Catalan referendum: Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'

[Screambowl]

Believe it or not but Barcelona is in Catalonia
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

 

[Tactical Frog]

Don.t worry I too would have a hard time associating big Indian cities with the correct Indian State
I need a quizz to practice !

 

[Tactical Frog]

A new flag , a capital, a football club, and an iconic church, the Sagrada Familia ( weirdest cathedral in Europe) . Looks like Catalonia has all it takes to be a country.

 

[Willy2]

Pathetic piece of shit there "catalundiyan"...commie sh**hole ...f*** you ....silent majority s ignored by commie-leftist media who want spains control piece by piece..it's same phenomenon like they try to use in our country....I want spain to send tank, Typhoons ,destroyer everything and crush this madness.....

 

[salute]

cccp like people are going mad on this .

 

[Rahul Prakash]

Pathetic piece of shit there "catalundiyan"...commie sh**hole ...f*** you ....silent majority s ignored by commie-leftist media who want spains control piece by piece..it's same phenomenon like they try to use in our country....I want spain to send tank, Typhoons ,destroyer everything and crush this madness.....

The EU and western European countries are the biggest communist social justice warrior societies.

This split will only weaken them irrespective of what Catalonian politics is so why not encourage break up.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

I was not a supporter of Catalonia independence but after seeing the brutality of Spanish police against a non-violent crowd including elderly people I can only understand their hopes now. Something deeply wrong with Spanish government mindset.

To be frank, I hate such arguments. You hate something, but support it because of some step which had to be taken.
I have got two points -

- I hate the western SJW activism, for I feel that are fuckin hypocrites. So, basically, I don't give much importance to internal politics of EU, though I strongly feel they should break up.
- Secondly, whatever it is, those with power should come down hard - 'really hard' on those who are trying to divide the country. That's their responsibility to the people who have voted them in, and not to those liberal crying schmucks.

I know that we will come down harder than Spain if any secessionist movement breaks in any part of India.

 

[Screambowl]

India should cultivate it's relations with Kingdom of Espania regarding support on Kashmir

 

[indus]

Europeans have fought two World wars before. Those were also caused due to fragmented Europe. That is why they formed European Union to bury all differences and stay united. Brexit, Catalans are the developements which will take Europe back in time. Plus the Islamic flood has also destabilised Europe. In the long term some conflict may erupt there which may engulf other parts of the world. Another aspect putting pressure on European unity is aggression of nato in eastern europe. It is drawing ex warsaw pact countries towards Russia while some like Poland are getting closer to nato. American interference in Ukraine has also rattled Russia. Future is gonna be hard for Europeans. Many ppl are screwing them simultaneously.

 

[Tactical Frog]

To be frank, I hate such arguments. You hate something, but support it because of some step which had to be taken.
I have got two points -

- I hate the western SJW activism, for I feel that are fuckin hypocrites. So, basically, I don't give much importance to internal politics of EU, though I strongly feel they should break up.
- Secondly, whatever it is, those with power should come down hard - 'really hard' on those who are trying to divide the country. That's their responsibility to the people who have voted them in, and not to those liberal crying schmucks.

I know that we will come down harder than Spain if any secessionist movement breaks in any part of India.

There are plenty of independentists activists in the Western World. If these independentists are not threatenening to use violence to achieve their goals, I think the correct answer from a democracy is to not use violence against them. It only gives strength to their arguments and that is exactly what is happening in Spain. When Catalans opposed to independence will be forced to choose between giving shelter to members of their families or obey the government, my guess is that they will eventually choose to stand by their relatives. So many families must be split on the issue !

Spanish gov has chosen the scenario of the worst by not entering negotiations with Catalan independentists when it was time. A legal referendum with support of central government , just like the one in Scotland , was the way to go. Now the situation is spiralling out of control.

I don’t know enough about Indian context to determine if the same conclusions apply. Every country is different.

 

[salute]

I know that we will come down harder than Spain if any secessionist movement breaks in any part of India.

There are plenty of independentists activists in the Western World. If these independentists are not threatenening to use violence to achieve their goals, I think the correct answer from a democracy is to not use violence against them. It only gives strength to their arguments and that is exactly what is happening in Spain. When Catalans opposed to independence will be forced to choose between giving shelter to members of their families or obey the government, my guess is that they will eventually choose to stand by their relatives. So many families must be split on the issue !

