Centre's RTE in itsy bitsy pieces

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by VIP, Jun 16, 2013.

  1. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    Talk about stirring up a hornet’s nest. A task force set up by the central government has recommended carving out reservations for scheduled caste (SC) and scheduled tribe (ST) students from the 25% seat quota that the Right to Education (RTE) Act mandates in private unaided schools.

    It has recommended that 8% of the seats falling under the quota for disadvantaged and economically-weaker sections should be kept aside for SCs and 4% for the STs.

    The task force, set up by the national monitoring committee for the education of SCs, STs and persons with disabilities, submitted a report with its suggestions on Wednesday. The committee, headed by minister of human resource development (HRD) MM Pallam Raju, was constituted to advise the government on all matters related to the education of SCs, STs and the physically-challenged.

    The task force has argued that the odds can be stacked against SC/ST students during admissions to private unaided schools. “There is no break-up of the 25% [reservation] between SC, ST, BC (backward class) and other children below notified income (sic),” states its report.

    “This makes it possible for the proprietors of private unaided schools, which are always/almost always non-SC, non-ST to fulfil the 25% stipulation without taking in a single child of the SC, ST or BC.”

    Minister of state for HRD Shashi Tharoor says the ministry will deliberate on the suggestions and will arrive at a decision in four weeks.

    Educationist Vinod Raina, who has been the one of the key architects of the RTE Act, is all for the change as long as it is “rational”. “I don’t think this will require an amendment to the Act. If the state governments want, they can mention specific quotas for SCs and STs in their model rules under the RTE Act.” He, however, warns that such a sub-quota can be misused by the rich if an income cap is not laid down.

    But Ashok Aggarwal, Delhi high court lawyer and RTE activist, dubs the idea as “populist”.

    “The 25% reservation in private schools already covers SCs and STs. The beauty of the Act is that it does not discriminate between different disadvantaged categories. If you create a quota within quota, that defeats the purpose of the Act and makes education exclusive and not inclusive.”

    Avnita Bir, principal of RN Poddar School in Mumbai, feels the government is pushing the envelope too much. “I support making schools more inclusive, but to have a sub-quota is asking for a lot. The [RTE] Act is about being open-minded about children from all backgrounds and we try to honour that. But a sub-quota will introduce too many rigidities,” she warns.

    What the task force recommends
    8% quota for SC, 4% for ST students in private unaided schools.

    Reserving seats for SCs, STs and OBCs in private higher education institutions by moving a bill for it in Parliament.

    Providing safeguards against discrimination in schools and higher education institutions
    Free education for children from SC and ST categories from the primary school to the postgraduate-level.


    dna exclusive: Centre's RTE in itsy bitsy pieces - India - DNA
     
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  3. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    What the fk is this sh!t ??? :angry:

    And What the double fk it this sh!t :mad:
     
  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    This is the crux of the problem, which the government is trying to address:

    Secondly, and please pay attention here, I think you need to work on your vocabulary.
     
  5. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Wait till they introduce OBC quota followed by minority quota

    On the other hand no one is bothered about implementation and its effctiviness
     
  6. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    That's not crux if problem. That's bs. RTE is already for the students who can't have good education. Everything is watching by specs of Caste is unfortunate. How can you force schools to choose students from specific castes ?? And what about that higher education thing ?? It's totally a populist scheme and govt is making it a vote bank scheme,too.
     
  7. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I think the article you posted explains everything. Please read it again.
     
  8. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    @pmaitra What is good education.

    Does every private manage school provides good education???

    Or gov doesnt have money to hire teachers and other no teaching staff , create infra for schools and thats why they are forcing private schools add children from dis advantage group (And even in that one which had declared them/run by minority runed they are exempted )
     
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  9. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    I find the move idiotic. Reservation in reservation, sub-reservation is nothing but an political stunt. How many times we do agree on one thing on reservation that reservation must be based on economy of the person, not the caste. It's a populist scheme so you won't find anything wrong because of your belief. It's okay.
     
  10. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    It's very unfortunate that govt has to set such higher % of quota in schools, that's because we have a lot of poor people in our country, and poor people can't get education, that's the double failure of govt and its policies. I can understand they will have to do something like this to shade their policy failure but why play caste card here,too ??
     
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  11. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    What is good education?
    It is very difficult to answer your first question. We often conflate education with qualification. It appears, but perhaps merely in my eyes, majority of Indians are uneducated, still stuck in their primeval instincts of alpha male syndrome, of trying to grab as much as he can with little regard to others; for some, their Bachelor's and Master's degrees notwithstanding.

    Does every privately managed school provide good education?
    In my opinion, no. Privately managed educational institutions, often, are not meant for imparting education, but for profiteering. We rarely have teachers who are willing to show loving care like the white European David Hare had for brown little street urchins of India. We hate our own kind, and we are more than happy to deny them even their slightest privileges, yet, waste no time in spewing hate that foreigners are coming to convert our tribals.

