Can 4 Su-30MKI supported by GCI defend Kashmir against Pakistani Aggression?

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by ZOOM, Nov 4, 2010.

  1. ZOOM

    ZOOM Founding Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    10
    Since last so many days, we are seeing lots of unwanted troubles in Jammu and Kashmir state of India. There is no denying to the fact that in all these troubles, primary hand belongs to Pakistan which is continously fomenting terror exports from its soil. At the same time, China is looking to get lot more assertive then ever before to play a game of spoil of sports by denying Indian status to J&K.

    Under such dire circumstances, we can have another Kargil Like episode in J&K as Pakistani Govt is losing its control on its entire armed forces and terror group that it has breed in all these years. Chances are that some high ranking Pakistani Army Generals together with its Airforce support must be looking to invade some undefended part of J&K. Such scenario cannot be ruled out and we have always taken by surprise in 1965 and 1999 when uninvited invasion created a danger to the integrity of our nation.

    So my question is, Can 4 Su-30MKI supported by GCI defend Kashmir against Pakistani Aggression?, my question is highly relevant given our lack of vigilance to deal with such situation.
     
  2.  
  3. shaka

    shaka Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    22
    ^^^ This is a possibility considering the unstable nature of Pakistan. A limited war with India will join various forces within there country. They will forget some of their internal differences. Definitely worth a try for them considering Indian leadership is weak, they dont think it(GOI) will retaliate because of their nukes. Remember they are already going south. A dog suffering from rabies is likely to bite.

    Why 4 MKIs, expect atleast a squadron. Lets see, if they try Kargil again and send Pakistani army regulars wearing non military clothing :happy_2:. We will see MKI in action along with M2000, later is logical choice because of valuable experience gained last time. This time MKI will carry out air dominance role instead Mig29 which will be patrolling border in Punjab region from airbases there. These planes are actually based there. You can expect 3 flights of MKI (4x3=12 planes) in air. No, Pak fighters wont come close. IAF will bomb there ground forces. Most likely army will capture these regions back. But will loose soldiers like last time. You can expect Indian intelligence to be better certainly than last time. This time Indian public opinion will be very angry. But I dont expect Indian Officials to do anything other than complaining from roof tops that we have been raped again. If China gives Pakistan moral support, you can expect forces going for more FMS type purchases from foreign vendors especially US of A.

    Another scenario is they use air power. It depends what there objective will be if they enter Indian airspace. What planes they are using? Are there aircraft supported by AWACS? MKI is great air defence platform with Bars-R77 combo. Indian SAMs in kashmir region are point defence in nature. Lets assume they use their best asset F-16 Block52. Other planes they have, many don't have BVR. If they do a surprise attack on Indian tactical locations/installations. This will be interesting. Act of War in any lingo. I know IAF has stationed MKIs at Srinagar AFS in past, dont know current situation. Primarily it hosts Mig-21 bisons. Bisons (BVR capable) can safely hold their ground against F-16 if these outnumber F-16s 2:1 IMO (Just a guess based on my knowledge/ there are many factors, wont go into these). It will definitely/ultimately come to WVR due to distances involved, which are not large. And you can positively assume IAF would have thought about these scenarios. Otherwise MKI squadron would have been permantly based at Srinagar or another nearby airbase already. Anyway Mig 29 or MKI will join the theater within few hours. F-16 can certainly wreck havoc depending on their numbers. Lets say if 20 or so F-16s cross LOC they will certainly bomb some places. But high value Indian assets will be protected, and it will be difficult for PAF to penetrate these but its not impossible.
     
  4. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,247
    Likes Received:
    68
    ^^^^
    Would you think the arm-chair generals would make the F-16 flying over the Kashmir, no way
     
  5. shaka

    shaka Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    22
    Sorry didnt get your point.
     
  6. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    I think he is talking about all out attack on Kashmir using F16 . Say we have 4 Sukhoi on air and they have something like 10 F16 . what will be the outcome in that scenario?
     
  7. smartindian

    smartindian Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Mysore, Karnataka, India
    when we are buying 270+ su-30 mki , why only 4 su-30 mki this is non sense , we are also buying mmrca .fgfa from 2018 to defend our country
     
  8. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,247
    Likes Received:
    68
    If Vipers are flying over Kashmir mean then IA would have reached the Lahore, simply an impossible scenario.

    Still, When comparing the scenario, Vipers cant be taken that lightly with the electronics that is present in it. But Still the lack of spares and the part will be the difference between the IAF and PAF.
     
  9. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,247
    Likes Received:
    68
    LH, you got it wrongly i think. what he meant is "Will the quite few flankers be able to ground the PAF?" in case of a conflict.
     