Spanish gov has chosen the scenario of the worst by not entering negotiations with Catalan independentists when it was time. A legal referendum with support of central government , just like the one in Scotland , was the way to go. Now the situation is spiralling out of control.

I don’t know enough about Indian context to determine if the same conclusions apply. Every country is different.

use of force is not possible at india either ,

use of force is only possible if a such movement is done either by just a small faction or an armed revolution faction ,

you are misunderstanding that this demand of catalan referendum is being done by some commies but actually the entire catalan population has asked for it so what would you do tag every person as a commie and shoot them ???

at indian context if an entire population of a state takes upon such movement then no indian political party would dare to use a force to crush them because if any of them do then that would only further enraged that population and then after that consider such political party finished from that state and not only from that particular state but possibly some other states may not get along with that political party because then it would be considered as a dictator party .

 

[Villager]

but actually the entire catalan population has asked for it so what would you do tag every person as a commie and shoot them ???

I read that majority didn't vote. How do you say entire population asked for it?

We can form a view after elections in December.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

There are plenty of independentists activists in the Western World. If these independentists are not threatenening to use violence to achieve their goals, I think the correct answer from a democracy is to not use violence against them. It only gives strength to their arguments and that is exactly what is happening in Spain. When Catalans opposed to independence will be forced to choose between giving shelter to members of their families or obey the government, my guess is that they will eventually choose to stand by their relatives. So many families must be split on the issue !

Spanish gov has chosen the scenario of the worst by not entering negotiations with Catalan independentists when it was time. A legal referendum with support of central government , just like the one in Scotland , was the way to go. Now the situation is spiralling out of control.

I don’t know enough about Indian context to determine if the same conclusions apply. Every country is different.

According to me, trying to liberate a part of the country is equal to threatening violence. You don't have to state it. Perhaps, the Spanish govt. could have done better, but no group can talk about ceding from the better part of the country.

use of force is not possible at india either ,

use of force is only possible if a such movement is done either by just a small faction or an armed revolution faction ,

you are misunderstanding that this demand of catalan referendum is being done by some commies but actually the entire catalan population has asked for it so what would you do tag every person as a commie and shoot them ???

at indian context if an entire population of a state takes upon such movement then no indian political party would dare to use a force to crush them because if any of them do then that would only further enraged that population and then after that consider such political party finished from that state and not only from that particular state but possibly some other states may not get along with that political party because then it would be considered as a dictator party .

You are wrong, buddy. The leaders will do everything in their might to stop it, even if it means stepping on the gas. Let's take for instance, insurgents in Kashmir are spread, and not necessarily concentrated in a particular region, though in some instances they are, the govt. is going all out. Now, we can see your opinion about the govt. being viewed as dictatorial from two prisms -

- Doing nothing and lose forever. Or
- Punch down with might and protect the interests of the Nation irrespective of what the naysayers say and show that you are strong. Almost any govt. would prefer the second.

Now to make myself clear. Violence is always used as the last option, when it is sure that nothing else would work. So, peace talks are totally out of the equation. What has to be done to protect the integrity of the country, will be done.

 

[Willy2]

Europeans have fought two World wars before. Those were also caused due to fragmented Europe. That is why they formed European Union to bury all differences and stay united. Brexit, Catalans are the developements which will take Europe back in time. Plus the Islamic flood has also destabilised Europe. In the long term some conflict may erupt there which may engulf other parts of the world. Another aspect putting pressure on European unity is aggression of nato in eastern europe. It is drawing ex warsaw pact countries towards Russia while some like Poland are getting closer to nato. American interference in Ukraine has also rattled Russia. Future is gonna be hard for Europeans. Many ppl are screwing them simultaneously.

both aren't same , British have different identity for several century, I don't know when was Catalan last time have separate from spain completely , Since the Arab invasion and reconquesta ,Catalonia always a integral part of spain...even before that they are part of visigoth empire and also both were part of roman hispania province...

It's just ego of some ppl who thing as they provide spain much more than other province , so we deserve to be separate ,huhaaaaa ..next day Barcelona would demand separation from Catalonia by same logic....

@salute no!...silent majority is ignored , gangs in catalonia force silent majority to keep themselves inside home....and commie spanish version of cadre like indian brethren aided with self-hating mechanism want this anarchy....