    I recall, when I was much younger, how one school in our neighbourhood, had started the practice of parent interview, prior to admitting a student for KinderGarten. There were accusations that a person's parentage was playing a role in the decision to get a child admitted.

    Coming back to this thread, this quota for disadvantaged and economically-weaker sections (QDEWS), which is an obligation of these schools, is hitherto, unmonitored, or unregulated. The government wants to ensure that QDEWS are equitably distributed. It could be for obvious reasons, or merely out of coincidence, we have some people opposing this. I am quite convinced, given the strong endo-ethnic and familial mentality that we Indians display even in the 21st century, that a proprietor of a private school could be well motivated to restrict QDEWS seats to students of a background of his choice. Ensuring that there is a diversity in QDEWS is the only way I personally see this being inclusive, not the other way around. People, who are objecting to it with the excuse of making it "inclusive," sound rather unoriginal and dishonest. Congress' other serious faults notwithstanding, they got this one pretty darn right, and kudos to them.

    Why caste is important?
    Today, we have the various private institution who have management quota, and objection to these quotas, or candidates in these quotas seems to be rather muted, as compared to the vile bile spouted in the sophisticated forms of media, such fora and online newspapers. Quote strangely, there is a cavalcade of netizens who throng these very places to explain their position against quotas when it involves caste.

    Conclusion
    Narcissist blindness to our own faults has become the defining character of being Indian, and I struggle find a strain of pride in this utter reality.
     
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  12. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    This government is doing nothing, why do you create a situation that you have to create a law to tackle the situation ?? RTE, Food Security,etc. If government does something to tackle poverty, you don't have to take such steps.
    Agar law banaana hi hai to Bacche paida karne ke against me banao,maana ki wo thoda draconian hoga par kuch to hoga usase, government and society both have failed in spreading awareness regarding family planning. Apne leaders hi itne bacche paida karte hai to log bhi kya kar sakte hai.
     
  13. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    Hah again, ever wondered why do we have so much private schools instead of government ?? Congress was never right , it has done nothing in this regard and now it's using bills to bully the private education sector.
    What's the difference between private and govt's schools ?? The paranoia regarding upper caste students only will get admission in such schools is totally crap. I don't understand howmuch you would fondle the caste instead taking firm steps to tackle the root situation. Reservation is actually forming rift between castes now. The real problem is in rural areas,not in urban areas, and you won't find private schools in rural areas. It's upto government how to reach to them and how to provide education to them.

    The situation will be that SCs and STs will continue to get reservation in throughout the life. And the main problem is, govt also imposing reservation on Post Graduation seats. Let's once accept that reservation in fields like commerce,arts wouldn't affect bright students that much. But the problem is reservation is eating science field. And govt says we have brain drain, they dowhave any right to say this.
     
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  14. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Private education sector should have been bullied right form the beginning. They are, leaving aside a few, mainly degree selling organizations, and would rather have a free hand in how they run their business. Education should never be a business. It should be a duty. That is why regulation, and its importance.

    You have conveniently remained silent on management quota being used to admit substandard students who get to pay huge sums as donation. I suppose you are also one of those who believe that all criticism of quota students should hurled at SC/ST/OBC? I hope I am not coming across as trying to force you into an area of your inconvenience.

    I agree that caste discrimination is limited in urban areas, and predominant in rural area. What I am more interested in is acknowledging that Indians, and I daresay, a majority of them, are stuck up in a feudal mentality, and this mentality can be seen in communities from top to bottom in the caste totem pole.

    Reservation is not eating science field. Reservation or no reservation, without enough funding we will never have good products or innovation. There is a flight of engineers and science graduates out of India, and many choose to stay out of India. They won't return, because, they can help their new homeland and earn money and contribute there, but if they come to India, neither will they earn nor can they benefit India, so their knowledge is wasted anyway. It is rather convenient to blame everything on reservation.
     
  15. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    How can you be so judgemental about me ?? I'm the victim of both idiotic systems of India. One is caste reservation that's you know. 2nd is private institutions.
    You know right now 90000+ indian docs are facing a legal battle against private medical colleges who sell P.G. seats for crores of rupees ?? Case is regarding NEET. Private institution in graduate and post graduate studies is booming right now, same why private schools started to get viral. I don't have any problem with RTE but have problem with govt's policies. Why on god's green earth we are having a situation that for education govt has to make a law?? That's ridiculous on 1st place. Think about it. RTE is not kind of bullying because it's for public interest but essence of caste is plain stunt. I'm not gonna argue this topic to you anymore because how conveniently you rule that I'm inconvenient for discussion related private institutions and their inferior quality production.

