Can India achieve Great Power Status ?

Known_Unknown

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This great power you bow to called china became one by being nothing more than an opportunist during the
Cold War why not do the same and be an opportunist in the new cold war between USA and China?If we are
Going to play second fiddle like you want might as well do it with USA a real superpower rather than with another
Second rate third world power china.
Unfortunately, in 3 decades, China's economy will by 60% larger than that of the US. It's military already poses a threat to US presence in the Far East, and US generals have admitted that in case of a conflict over Taiwan, the US will not be able to impose it's will on China. In the next few decades, China will surpass the US economically, militarily, and politically. There's no reason for India to ally herself with the losing side. Besides, the 2nd more important reason is that China is India's neighbour. In case of a conflict with China, Uncle Sam will not be able to intervene fast enough (assuming they are willing to risk conflict with China) to save India from Chinese wrath.

In geopolitics, it is wise to maintain good relations with your neighbours rather than fight with them and depend on a far away country to save your ass in case of war.
 

Known_Unknown

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Wow, I seem to have stirred quite a hornet's nest here :rofl:

But seriously, I'm not German, and I'm not trolling, I've come to this view after many months and years of arguments, research and thinking. India is simply not cut out to be a world power. It never was one throughout history except during the reign of the Guptas and Mauyras, and it will never be one in the future.

Historically, the biggest, most powerful and most influential empires in the past 500-600 years or so have been the Anglo Saxons, Russians and Chinese. Besides them, even the Germans and the French have been very influential due to the virtues of those people: hard work, honesty, perseverence and most importantly, a results-oriented strategy. Indians are by and large fatalists, and do not have the stomach for a fight. The British ruled India for 200 years through alliances with local rulers, who were content to live and let live as long as they were well looked after.

Due to the large number of sectarian, ethnic, religious and caste divisions within India, the country can never be united enough to work towards a common good. We see examples of this in the in-fighting among the coalition at the centre, and the inability of any leader to chart a path towards progress without banking on some vote bank or another.

So I've come out of lalaland, and I'm hoping to lead others towards the light as well. :namaste:
 

Known_Unknown

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India has the capacity to take on both countries together and still last longer than a month. Just because we buy weapons from outside means nothing. What matters is how we are able to use our strategic resources. According to CIA, we are currently the 4th greatest military power on the planet.
Seriously? Dude cmon, you know as much as I do that in a war with Pakistan, India only has about 4 to 5 weeks of fighting reserves. And I mean ammunition, spare parts, fuel and other logistics necessary for war. What makes you think we can take on France and Russia in a full fledged war if we can't even beat Pakistan?

Did you know that during WWII, the Russians took 30 million casualties and still won the war? At the end of the war, the Red Army was larger in manpower and materials than all of the Allied armies COMBINED!

In 2 years we will overtake Germany. Kinda nice isn't it? In terms of PPP, we already overtook Japan, let alone Germany.
In terms of PPP. It will takes decades or a century for India to match the per capita income, and hence the prosperity of Germans.
 

LurkerBaba

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But seriously, I'm not German, and I'm not trolling, I've come to this view after many months and years of arguments, research and thinking. India is simply not cut out to be a world power. It never was one throughout history except during the reign of the Guptas and Mauyras, and it will never be one in the future.
...
...

Due to the large number of sectarian, ethnic, religious and caste divisions within India, the country can never be united enough to work towards a common good. We see examples of this in the in-fighting among the coalition at the centre, and the inability of any leader to chart a path towards progress without banking on some vote bank or another.
Partially agree. Diversity is a curse, not a gift. Most countries developed and industrialized under autocratic rule. 'Unity in diversity' and 'world's biggest democracy' is just Kool Aid.
 

W.G.Ewald

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India should submit to the superiority of the Chinese and concede to their domination in the border issue. Unlike China, India is not a great power and will never be one. Instead of indulging in a ruinous arms race which will bankrupt India even while providing not a modicum of security, just giving up to China's demands will at least prevent India's humiliation if war breaks out.