  10. shaka

    shaka Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    22
    Its an interesting scenario. Assuming Su-30 are in Indian air space (on patrol) and F-16s are detected (still not in Indian air space). Both MKIs and 16s will try to play according to their strengths. Rules of engagement will be interesting. Will MKI fire considering F16 are still in Pak airspace? Will they wait for them to cross LOC properly? PAF will have advantage because they are aggressors and can simply withdraw from fight or fire first if they detect MKIs. MKI has big RCS and is not difficult to detect for F-16 Block52 at BVR distances. BVR shots will be fired from both sides. It depends on pilots, jamming equipment, etc from there on. 1 on 1 MKI should be able to shoot down Blk52 at BVR. MKI is simply a better platform with better maneuverability, radar performance. 4 vs 10, anything is possible. Remember MKI will be only carrying AAMs, since on intercepting role and will be more agile. While F-16 will be carrying heavy bombs, AAMs and maybe fuel tanks. IMO F-16s still have a chance to shoot down all MKIs and still couple of F-16 left, provided nobody withdraws from the fight. Just my opinion.
     
  11. shaka

    shaka Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    22
    Lionheart, in case of a surprise attack like I said in my above post it is highly possible that 4 MKIs meet 10 F-16s. But even if 4 MKIs are shot down and F-16 are still on their way, they have to deal with S-125 SAM and maybe even AKASH SAM and further fighter reinforcements from IAF. I think it will be a one way flight for Pak fighters. Whether they achieve their target in between by bombing their target is another matter.
     
  12. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    You forgot the fact that Sukhoi will be able to detect them much earlier . They can fight BVR and run away from scene to save their A** .
    scenario will be a lot diffrent once Awacs comes into picture but without AWACS Su30 will be able to inflict heavy damage.
     
  13. smartindian

    smartindian Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Mysore, Karnataka, India
    no i got the point .why iaf will use minimum force in the situation of war. it will use maximum force. and effectively reduce the efficiency of the enemy so that war can be won with minimum time frame with less human lass in our side and maximum damage to the enemy
     
  14. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    You want to send your entire airforce in air at once . You need to use them 24/7 and they have some overhaul period after each flight to its impossible to use entire airforce strength at one particular time . Also it will be a surprise attack.
     
  15. smartindian

    smartindian Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Mysore, Karnataka, India
    i never said entire air force, i said maximun force available
     
  16. blade

    blade Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    KOLKATA
    Which Fighter Plane is the No:1 in the Indian Subcontinent in the BVR(Beyond Visual Range) arena?


    Official Specs says Zhuk-ME on board Mig-29K & Mig-29SMT upgrade has a detection range of 120km for a 5m2 target. Hence:
    For 20m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 170km
    For 15m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 158km
    For 12.5m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 151km
    For 10m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 143km
    For 8.5m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 137km
    For 3m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 106km
    For 1m2, Zhuk-ME detection range is 80km


    -----------------

    Official Specs says N-011M BARS onboard Su-30MKI has a detection range of 140km for a standard Russian RCS, in this case 5m2. Indian fan boys claim that some N-011m BARS radars variants have a high power output of 7kw(the original one has only 4-5kw), and hence a higher range than the 140km given above. The precise range for this version is not known. Whether this radar is inservice with the Indian Air force is also not known. And even if it is with the IAF, how many 7kw N-011M BARS radar equipped Su-30MKI there are is impossible to determine. Hence under these circumstances, only an official brochure can be taken into account. Official brochure, says ZHUK-MSFE with a 8kw power output, has a range of 180km for a 5m2 target. ZHUK-MSFE is the latest Russian radar, while BARS is several years older. Also BARS output is lesser than Zhuk-MSFE. Hence it's safe to assume 4-5kw BARS variant's(or even the 7kw range) range isn't going to be higher than ZHUK-MSFE.

    140km detection range for 5m2 target. Hence:
    For 8.5m2, BARS detection range is 160km
    For 3m2, BARS detection range is 123km
    For 1.5m2, BARS detection range is 104km
    For 1m2, BARS detection range is 94km

    -----------------

    Official Specs says KLJ-7 onboard JF-17 has a detection range of 105km for a 5m2 target. However, PAF isn't too fond of his radar eventhough it has the same range as a APG-68(V)9 on F-16block52 & RDY-2 on Mirage-2000-5/-9(both radars according to official specs), & less range than RC-400 radar. Even in its most powerful form(meaning the version with the largest antennae, which the JF-17 cannot house due to its relatively small nose), the RC400 has 20% less range than the RDY radar. RC-400 is the radar which the PAF are planning to equip their second block of JF-17. Why they are dumping a better radar(according to official specs) and going for a lesser ranged one is fueling speculation that KLJ-7's true specs is lower than publicized. In any case, lets see what its ranges are:

    105km detection range for 5m2 Target. Hence:
    For 20m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 149km
    For 15m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 138km
    For 12.5m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 132km
    For 10m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 125km
    For 8.5m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 120km
    For 3m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 92km
    For 1m2, KLJ-7 & APG-68(V)9 detection range is 70km

    -----------------

    RCS figures are confidential. However unofficially there are some figures available on the internet. They are:

    Clean(meaning payload/ammunition not loaded) F-16 after Block 30, which includes block 52 - 1.2m2
    Clean Mig-29B & Mig-29SMT - 5m2
    Clean Su-30MKI - 10m2 to 15m2

    JF-17 without RAM, its RCS would be more than a Clean F-16 block 52 which has RAM & is planform. F-16 block25 & the previous variants, which are planform in construction but without RAM, were said to have an RCS of 3m2-5m2, when clean. JF-17's TWR isn't very high, and adding RAM would mean increasing the weight. So we can expect little or no RAM on JF-17. Also, JF-17 isn't very planform in construction but has DSI and is a smaller aircraft. So lets consider a favorable assumption that the RCS of a clean JF-17 is as low as 2.5m2.
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article6.html

    Su-30MKI's RCS when carrying full 8000kgs AG load is said to be 20m2.
    India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter

    Lets take Su-30MKI's clean RCS as 11.5m2, higher than a standard Su-27, due to canards & the extra seat.

    Mig-29K's RCS is officially confirmed to be 4-5 times less than a old Mig-29, due to composites & RAM. So taking an average value between 4 & 5 = 4.5. When the unofficial RCS of 5 is divided by 4.5 we get an RCS of 1.11.
    "Considerable increase of flight range is also gained due to increased capacity of drop fuel tanks and in-flight refueling capability (with the possibility to refuel from the aircraft of the same type). Due to special coatings Mig-29K radar reflecting surface is 4-5 times smaller than of basic MiG-29."
    - RAC MiG

    JF-17 cannot carry larger payloads. Its load carrying capacity is only 7900lbs or less than 3600kgs. This compared to Su-30MKIs 8000kgs, Mig-29k's 5500kgs, & F-16's 7500kgs.
    Empty weight of the aircraft is 14520lbs for JF-17, 19700lbs for F-16 Block 52, 25573 for Mig-29SMT, 28550lbs for Mig-29K & 40565lbs for Su-30MKI.

    ----

    Eventhough Mig-29 can carry less load than a F-16 or Su-30, lets consider a uniform RCS increase for comparison purposes.

    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29SMT as 8.5m2, 3.5m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Mig-29K as 5m2, 3.9m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded F-16 Block 52 as 5m2, 3.8m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded JF-17 as 5m2, 2.5m2 more.
    Take the RCS of a Air-Air loaded Su-30MKI as 15m2, 3.5m2 more.

    With these RCS values and the above radar ranges, you can now see which fighters will be detecting their opponent fighters first... and first tracking which almost linearly follows detection.

    Mig-29K will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 158km
    Mig-29SMT at 137km
    F-16 Block 52 at 120km
    JF-17 at 120km

    F-16 Block 52 will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 138km
    Mig-29SMT at 120km
    JF-17 at 105km
    Mig-29K at 105km

    Su-30MKI will detect:
    Mig-29SMT at 160km
    F-16 Block 52 at 140km
    JF-17 at 140km
    Mig-29K at 140km

    Mig-29SMT will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 158km
    F-16 Block 52 at 120km
    JF-17 at 120km
    Mig-29K at 120km

    JF-17 will detect:
    Su-30MKI at 138km
    Mig-29SMT at 120km
    F-16 Block52 at 105km
    Mig-29K at 105km

    Mig-29K comes out as the clear winner. If provided with a long range BVR weapon which could match its powerful radar, Mig-29K navalised version will come out as the BVR winner.
    Su-30MKI follows the Mig-29K Naval Fulcrum.
    Mig-29SMT, F-16 Block-52 & JF-17 are tied at third.

    ----------------
    References:


    Zhuk-ME (Mig-29 Upgrade & Mig-29K)
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 120 km
    http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf

    N-011 BARS (Su-30MKI)
    Can Track- 15 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km
    http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf
    http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su-15TM PICTURES & DOCS/Overscan's guide to Russian Military Avionics.htm

    Kopyo-21I
    Can Track- 8 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 57 km
    http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf

    Kopyo-M
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
    http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craf...aft_99-102.pdf
    (Mig-21 Bison has Kopyo radar. Some bisons are equipped with Kopyo-21I and some with Kopyo-M.)

