Chengdu J-10 fighter jet

Discussion in 'China' started by Martian, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    Chinese J-10A armed with PL-12 missile is far superior to French Rafale armed with MICA missile

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    PL-12 / SD-10A on display at Datangshan in 2010 (Zhenguan Studio, © 2010, Air Power Australia).

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    A MICA EM missile (top) and MICA IR (bottom), displayed at Farnborough in 1998 (Duncan Lennox)

    1. The Chinese PL-12 air-to-air missile has higher potential energy in combat. The Chinese J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

    2. The Chinese PL-12 missile has higher kinetic energy in combat. A missile fired from a Mach 2.2 J-10A will fly much further than a missile fired from a much slower Mach 1.8 Rafale. The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale.

    3. The Chinese PL-12 missile is significantly larger in size and can carry more rocket propellant. More rocket fuel means greater range.

    Chinese PL-12 missile has a volume of 3.7m x pi x (0.1m^2) = 0.116 cubic meters

    French MICA missile has a volume of 3.1m x pi x (0.08m^2) = 0.062 cubic meters

    In conclusion, the Chinese PL-12 has almost twice the volume of the much smaller French Rafale missile.
    _________________________________________________________________________________

    PL-12 | GlobalSecurity

    "The missile is thought to correspond to the PL-12 designation, which is also associated with the SD-10 designation, possibly for export purposes. Like the basic R-77, Project 129 appears to have a body diameter of 200 mm., with a length of around 3.7 meters (12.1 ft.)."
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    Mica RF - Deagel

    "Mica RF
    IOC: 1996
    Also Known As: Mica EM
    Origin: France
    Contractor/s: MBDA

    Dimensions

    Diameter: 160 millimeter
    Length: 3.10 meter"
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    China's J-10A Vigorous Dragon is superior to French Rafale

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    China's J-10A flies higher, faster, and carry longer-range PL-12 AAM (air-to-air missile) than French Rafale.

    [​IMG]
    The J-10A carries four PL-12 missiles with 70+ km range that can easily shoot down a French Rafale carrying shorter 50km range MICA missiles.

    The J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

    For within-visual-range (WVR) combat, a J-10A can circle above and swoop down with guns blazing on a helpless French Rafale. On the other hand, a French Rafale cannot engage a high-flying J-10A at 18,000m (which is 1,200m beyond the French Rafale's service ceiling).

    The J-10A can carry four PL-12 beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles with 70+ km range. However, the MICA missile carried by the French Rafale has a much shorter 50km range (according to GlobalSecurity).

    There is an alternative citation for a higher 100km range for the PL-12 (see International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > The Air Balance on the Taiwan Strait).

    The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale. This means the J-10A can fire its four PL-12 missiles at a French Rafale at 60km and fly home safely. The French Rafale's slower speed means it cannot chase down a J-10A.

    The final point is the deadliness of China's PL-12 missiles.

    Advanced but Unproved Chinese BVR Medium Range Missile SD-10

    "Its seven recent test firings all hit the targets.
    ...
    Experts believe that domestic SD-10's performance has surpassed the U.S. AIM-120A/B, Russian R-77 and the French MICA (Missile d'Interception et de Combat Aerien), etc., and close to the AIM-120C."

    [Note: PL-12/SD-10 refers to the same missile.]

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    References (for Wikipedia articles, see primary source footnotes):

    Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mica | GlobalSecurity
     
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  3. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Best Post Of the Year 2014
     
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  4. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Martian, could you do us a favor by sending the post of yours to Defense Ministry of India. If J10 successfully replaces Rafale as India's projected MMRCA, you would earn much needed appreciation if not money.
     
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  5. Srinivas_K

    Srinivas_K Senior Member Senior Member

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    Even though when J-10 fires PL-12 at a higher altitude and can go more distance,. J10 is equipped with Multi mode radar.
    In dog fights it all depends on who sees the enemy first and outmaneuvers him, French are known for better avionics and recent reports suggest Rafale is integrated with AESA.


    1) Higher kinetic energy means low maneuverability, easy to evade the missile.

    2) MICA comes with thrust vectoring and so MICA is an effective missile.


    1) PL-12 is 180 Kg and MICA is 112 Kg, when it comes to carrying more pay load i.e more missiles MICA has advantage over PL-12.

    2) Yes PL-12 has twice the volume but not twice the range of MICA, the range of missile not only depends on volume but also quality of rocket propellant. Seems MICA has very good rocket propellant compared to PL-12.