    P.S.Private schools (not private colleges) generally shouldn't be accused for producing inferior students they're just fetching money from mordern parents want their children to study in best education hub. What do you think why govt wants to impose RTE on them ??Because government cannot provide best education?? Who's failure is this?? Schools are very much different from private colleges here. I condemn both Reservation and Private colleges(unless they do ethical business and provide education to deserve one). Think about it before being judgemental.

    That doesn't mean you punish students,no ?? I eat with my SC & OBC friends everyday. Honestly I never knew my friend was SC. I came to know after we finished the school and got the admission. What you want to see is actually possible but reservation is not the solution. In fact it increases discrimination sometimes. I know some of my junior got in fight with an SC student and he told him that he didn't deserve to be here at first place. Nobody in college cares about from which caste his colleague is, nobody believes in traditional discrimination to SC/ST. But a new kind of discrimination I saw that day related to reservation.


    How easy for you to say something like they want to contribute foreign nation . I agree we don't have much opportunities in India like US.And who the hell blames everything on reservation ? It's one of the root cause of brain drain and that's true. Ever wondered why US has many Indian docs there ?? And why nobody wants to come back to India ?? Science field and especially branches like Medical and engineering should be treated carefully. Ever thought why India has a lot of Private medical and engineering colleges ?? My cousin was 11 marks behind me but he still couldn't get govt seat.So he took payment seat. But an ST student with 50% got admission in my college which is govt very conveniently. And you say reservation doesn't eat science field ?? What crap. It actually eats every Field but science field is the field which carves the future. What's the point of giving admission to student with 50% in medical who actually doesn't deserve to be in good college of B.Sc ??? I think you didn't face the real hurdles or ignored the hurdles because they were not significant for you. Same thing was with me, I didn't care after I got admission in govt college but now I'm facing the real problem of reservation.

    P.S. what's the point of reservation in P.G. courses when after graduation, person can earn significant amount, at least in medical and engineering field ??
     
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  16. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    Government should really compete with private schools by providing best primary and secondary education in rural as well as urban areas, rural 1st but our government is busy making laws to control private schools. Why ?? Because you are incompetent and private schools are competent ?? What other reason it could be ?? Leftists and Socialist might find this so called great move because it affects PRIVATE schools and I don't mind if our children get good education but we overlook the real problem and failure of government here and that's unfortunate. And now government is trying to make this bill as a Vote Bank politics by adding essance of caste. I don't think government is actually conscious about future of SC/ST otherwise it would have taken steps a lobg time ago.


    Edit : Just clearing a point before somebody comes up with logic of inferior students paying and getting degree from private institutes and accuse me that I overlook that point.
    Schools don't give degrees. It gives education and board gives you result. While private colleges with deemed universities give you degree directly when you pay them handsomely. So don't misunderstand this point. Private schools shouldn't be accused of selling degrees. Selling seats I agree but they don't give you result or degree or whatever you call it. If that's the case, why government would impose RTE on them on 1st place ?? They should be banned immediately for unethical practice if they are selling degrees.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  17. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    No offense intended. My reason of being judgmental was your silence on an important issue I had raised, which you had ignored the first time you responded to me. Now that you have responded, thank you, and please accept my apologies. I have no right to judge you.

    Perhaps. The system in India is not fair.

    It is good to hear.

    It is entirely up to you whether you want to argue with me, or not.

    I do not agree with or appreciate the lame excuses presented by those criticizing the government for proposing sub-quota. I also do not appreciate your constant and annoying reference to Congress. That you did not include Narendra Modi in this discussion is a relief, but that is perhaps because the BJP has not come out openly against this proposal.

    Private colleges and schools are essentially the same, when they are doing it primarily for business purposes. Acceptance of donation is not something that differentiates schools and colleges. You are asking me why the government wants to impose RTE. Would you not rather ask why the government is trying to introduce a sub-quota system? If that is you question, then the answer has already been provided, in this very thread.

    I apologize for being judgmental about you, but I offer no apology for being judgmental about private education institutes, be they colleges or schools that indulge in revenue generation in the name of education.

    Please explain what you mean by punishing and how it is relevant to the sub-quota system.

    Who you eat with is not relevant.

    Ok.

    This has happened with me as well, and I suppose many others as well.

    Now, what are we trying to achieve by discussing this?

    I'd rather they have reservation for all castes, instead of having GC seats open for RC candidates. I am against removal of reservation now and in the foreseeable future.

    You cannot make everyone happy.

    There are many people who don't deserve to be in many places, but we don't live in a perfect world.

    I have said earlier, reservation is unfair, and it comes in the backdrop of even more unfair past.

    Sure, we may or may not have been responsible, but by virtue of heredity, we are indirect beneficiaries, and it does require courage and honesty to admit that. Not many of us are capable of doing it.

    A foreign nation where a white man shows far more respect to a brown man is dearer to me than a nation where a brown upper caste man ill treats yet another brown lower caste man.