    Grifo-S
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 93 km
    http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/f...ts/GRIFO_S.pdf

    KLJ-7
    Can Track- 10 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 2 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 105 km
    http://i30.tinypic.com/2r70vgw.jpg

    BARS-29 (Same MKI radar but antennae adapted to Mig-29's smaller nose)
    Can Track- 15 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 120 km
    http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/2...s29back2wp.jpg
    http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/8...29front9zl.jpg

    Irbis-E (Su-35BM)
    Can Track - 30 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
    Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 400 km
    Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km
    Irbis / Irbis-E
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html
    http://www.niip.ru/modules/Downloads...006/2006_5.pdf

    APG-77 (F-22A)
    Max Track for 1 sqm RCS - 200 km
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

    APG-81 (F-35)
    Max Track for 1 sqm RCS - 160 km
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

    Captor-M (EF-2000)
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 185 km
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html

    Zaslon-M (Mig-31)
    Max Detection for 10 ~ 15 sqm RCS - 400 km
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...start-180.html

    RBE-2 (Rafale)
    Can Track - 40 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Track for 3 sqm RCS - 100 km
    Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 130-140 km
    Dassault Rafale Avionics

    RDY-2 (mirage 2000-5/-9)
    Can Track - 24 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

    RC-400 (smaller radar based on RDY-2)
    Can Track - 24 Targets
    Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 70 km

    APG-68 (V)9 (on F-16 Block 52)
    Max Track for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km
    http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...-start-30.html

    APG-66(V)2 (on F-16 MLU)
    Max Detection for 6 sqm RCS - 74 km
    APG-66 Declassified
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2010
    Bornubus likes this.
  17. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    The Bars was originally an X-band Pulse-Doppler radar developed for the Su-27. In its original N011 form the radar used an electronically scanned slotted planar antenna but with the experience gained from the development of the N007 Zaslon and in an effort to improve performance the antenna design was changed to a multi-channel Passive electronically scanned array (PESA) resulting in the N011M Bars (Snow Leopard). The design of the N011M bars antenna like the earlier N007 antenna consists of two separate electronically controlled arrays, an X-band radar and a L-band transponder with a total weight of 100 kg and a diameter of 960 mm [1]. The radar has a peak power output of 4-5 kW [2] and is capable of positioning beams in 400 microseconds [1], a huge advantage over mechanically scanned radar. The Bars radar can be fixed in position to give a scanning sector of +/-70 degrees in azimuth and +/-45 degrees in elevation [3], the radar can also be mounted on electromechanical drives to improve scan coverage. The N011M supports digital signal processing using 3 processors with 16 MB of both static and flash memory [1].


    N011M has a search range of 350 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air to air mode. Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once.[4] The N011M can use a number of short range and speed search modes and is capable of identifying the type and number of multiple targets. The Bars radar is compatible with R-77 and R-27 radar guided missiles providing both illumination and data-link guidance as well as the R-73 IR guided missile [3].
    In the air to surface mode the radar is capable of detecting ground and naval based moving targets, determining their location and maintaining a track on two surface targets at once [1]. The N011 is capable of detecting a tank sized target to a range maximum range of 50 km and a destroyer sized target to a range of 150 km [1]. Bars also features a mapping mode using either real beam, doppler beam sharpening or Synthetic aperture radar with a maximum resolution of 10 meters [1]. The Kh-31 anti-radiation missile is also compatible with the radar.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

    Flanker Radars in Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  18. youngindian

    youngindian Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,360
    Likes Received:
    73
  19. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    RCS of Sukhoi 30 MKI is 3 to 5 m² not 11.5 . if RCS itself is doubtful then entire calculation is wrong. so that articles credibility is at doubt..I have posted another reply about range of BARS. Its about 300 kms.
    http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Sukhoi_Su-30_-_Su-30_MKI/id/5492761
     
  20. death.by.chocolate

    death.by.chocolate Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2009
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    67
    Detection range is greatly reduced when inbound F-16's use terrain masking, low altitude ingress in terrain avoidance mode. Block-52's are able to fly fast and low, assisted by the APG-68's ability to map the terrain and avoid terrain features at high speeds. In look down mode the Su-30 MKI radar will use doppler shift to isolate fast low flying objects, the F-16 can employ a technique called beaming to avoid detection. This is one scenario which can be employed to neutralize the MKI's radar advantage and shorten its reaction time considerably.The effectiveness of guided air to air missiles such as the R-77 is reduced due to the difficulties of picking the target against ground clutter. Quick reaction surface to air missiles will be more effective in this scenario.

    The Su-30 MKI is possibly the best air superiority fighter in Asia, but that doesn't mean it is without weakness. All systems have weakness that can be exploited by a clever adversary.
     
  21. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    What are the weaknesses of the PAF's F-16 Blk52s?
     

Share This Page