If India really seeks to carve a place for itself, be secure and prosper, then she should enter China's camp and happily play 2nd fiddle. This alone will guarantee peace in Asia and Asian global domination in the 21st century.
 

LurkerBaba

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^

The first post was trollish, but I agree with a lot of his assertions.

Why was the Mauryan Empire a 'great power' ?

1. It followed a ruthless foreign policy (Arthashastra)
2. They had a common script and language throughout the Empire (Magadhi Brahmi and Prakrit)
3. They enforced a common culture via Buddhism Evangelism.

India presently has too many nations within our nation.
 
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Unfortunately, in 3 decades, China's economy will by 60% larger than that of the US. It's military already poses a threat to US presence in the Far East, and US generals have admitted that in case of a conflict over Taiwan, the US will not be able to impose it's will on China. In the next few decades, China will surpass the US economically, militarily, and politically. There's no reason for India to ally herself with the losing side. Besides, the 2nd more important reason is that China is India's neighbour. In case of a conflict with China, Uncle Sam will not be able to intervene fast enough (assuming they are willing to risk conflict with China) to save India from Chinese wrath.

In geopolitics, it is wise to maintain good relations with your neighbours rather than fight with them and depend on a far away country to save your ass in case of war.
2 simple facts about China economic comparision
1)75% of Chinese exports go to USA and 1 company Walmart
2) Chinese are not paid with money but with debt worthless paper -bonds

Chinese have 2 trillion in US debt holdings. I have never heard of an economy becoming #1 holding worthless paper?
USA will probably never pay this debt to China ever.There is no market for US debt holdings.

military comparison
China has 30 ICBM's
USA has thousands many that are MIRV'd 7-10 warheads each

naval comparision
USA has been a blue water navy for 60+ years
China is a brown water navy.

hardly any contest.

It is still better to side with USA in any conflict against china and alliance would be ideal
After USA defeats China with India as an ally. China will probably be broken up into many
parts and India would negotiate good terms afterwards in the division and reclaiming our
rightful territory like Tibet and Aksai Chin.
 
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p2prada

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Seriously? Dude cmon, you know as much as I do that in a war with Pakistan, India only has about 4 to 5 weeks of fighting reserves. And I mean ammunition, spare parts, fuel and other logistics necessary for war. What makes you think we can take on France and Russia in a full fledged war if we can't even beat Pakistan?
You are mistaken about France and Russia's capabilities. India has much more than 4-5 weeks of fighting capability and even that is plenty. Other than that, France barely managed to pull off the Libyan war. Russia could barely contain Georgia and did worse in Chechnya. Neither country is capable of facing us.

Did you know that during WWII, the Russians took 30 million casualties and still won the war? At the end of the war, the Red Army was larger in manpower and materials than all of the Allied armies COMBINED!
Times were different then and so was the political situation. Today's war is pretty much a war of attrition. Wars will be quick and decisive and strategic reserves are available in plenty.

In terms of PPP. It will takes decades or a century for India to match the per capita income, and hence the prosperity of Germans.
Our military is much more capable than the German military even with our level of economy. A military's functioning is not dependent on per capita income, only GDP. The ability to recruit manpower, build infrastructure and materials is what determines a capable military.

China's sh!tty per capita income but capable military is proof of that.
 

Mr.Ryu

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In this modern world there will be no Super power or Great Power One will always need other no more single power center i guess :sad:
 
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If there is a blockade of the Malacca straits Chinese war capacity would probably be 3-6 weeks maximum using
any oil reserves they have; with their economy crumbling during this period.
 
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p2prada

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There's no reason for India to ally herself with the losing side.
The way I see it, we don't have to ally with anybody.

In case of a conflict with China, Uncle Sam will not be able to intervene fast enough (assuming they are willing to risk conflict with China) to save India from Chinese wrath.
Uncle Sam will sit it out. India will take care of India. We are not a Banana Republic.
 