    Rafale specs

    Performance

    Dry thrust 2 x 50 kN (11,250 lbf)
    Thrust with afterburner 2 x 75 kN (17,000 lbf)
    Maximum speed Mach 2 (2,130 km/h, 1,320 mph)
    Range 1,800 km (970 nm, 1,100 mi)
    Service ceiling 18,000 m (60,000 ft)
    Rate of climb >305 m/s (60,000 ft/min)
    Wing loading 326 kg/m² (83 1/3 lb/ft²)
    Thrust/weight 1.13

    J10 specs

    Performance
    Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude,[53][54] Mach 1.2 at sea level[7]
    g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²[7])
    Combat radius: 1,600 km (with air to air refueling), 550 km (without air to air refueling)[45][52] ()
    Ferry range: 1,850 km[52] ()
    Service ceiling: 18,000 m[52] (59,055 ft)
    Wing loading: 381 kg/m² (78 lb/ft²)
    Thrust/weight: 1.024 (with AL-31); 1.085 (with WS-10A)
    Rate of Climb, max. 285 m/s max 315 m/s

    Based on the specs Rafale comfortably beats J10

    1) thrust to weight ration, rate of climb ..... more manuverable.

    2) Good thrust to weight ratio ...... can carry more missiles and can take off from heights.

    3) Max speed is almost equal for two fighter jets as most of the fighters do not go to that limit.

    4) Better Radar and avionics. This makes the main difference in BVR fights and Rafale has significant advantage over J10 .

    @pmaitra @Kunal Biswas @Singh please remove my earlier post no #3, it is a duplicate post.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  6. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    What about Meteor and its potential ballistic path range of over 200 Km and potential altitude in that profile of over 30 Km?

    You won't be firing the missile at mach 2.2. Neither will Rafale at mach 1.8. The stress on the ejectors will be too much. You will run out of fuel before you do anything anyway. BVR engagement happens over long periods of time. Going supersonic at mach 2.2 for 3 mins will kill you.

    Btw, I want a source saying J-10 does mach 2.2. A proper source.

    I hope you do realize Meteor is available to us.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    What about the FGFA escort at 23 Km altitude?

    I hope you realize that service ceiling is not a hard limit. Not like Rafale will go up to 17 Km and then go bonk on the invisible roof.

    Astra Mk1 missile also has the same range. Same dimensions as what you posted for PL-12. You can expect Astra to be on Rafale.

    Yes, a 70Km range missile will do more at higher altitudes. RVV-AE does 90 Km.

    Don't use wiki as a source. Rather use the reference citations and post the links here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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  7. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    Meteor won't be in service until 2017

    I compared current weapon capabilities.

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    Rafale looks to the future - Air&Cosmos

    "Rafale looks to the future - Air&Cosmos

    Jan 23, 2014 - According to Howyan, Meteor integration could be complete by mid-2017. French Rafales will be able to carry two Meteors, on the rear lateral ..."
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  8. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Chinese J 10 light fighter with YJ-91 anti-radiation missile..See the J 10 Config, three drop tanks plus the ARM missile ..better payload for long legged mission
     
  9. Pandora

    Pandora Regular Member

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    Seriously its better to sit in a 50yr old Mirage V than these J10 A,B,C etc etc. No offence to chinese members but Chinese made fighters are result of hush hush .
     
  10. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

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    [​IMG]

    when J10 was under development,the KD-88 AGM was one item of Weapon test for certification which means J10 early varients could launch KD-88...but after service, we never see J10A/S flying with this PLAAF standard AGM ...the YJ-91 on J10B is something interesting

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    3rd Gen(or 4th Gen in your standard ) fighters seem to all apply the 'Half-fuel ' configuration theory to impove the Thrust/Weight Ratio amd maneuverability which means internal fuel capacity is relatively small and heavily depend on the drop tanks to ensure enough combat radius/Range for most mission profiles...so the drop tanks is a 'MUST' ... su-27 might be the only exception among this generation fighter designs.

    unlike F-16, J-10 has no wing tip rail and late F16 verions have 6 pylons under wing + 2 on wing tip which could launch AIM-120.. the delta winged J10 with small wingspan could only chose the twin-rail pylon to bring more bvr missiles...

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    [​IMG]

    on the other hand, in A2G mission profile. J10 could use 4 fuselage hardpoint(11 in total) to carry up to 250kg class PGM/bombs. but if larger AGM(YJ-91,YJ-83K,KD-88) is requested, the middle under wing hard points will be taken and no place for self-defence PL-12 BVR,the most capable inner under wing hard points are always kept for the large drop tanks...

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    so a CFT configuration might be a solution for such J10 A2G mission profiles...the CFT scheme has been studied for a decade...in recently years ,we observed that the J10 combat units were given more A2G mission request and trainings...so it was said a new development version of J10 serial has started...the new J-10D(?) would also have a more powerful WS10 varient to compensate the increasd drag issue and replace the current Russian engines. the released inner hardpoint is for the large A2G ammunitions(including bigger dispenser ) and necessary PL-12 can be carried too..

    53260385_1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016

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