    Yes, call me a traitor, so what?

    Thanks.

    Please read again: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...centres-rte-itsy-bitsy-pieces.html#post746891


    Given the number of general category engineers were are churning out every year, are we able to properly harness their capabilities? Do we have enough research facilities? Do we have enough funding for research projects? If your answer is yes to any of this, could you please explain why so many people are going out of India?

    It's not just about doctors, but about scientists, looking beyond mere programmers.

    Would you?

    I have nothing against your cousin. If what he did is legal, I ain't complaining.

    Ok, it happens, we all know that. So what? Is it absolutely impossible that he, being ST, deliberately was given less marks? In a country where dalits are raped and murdered, such subtle discrimination isn't entirely impossible, don't you think?

    What do you mean by "eat" science field? Even with reservation, the number of GC engineers who pass out are not properly harnessed. First harness that, then we can glean over the disadvantages of reservation.

    The point is, the Constituent Assembly decided, to make sure, that the resources of this country were allocated or made available with constitutional guarantee to SC and ST as per their population, given historical discrimination, and later this was extended, with some modifications, to OBC. This is not a discussion on merit, but a constitutional right. That is the point. The same reason why Jinnah wanted a separate Pakistan. Don't keep asking the same question again and again. Do some research.

    Every person goes through ups and down in life. Life in not a bed of roses, and neither is it fair. I have had my own types of problems, but I am glad I have not been ill treated because I come from "that Santhal village." I have seen how Santhal kids were treated.

    No, you are not facing problem of reservation. You are just hating on fellow Indians who are constitutionally guaranteed their share, which they are, by law, entitled to due to their demographics in the territories of the Indian Union, and as per the promise of the Constituent Assembly, in exchange of avoiding a trifurcation of India on Hindu, Muslim, and SC/ST lines. You are simply playing the victim, and I have heard this argument too many times, and am really getting tired of this.

    Man up, and face the world. Fair or unfair, if it is legal, you have to obey it. I did it too.

    Already explained.
     
  18. TrueSpirit

    TrueSpirit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Excellent perspective & precise thread-baring. You are hitting the nail.

    Having said that, this is yet another populist measure (eternal bane of democracies) by a defeatist & diabolical regime. Caste-ism is the ultimate bulwark against our journey towards being an equitable society, for such a society has to be based on meritocracy. Basically, the intent was originally good, but this implementation from a caste-ist angle sidelines that very intent & breeds dis-consent while hampering real social justice for economically weaker sections of the society, who should be the real beneficiaries. Any affirmative action has to based on "economic crtiterion" & then "merit", nothing else.

    Every other classification in implementation of RTE (apart from above-mentioned criterion), is a populist stunt to ensure goons keeps ruling us while we remain a Third world nation. Bravo UPA...........yet another stepping stone to your self-inflicted political suicide in 2014 LS elections.
     
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  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Private schools are not necessarily competent, except in the area of making money.

    Socialism is better than feudalism. I am thinking how Vladimir Lenin made sure that children of serfs could also go to school, those that were once forbidden for them.

    BJP destroyed the Babri Masjid to get Hindu votes. You are living in a democracy, you are part of one vote bank or the other. Keep up this finger pointing though.

    You are overlooking or are simply unaware of many things.

    In the USA, whether you get a 10, 10+2, Bachelors, Masters, or PhD, it is called school. So, when I use school, it does not mean pre-undergrad.

    We'll see to that. Read on.

    And private colleges that are not deemed universities, but are under a university, don't have management quota seats?

    Your point is not at all misunderstood. You are only looking at it partially.

    Actually, and you might not know this, ICSE and ISCE boards look at each students performance in the school tests along with their board exams. There are lot of things you don't know.

    Already answered in my previous response.
     
  20. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    @TrueSpirit, yes, indeed this is aimed at getting votes, but then, it is part and parcel of democracy, and every party does that.
     
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  21. TrueSpirit

    TrueSpirit Senior Member Senior Member

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    @pmaitra

    There's an article in ToI, targeted specifically at your community. You would get to know what community I am talking about once you go through the article.

    The takeaway from this article is: those who are divorced from ground-reality & have the privilege of not experiencing the routine pains & tribulations of resident natives, cannot judge the developments fairly or correctly, since their views are frozen in time. Their tone is condescending without any exception & assume a morally superior position on every issue, thinking they know the best & rest are all ignorant, self-serving folks. Reality is: they are not the only ones serving the nation, if at all.

    My take: Policy-making is best left untouched from the holier-than-thou judgments of diaspora, who do not have to face the brunt of these policies. They are not the stake-holders, no matter what they would like to think of themselves. Rather the ones who would be on the receiving end of these developments, should come out & have their anxieties addressed, by all means at their disposal.
     
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