that it is partly copied and then modified to make it more upto date.

 

[nimo_cn]

It looks like a F-16 copy with canards and the intake modified to make it bigger.

Somehow i get the feeling that it wont get past the latest block F-16.

You get the feeling that it is partly copied and then modified to make it more upto date.

Any comment on its resemblance with LAVI?

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2

 

[bose]

Chinese are very good at making illegal copies from others... I regret there are no NOBEL prizes for that noble effort from Chinese"¦ I read few days back now they want their children to look like Caucasians... waiting for that day when all future Chinese children will be copies of Caucasians"¦ China go and make it possible"¦ you can"¦

 

[p2prada]

so far J7E fleet has around 15-17 years average life...but the J7G fleet is quite young...I remember the last batch was delivered in 2009.so J7 would also stay with us for another around 10 years. aroud 300-400 very old J7B/H urgently need the replacement. and this is might be the market for the J10B.so another 300 J10B might be possiable. (so far 300 J10A are operational in 10.5 combat units.)

So a mix of new JH-7A and J-10Bs then?

J10A got the nod for Export in 2009 ,but obviously no such order is confirmed...the CATIC(China National Aero-Technology Import Export Corporation) is busy with the promoting.

Any J-10 export order will receive a lot of attention. But that means PAF is still not cleared for J-10B export. In a way it makes sense considering even PLAAF is receiving only IOC versions now.

 

[gadeshi]

It means that Russia has forbidden Al-31FN reexport.

Chinese or anyone else cannot sell anything without key technologies and parts owners approval.
So, no export will be possible untill Russians will grant such permissions to China and will support it selling key hot-stages engine parts to sustain a sprues stocks.

As far as Chinese are unable to develop and produce modern fighter engines or even their key parts, they are completely dependant from Russian export. But Russians have rejected to give a reexport permissions.

 

[asianobserve]

It looks like a F-16 copy with canards and the intake modified to make it bigger.

Somehow i get the feeling that it wont get past the latest block F-16.

You get the feeling that it is partly copied and then modified to make it more upto date.

The most direct aircraft that comes to mind is the LAVI, which in turn is a design based on the F16.

 

[mattster]

Chinese are very good at making illegal copies from others... I regret there are no NOBEL prizes for that noble effort from Chinese"¦ I read few days back now they want their children to look like Caucasians... waiting for that day when all future Chinese children will be copies of Caucasians"¦ China go and make it possible"¦ you can"¦

I agree.......copying an aircraft is not easy or trivial.
You have to give the Chinese credit for it.

But this looks like a F-16 in the front and a Eurofighter on the back.
The Chinese are very pragmatic people. They will do whatever is easiest and makes most sense.

Having said that it does not have the look of a holistic design.
Rather it looks like a Mix and Match job !

 

[shiphone]

.one example that JH7A replaced one regiment's old J7 doesn't mean it would a be general phenomenon...this example actualy has other complicated reasons ,and as I know ,one formal Q5 attacker regiment convert to a firghter regiment after getting the J10s to replace the retired Q5 ...what I mean is that these J7(800+) may NOT get replaced all by J10.so the further J10B order might not be thar large...
J16,second hand J11/Su27 from the other ACE units are all possiable...on the other hand ,JH7A might not be able to get more orders from AirForce who has the new lover ---J16.....JH7's next varient(JH7B) would be a pure Navy Aviation project, ----the maiden flight took place last year....

------------------------------
J10A got the export permit ...not J10B,I'm afraid PAF won't get any J10B at least in the next 5 years...

our procedure might be a little different from your custom or undesrtanding...the key milestone for a fighter project is not your familar IOC, FOC concept,but two important node:

1. the Aircraft design certification for the R&D team---611 institue in this case
2. the Aircraft Production certification for the Manufacturer---CAC

after these,the first combat unit would get a Fighting Plane with Full Combat ability maching all the targets and specs requested by the customer. then it would be the AirForce's duty to learn how to operate,mantain this new quipment and creat the tactics...this unit finaly would have to pass the yearly PLA's trainging and evaluation standard(it might be equal to your FOC).
the J10B serial production batch just started the plant Test flight by the CAC's test pilots...then the PLAAF pilots would take over for 'hand-over' flight test the first combat unit would get some birds by year end .after that ,normaly it would take a year for this unit achieve the Full Combat ability ..

so far J10B has passed the national design certification , so R&D team could celebrate now...and CAC is quite under pressure to pass the national Production certification(normally it might take years, but it won't affect the hand-over and operation by PLAAF)

 

[bose]

I agree.......copying an aircraft is not easy or trivial.
You have to give the Chinese credit for it.