 

[Bengal_Tiger]

1. Catalans are a pragmatic race with a stereotype of being tight or "miserly" with money. "Tight" people do not want to spend much money and even more so do not want to spend much energy or shed blood unless it is really required.

The Catalans, in contrast to the far less numerous Basques, have not waged any violent resistance to the Madrid authorities including during the Franco era.

2. Catalonia has extensive autonomy including in health, education, policing and many other things.

The Catalan language is preserved and will not die out as it is the 9th biggest language in Europe e.g. bigger than Swedish or Danish.

3. Barcelona its main economic centre and capital is majority unionist as is the region as a whole despite the more vocal separatist camp.

4. The Catalan speaking parts of Spain include Catalonia, the Balearic islands, Valencia etc. In the latter two there is no interest in separation and in fact in the Balearic islands there has been an anti-Catalonia boycott of their goods with anger at threats of secession.

The difference between the Catalan-speaking Valencians or Mallorcans is that unlike Catalonia they did not undergo an intense program of indoctrination through an education system specifically undertaking a long-term program of semi-independence or outright independence.

This includes:

- Projecting an image of Catalans being "victims", despite Catalonia being far richer than other parts of Spain.

* How do Catalan separatists say we are too rich for Spain and are funding it, and also Spain is oppressing us? How do Catalan separatists say Spain is oppressing us so much that we are so wealthy?

* How do Catalan separatists then account for the fact many Catalan separatists are third generation migrants from other parts of Spain including Andalusia who now "feel Catalan"? If they were so victimised why has Spain enabled a situation whereby non-Catalans go through a process of Catalanization to the point they hate Spain and ethnic groups who their grandparents were from?

* How do Catalan separatists justify their arrogance and racism including calling Andalusian migrants to Catalonia "changeros", taken from the Polish/Slavic word for "Black" (crna).

Why do Catalan separatists say they are "more European" than other Spaniards, does that mean they are racially superior?

- Re-writing/falsifying Spanish history.

* Trying to ignore the fact that Catalonia has been an integral part of Spain longer than modern India, Bangladesh, the USA, Canada, Australia have been in existence i.e. since Catalonia as part of the kingdom of Aragon saw its monarch married to the Queen of Castile, Isabella i.e. for half a millenia.

- Suppressing education in Spanish for students whose mother-tongue is Spanish.

* This has been going on in an intense program of Catalanization and denying mother-language education to those students whose mother-language is Spanish, who according to some (not sure) are the majority in Catalonia.



5. The Catalan separatist claim that they subsidize Spain is silly as every rich region in any state can claim the same. It is also nonsensical since at the same time they paradoxically claim to want to be part of the EU where richer states such as Germany and the UK subsidize poorer states such as Greece or Bulgaria, as a trade-off for other benefits and an ideological belief in a shared common European heritage.

If Catalan separatists want to be good Europeans and believe in pan-European unity why do they want to disown poorer Spaniards and say they are racially inferior, "less European".


What will happen?

Whilst the PP government of Rajoy are corrupt and are crypto-Francoists and are no angels and are definitely a major part of the problem and have been since 2007, the Catalan separatist agenda with its radical leftist components (leftists in early 20th century Catalonia at times even burnt churches) has gone too far.

They've claimed that an independent Catalonia would become an Iberian Scandinavia, a "Denmark of the south", and now with at least 700 companies re-locating their official HQs outside of Catalonia, this false claim is being exposed.

The silent majority have started to learn how to mobilise and express themselves and realised that they face the danger of being removed from their country by separatist bullies.

This is probably the biggest thing and most novel development to come out of this crisis.

In the long run I think unionism will fundamentally grow stronger in Catalonia as for too long the bullying of separatists has gone too far, ignored and unchecked. Now with Catalan-speakers in other regions boycotting Catalonian goods, mass demonstrations for unity in Barcelona, almost a 1,000 companies changing head offices the separatist agenda has been exposed for its weakness and unfairness.

 

[Tactical Frog]

@Bengal_Tiger

Strong arguments there. But you should not underestimate the strength of the catalan aspiration for independence . It has deep roots in the troubled history of Spain in the 19 th and 20 th centuries and won’t die easily . For one thing, Catalans were mostly on the Republican side in the 1936-1939 war and Franco later suppressed use of catalan language in the medias.