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Uncle Sam will sit it out. India will take care of India. We are not a Banana Republic.
More likely India will sit it out and watch China get it 's ass kicked. History repeats itself and
conflicts always takes place between #1 and #2 and #3 watches and waits to become the new #2.
 

sky

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Seriously? Dude cmon, you know as much as I do that in a war with Pakistan, India only has about 4 to 5 weeks of fighting reserves. And I mean ammunition, spare parts, fuel and other logistics necessary for war. What makes you think we can take on France and Russia in a full fledged war if we can't even beat Pakistan?

Did you know that during WWII, the Russians took 30 million casualties and still won the war? At the end of the war, the Red Army was larger in manpower and materials than all of the Allied armies COMBINED!



In terms of PPP. It will takes decades or a century for India to match the per capita income, and hence the prosperity of Germans.
I thought India did not only beat pakistan but capture tens of thousands of them . you forget 1971 even if it was only east pakistan...
 

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This post is from Known_Unknown under the following thread to remind him of his plans in 2011 which have taken a dive for worst.

What would you do if you were elected PM of India?

Consider this hypothetical scenario: You are elected PM of India with a solid majority. You have your own party, which is neither Congress nor BJP. Your party consists of millions of grass roots workers as well as kar-sevaks, some of them armed with pistols, swords and other easily available weapons. The nation now looks to you as their leader and treats you as a demi-god (a la Nehru or Gandhi). You have all the opportunity in the world to fix everything that's wrong with the country. What would your plan be?

Here's what I would do:

Ban all other political parties. Amend the Constitution to declare myself PM and President for an indefinite term. Concentrate all national resources for building up the national economy as well as the strength and capacity of the armed forces. Plan to increase the strength of the army from 1.2m to 12m, with a 60,000 tank mechanized force and 30,000 pcs of artillery within a decade. Increase AF strength to 100 squadrons. Replace most of the Navy's surface fleet with indigenous SSN's and SSBN's. Privatise the DRDO and all other arms research bodies, and force them to come up with indigenous artillery, guns, howitzers, RPG's, and other basic weapons as fast as they can. Secretly accelerate the production of the Agni V and commence design and manufacture of the Surya series of ICBM's to deter potential superpowers from interference. Also massively increase the amount of nukes.

At the same time, shed the pacifist pussy image and break all ties with Pakistan. Deny all overflights, ban all types of trade, deny visas to any and all Pakistanis except a minimal amount of diplomatic staff. Start harassing Pakis by playing with the water levels in the dams in Kashmir. Re-instate RAW's covert ops division, and conduct targeted assassinations of Paki armed forces personnel and politicians suspected of having links to terrorist attacks inside India.

Invade, occupy and annex Nepal, Bhutan and Sri Lanka. These don't have large populations and can be easily controlled. Annexation of Nepal and Bhutan will solve India's "chicken neck" problem, and makes Bangladesh irrelevant for the purposes of connecting the NE.

Since a sustained and long-term war effort will depend on having continued access to oil, securing this will be the most important task. Coupled with an increased focus on exploration and exploitation of India's own oil reserves (Rajasthan could contribute up to 40% of India's total oil production by 2014 - Money - DNA), pacts will have to be signed with Iran and Russia to ensure sufficiency.

Once these steps have been taken, a gradual build-up of tension on the border with Pakistan will be started. Ratchet up the rhetoric about recovering PoK, and convince the Pakis with action. If terrorists engage in gun battles with armymen across the LoC, crossborder raids will be carried out to eliminate them. In case Paki armed forces open fire, pummel them with thousands of arty pcs and MBRL's. The Pakis must be convinced that India is on the verge of launching an all-out invasion to destroy them completely. When this happens, convene a secret meeting with Pakis where an ultimatum will be served to hand over PoK or face extinction.