But this looks like a F-16 in the front and a Eurofighter on the back.
The Chinese are very pragmatic people. They will do whatever is easiest and makes most sense.

Having said that it does not have the look of a holistic design.
Rather it looks like a Mix and Match job !

There is one issue here that is if one continues to copy from others they lose the innovative thinking in the long run"¦ I saw one of my colleagues buying a Chinese copy of Motorola latest smartphone that came into the market few months back"¦ Chinese just want to copy anything and everything, the illegal copying has been institutionalized in that country"¦

Now coming back to the aviation industries do you really think that what Americans, Russians, French, British and Germans achieved in last 100 years in aviation industries can be made up in 10 – 15 years just by coping from them"¦ Chinese can copy the airframe but not the engines that evolved for last 50 years or so"¦ Chinese lay flat on that account"¦

 

[p2prada]

.one example that JH7A replaced one regiment's old J7 doesn't mean it would a be general phenomenon...this example actualy has other complicated reasons ,and as I know ,one formal Q5 attacker regiment convert to a firghter regiment after getting the J10s to replace the retired Q5 ...what I mean is that these J7(800+) may NOT get replaced all by J10.so the further J10B order might not be thar large...
J16,second hand J11/Su27 from the other ACE units are all possiable...on the other hand ,JH7A might not be able to get more orders from AirForce who has the new lover ---J16.....JH7's next varient(JH7B) would be a pure Navy Aviation project, ----the maiden flight took place last year....

Hmm, so less hopes from JF-7A. I was thinking the strike optimized variants of J-7 will get phased out by JH-7A.

IMO, you have too many specialized Flankers, instead of pure multirole capability. But I suppose you can afford them.

J10A got the export permit ...not J10B,I'm afraid PAF won't get any J10B at least in the next 5 years...

Will this J-10A come with AESA?

our procedure might be a little different from your custom or undesrtanding...the key milestone for a fighter project is not your familar IOC, FOC concept,but two important node:

1. the Aircraft design certification for the R&D team---611 institue in this case
2. the Aircraft Production certification for the Manufacturer---CAC

Both together is our IOC. But both happen almost together, at least with LCA. Good to know this.

so far J10B has passed the national design certification , so R&D team could celebrate now...and CAC is quite under pressure to pass the national Production certification(normally it might take years, but it won't affect the hand-over and operation by PLAAF)

Why should it take years? J-10B is just a modification of J-10A. Most of the production standards should be similar.

 

[shiphone]

1.

'JF7A' or 'strike optimized variants of J-7'

----------no such things...

J7 serial(B,C,D,E,G varients) is a typical Point defence fighter or interceptor ..but only one Varient---J7H which entered in service in mid-1980s was developped for some Enhanced Air-Ground ability originaly ...two improvement were just 1.enhanced wing structure with one more heavy payload mount point each to carry Bombs...2. new avionics including a HUD with A-G mode..but in the end , the enhanced payload ability was used to carry the much heavier PL8 AA missile. and the Air to Ground role was never arranged to these J7H units...

USAAF and RuAF also operate specialized heavy fighters , instead of multirole capability. (F15C/D vs F15E ,Su27/35 vs Su30SM/Su34)...I thought the fleet scale and manpower of the each AirForce decided it...PLAAF has around 400K personal and around 2000 combat airplanes, so it might afford such 'luxury'...and on the other hand, the specialized fighter unit might have better training and combat ability in either air-air or air- gound combat .it is reasonable due to the more focused training and flight hours .and it is approved by the fact --- there are 4 Su30MKK regiments in PLAAF. the only unit for A2A combat purpose to study the twin-seater fighter's air-air combat tactics and specialty(the rest focus in A2G training) won most among the four regiments in the 'Red Flag' style Air combat exercise organized by PLAAF...

2. as I know the current J-10 export version would be close to J10A hardware standard...and no AESA ...
J10A (enter service since 2007)has been an improved varient comparing with the J10 in 2003. the Radar has been improved or Changed....the difference is quite obvious.

J10(prototype)'s radar (above) and J10A's radar(below)

3. LCA's question is that some ability would be achieved in FOC phase .e.g. BVR combat ability. and higher AOA...but in our procedure, all ability should match the goal before the nation issues the 'Aircraft design certification' to the R&D team...so I thought the difference is there...

4.only when the manufacturer managed to deliver several batches of aircrafts with acceptable and consistent quality ,the national Production certification would be approved...so it might take some time. in the history .some aircraft project or varient never got Production certification but the Design certification because of the continuous quality issues or the limited manufacture numbers and batches.