It is funny that I have to play devil’ s advocate for independentists as a Frenchman. Surely nothing to win from a Catalan independence looking at all our own potential problems with Corsican islanders, Basque speakers and even Britons of Britanny ( who happen to be more Brits than nowadays Brits hehe), if Catalonia finds a path to independence.

 

[YagamiLight]

Pathetic piece of shit there "catalundiyan"...commie sh**hole ...f*** you ....silent majority s ignored by commie-leftist media who want spains control piece by piece..it's same phenomenon like they try to use in our country....I want spain to send tank, Typhoons ,destroyer everything and crush this madness.....

Why do you care so much about a bunch of white trash killing each other off? It will probably be good for the whole Humanity if the westerner trash went back to killing each other instead of the world like they used to historically

 

[YagamiLight]

Am I the only one who is enjoying the slow demise of EU? Disintegration of EU and hence the drying up of the funds for our commies from EU is a great thing to hope from an Indian POV. So I suggest the nationalists of this forum to not support Spain in this mess

 

[Bengal_Tiger]

@Bengal_Tiger

Strong arguments there. But you should not underestimate the strength of the catalan aspiration for independence . It has deep roots in the troubled history of Spain in the 19 th and 20 th centuries and won’t die easily . For one thing, Catalans were mostly on the Republican side in the 1936-1939 war and Franco later suppressed use of catalan language in the medias.

It is funny that I have to play devil’ s advocate for independentists as a Frenchman. Surely nothing to win from a Catalan independence looking at all our own potential problems with Corsican islanders, Basque speakers and even Britons of Britanny ( who happen to be more Brits than nowadays Brits hehe), if Catalonia finds a path to independence.

Merci mon ami,

1. Yes, Catalonia does have a strong leftist tradition and there was Francoist oppression of Catalan culture, but he sought to mitigate resentment to his regime from Catalans by helping them to develop economically, so as much as they might be loathe to say it, some of the much-vaunted economic prosperity the Catalans love to boast about is partly due to Franco himself.

2. The suppression of Catalan culture has been stopped, fixed and Catalan culture is flourishing but now if anything the suppression is going towards Spanish. Yes, I acknowledge that there can be times when there is some hostility to Catalan language in other parts of Spain e.g. its lack of being taught in other parts of Spain for instance in universities. The main point however is there is no threat to the survival of the Catalan language.

3. If Catalonia were to get independence (which I doubt it ever will) not only does it have an impact on France regarding Basques, Bretons and Corsicans, there is also the issue of the sister Gallic languages of French in France e.g. Provencal and Occitan.

How much will they be allowed to flourish to the extent that they do not pose a threat to the integrity of the French state as Catalan nationalism is doing that to the unity of the Spanish state?

Traditional French republicanism was very centralist with strict enforcement of the dialect of the Ile de Paris all over the country. A policy so successful that even the ethnically Flemish residents of northern France could care less about Flemish and are proud Frenchmen.

This however led to the virtual disappearance of certain languages such as Provencal and Occitan which are now slowly experiencing a revival (I am no expert on France).

4. Going back to Catalonia, the whole Catalan separatist attempt has received little support from most in the world especially if you read online comments from people across the globe.

Organising a dubious "referendum" which was illegal (as it did not get the required amount of votes in the Catalan parliament from Catalan legislators) and then claiming that 90% of the 43% alleged to have voted is a basis for independence is nonsense.

However if you see it in the wider context of the general intransigence PP of Rajoy since 2007 you could understand some of the frustration of the Catalan separatists.

 

[Kshithij]

There is a good suspicion that Catalon referendum was stoked and funded by Arab oil money. The organisation of "Women against trump" was also led by an Arab woman who funded for the clothes and rallies. It was not the women themselves who got those masks and costumes of Vagina to march. It was sponsored by Arab money - tens of millions of dollars. The unlimited media attack against Trump was also using Arab money.

Similarly, the JNU protest, BHU protest etc were also Arab sponsored. The Maratha reservation rally was organised by muslim NGOs and several muslim members of them were even seen distributing refreshment and water. The Bihar elections were also funded via Hawala. Demonetisation and crackdown on shell companies is being done exactly for these reasons. Even then, the gold smuggling from Arab countries continue unabated.

One can expect that most o the subversive activities that are being done today is done by Arab oil money. CIA is losing relevance quickly. ISI-Arab intelligence have grown very very powerful.