The Paki Army, seeing the huge difference in relative military strengths will choose survival over extinction. If they do refuse, start preparing for all-out war. Launch a pre-emptive missile strike with 200 nukes targeting the Paki capital, all their major nuke research facilities, storage sites, military cantonments, storage sites and weapons manufacturing facilities. At the same time, mount a massive air raid to destroy all their main air bases and aircraft hangars, while simultaneously blockading Karachi and Gwadar ports. Prepare a three-pronged ground invasion: one towards Karachi, one towards Lahore and one towards Islamabad. The Paki Army will have no time to react. Within a week, Pakiland will be under Indian control. Sindh, PoK, and Balochistan will be annexed. NWFP will be merged with Afghanistan. As for Pakjabiland, it will deserve special treatment. It will be surrounded on 3 sides by India, so Pakjabiland will be made an Indian protectorate (a la West/East Germany), a buffer state between the mad tribes of the Pakhtuns and India.

Once this is accomplished, part 2: Mission China (for next time).

To Known_unknown:

This was your plan for the future course of India, if you were PM of India in October 2011 so what happened between this post and new post in which you want India to surrender to China's whims. Have you lost all the motivation to help India in reaching the goals set by us. You did motivate lot of us to come up with our own ideas and I included you in our cabinet whereas I am the PM.

We are still waiting for part 2 of your vision.

I had to do this for one and only one reason because your comments really enraged me to a point I cannot explain. I do not surrender and fight to the last man. I will try to reply to each and every post of your on this thread at a later date.
 
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Known_Unknown

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If there is a blockade of the Malacca straits Chinese war capacity would probably be 3-6 weeks maximum using
any oil reserves they have; with their economy crumbling during this period.
India does not have the wherewithal to block the Malacca Straits. China has over 50 submarines that can sink the Indian Navy if they tried to block Malacca. In addition, China can attack India all across the LoAC. Indian formations all along the Chinese border are defensive in nature and are not meant for offensive action inside Tibet. Logistics is a nightmare on the Indian side of the border, while on the Chinese side, they can easily transport troops and supplies over the Tibetan plateau using their much superior infrastructure.

Besides, what do you think the Gwadar port is for?
 

Known_Unknown

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You are mistaken about France and Russia's capabilities. India has much more than 4-5 weeks of fighting capability and even that is plenty. Other than that, France barely managed to pull off the Libyan war. Russia could barely contain Georgia and did worse in Chechnya. Neither country is capable of facing us.
No, you are mistaken. Libya hardly qualifies as a full scale war. France merely sent a couple of squadrons of jets to hit the Libyan forces. Russia *won* the Georgian conflict, and Chechnya is much more stable than Kashmir.

Besides, both these countries don't even have to send troops all the way to India. In the event of a full scale war, either country could vaporize all the major Indian cities using their nuke mounted ICBM's, since India has no missiles that would reach Paris or Moscow.

As for warfighting reserves I was wrong, the Indian army does not have 4-6 weeks of reserves, but barely 2 days worth:

Indian army running short of ammunition: General VK Singh - India News - IBNLive

India is a paper tiger, it's time to acknowledge reality.

Times were different then and so was the political situation. Today's war is pretty much a war of attrition. Wars will be quick and decisive and strategic reserves are available in plenty.
Huh?? Wars of "attrition" are not "quick and decisive" by definition.

Our military is much more capable than the German military even with our level of economy. A military's functioning is not dependent on per capita income, only GDP. The ability to recruit manpower, build infrastructure and materials is what determines a capable military.
Germany's military is a bad example to compare India with. Germany is restricted by treaty to have only minimal levels of armed forces:

Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are no such restrictions on India. Yet, even 6 decades after independence, India has not even been able to equip its army with indigenous guns and ammunition. Pathetic state of affairs.

China's sh!tty per capita income but capable military is proof of that.
China has a capable military because China indigenously produces the vast majority of armaments that its forces are equipped with. It doesn't buy billions of dollars of planes, tanks or artillery pieces through foreign tender. They makes their own guns, ammunition and jets, and even export them to other countries.

India is a third world hand-me-down country, incapable of indigenous design, development or production. And so will it remain for the forseable future until it eventually breaks up.
 
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Known_Unknown

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More likely India will sit it out and watch China get it 's ass kicked. History repeats itself and
conflicts always takes place between #1 and #2 and #3 watches and waits to become the new #2.
History repeats itself? So you mean the US will get it's arse kicked by the Chinese like in the Korean War?
 

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