Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at stake?

[civfanatic]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Actually, the Chinese are equally adept at realpolitik compared to the Americans. They backed the Vietnamese when they were fighting the Americans, and then backed the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese after the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam. They had no love for the Vietnamese or even for fellow communists; they just wanted to see the Americans defeated and expelled from Indochina, which they considered to be the PRC's sphere of influence. Their whole game of gilli-danda with Pakistan is the same story, except in the South Asian context.

 

[Yusuf]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

First Mac Arthur was sacked by then POTUS Truman after he indicated that he would use nukes. Also Soviet response would also have to be considered.

Well everything remains in the realm of speculation. But the fact of the matter is, Tibetans didn't help themselves!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Actually it was the Vietnamese communists who kicked Han ass. I think PRC supported Khmer Rouge instead.

There was an understanding with the North Vietnamese and China that Hanoi would not fall to USA.

The most immediate need was for anti-aircraft artillery, units to counter the overwhelming American air power over North Vietnam. Ho would request Chinese AAA units during a meeting with Mao in May of 1965 and PLA forces would begin flowing into North Vietnam in July of 1965 to help defend the capital of Hanoi and the transportation network to include railroad lines and bridges.[50] This movement of troops from China was not lost on the U.S. as reported in a Top Secret CIA Special Report which identified seven major PLA units in North Vietnam to include the 67th AAA Division, and an estimated 25,000 to 45,000 Chinese combat troops total. [51] Recent Chinese sources indicate that this PLA AAA Division did indeed operate in the western area of North Vietnam. [52] In addition to AAA forces the PLA also provided missiles, artillery and logistics, railroad, engineer and mine sweeping forces. These forces would not only man AAA sites but would also build and repair Vietnamese infrastructure damaged or destroyed by U.S. airstrikes. [53] Such units would have quite a bit of repair work to do given that there would be more than a million tons of bombs dropped by U.S. aircraft upon North Vietnam from 1965 to 1972. [54] The Second Vietnam War would drag on for years as a sort of operational stalemate existed in the skies over North Vietnam. The U.S. could and did bomb the North at will, but the sheer numbers of Chinese forces, to include a total of 16 AAA divisions serving with a peak strength of 170,000 troops attained in 1967, would ensure that a high price would be paid by U.S. pilots with targets often rapidly rebuilt after destruction. [55] Chinese engineering and logistics units would perform impressive feats of construction throughout their stay in North Vietnam effectively keeping the transportation network functioning.


http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/20thcentury/articles/chinesesupport.aspx

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Also, have you guys considered the possibility that the West wanted China to occupy Tibet, and intentionally did nothing?

 

[Razor]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

The U.S. would have lost Western Europe along with most of Asia to the Soviets if it had went ahead and nuked China.

I doubt it would lose W. Europe, but yes the Soviets would have gotten a stronger hold in Asia.

 

[Das ka das]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Those are two different wars.

It followed close on the heels of the Vietnam War.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Also, have you guys considered the possibility that the West wanted China to occupy Tibet, and intentionally did nothing?

This is true the kissinger even joked about how it when he met the Chinese
(how easy it was)

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

I doubt it would lose W. Europe, but yes the Soviets would have gotten a stronger hold in Asia.

I mean if hostilities actually broke out between the U.S. and the Soviet Union in the 50s, it would lose Western Europe. France and Britain had yet to recover from the devastation of WWII, and the Soviets were more than capable of overrunning Western Europe in a matter of weeks.

 

[Das ka das]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Also, have you guys considered the possibility that the West wanted China to occupy Tibet, and intentionally did nothing?

Never thought of that but seems very plausible.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

US might have been interested in Tibet if India showed Pak style support but Nehru
was staunchly in the Soviet camp.

 

[Yusuf]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Also, have you guys considered the possibility that the West wanted China to occupy Tibet, and intentionally did nothing?

No I don't think so. CIA was actively supporting Tibet.

 

[Razor]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

I mean if hostilities actually broke out between the U.S. and the Soviet Union in the 50s, it would lose Western Europe. France and Britain had yet to recover from the devastation of WWII, and the Soviets were more than capable of overrunning Western Europe in a matter of weeks.

Oh I thought you were talkin about support of W. European nations, my bad.
Yeah, your scenario is a possibility.

 

[Yusuf]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

US might have been interested in Tibet if India showed Pak style support but Nehru
was staunchly in the Soviet camp.

Situation in the late fifties and early sixties was different. JFK was pro India. India could have worked with the US. India's bad relations with the US was lack of strategic thinking by Nehru. History tells us that we were in tr camp that LOST in the end. And now we are trying to forge a relationship with the very same country we were earlier opposed to. Imagine if we were allied with them right from the 50s

 

[Razor]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Also, have you guys considered the possibility that the West wanted China to occupy Tibet, and intentionally did nothing?

I doubt this. Why would US want PRC to occupy Tibet.
One reason might be to create tensions between India and PRC, but it doesn't add up properly.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

The Chinese were conducting systematic genocide and did not give CIA enough time
to make any gains. Tibet was also very remote without any help from neighboring
countries.

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

No I don't think so. CIA was actively supporting Tibet.

The CIA wanted to keep the Tibet issue alive by ensuring the creation of a Tibetan government-in-exile, but they were hardly interested in actually maintaining Tibet's independence. If America was serious about Tibet, it could have done much more.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Situation in the late fifties and early sixties was different. JFK was pro India. India could have worked with the US. India's bad relations with the US was lack of strategic thinking by Nehru. History tells us that we were in tr camp that LOST in the end. And now we are trying to forge a relationship with the very same country we were earlier opposed to. Imagine if we were allied with them right from the 50s

This was one of a long list of Nehru blunders. JFK in 1962 china war asked
if India needed an airlift arms why it was refused by Nehru along with warplanes is a mystery ?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

The CIA wanted to keep the Tibet issue alive by ensuring the creation of a Tibetan government-in-exile, but they were hardly interested in actually maintaining Tibet's independence. If America was serious about Tibet, it could have done much more.

CIA could not careless it was a tradeoff China opens up breaks away from Russia
and they can keep Tibet. India was already in Russia camp if an alliance of China/Russia/india
gained a foothold it would be a threat to Western hegemony (35%+ of world population)

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

I doubt this. Why would US want PRC to occupy Tibet.
One reason might be to create tensions between India and PRC, but it doesn't add up properly.

Yes, to create tensions between India and PRC, and to prevent the formation of a pan-Asian bloc headed by the Soviet Union. For a period in the 50s, both India and China had close relations with the USSR (closer than they had with the U.S.) and this was viewed as a threat.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Can a pacifist religious belief be changed when survival is at sta

Yes, to create tensions between India and PRC, and to prevent the formation of a pan-Asian bloc headed by the Soviet Union. For a period in the 50s, both India and China had close relations with the USSR (closer than they had with the U.S.) and this was viewed as a threat.

The SCO in the future can be a bigger threat India and Pakistan may both join with
Russia and China leading it (Screwing Kissingers terrible idea of keeping China away from Russia)