Call for Indo-US security pact with Canberra.

Yusuf

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Jay,

It all boils down to use of that intel from Aussie Listening post for India. The thing is, if there is any NATO like alliance where a war on Aus will drag india in as far as China is concerned, will India be willing to get involved in such a conflct? Well in time we might, but i am only trying to think like a babu in Delhi.
 

Tshering22

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Looks like we won't get it anytime soon, but then I am of the opinion that we should keep trying. If they agree to sell their Uranium, I would definitely take it.
China virtually runs Australia mate. I know that you're being rational and for the wider economic interest but I doubt that Chinese will let go of Australia this easily. Due to Australia's location, it is only giving superficial statements about this "alliance". The current government in Australia is more reasonable than that stupid Rudd's government so hopefully there's some chance of good friendship with them, but a military alliance would not be safe enough for us.

Let's be frank here. Military alliance isn't easy here. Because of following reasons:

- US and Australia are miles away.

- Neither of them have the capacity to fight against China in today's circumstances.

- While USA is strong enough to withstand China and defeat it, due to economic ties it won't and cannot.

- Australians are total novices in war and we might have to end up saving them instead. When it comes to a war between us and Chinese, it will ONLY be us who will have to fight for us.

- If either of them backs down last moment and we're depending on something critical on them, we'd be screwed.

Strategic partnership is a better option rather than any alliance that binds us more than either of them. Not just because of external factors but internal spinelessness and babugiri which is the biggest obstacle to our military as such. Without military controlling the Ministry of Defense, it is pointless.
 

JayATL

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Jay, the reason Australia wont sell uranium to India as stated by them is that India is not an NPT signatory thereby implying that we are a proliferation concern and hence a direct / indirect security threat to Australia. So from Australia's perspective, how can they have a strategic alliance with a nation that poses a security threat to them?



Really ....:lol:
Have you taken time to read the stuff you post?
Let me understand this --- your critical thinking says that your explanation of what aussies feel i.e. India is a security risk because of not signing NPT - supersedes what aussies actually say ( their words) of wanting a strategic partnership, right?

Aus: "India, we are open to a tri-lateral pact"
trackwhack "No, you see us a security risk"
Aus: "Err no- we are open to tri lateral/ bi-lateral security pacts and have never stated you are security risk / concern, in fact quite the opposite
trackwhack" No, you are not- you see us a security risk because I say so dammit!

btw- I post the most brilliant, well thought out posts here. You see a foreign policy through amateur lens; my opinions are reflected/ similar to what your govt foreign policy thinkers agree with too...
 
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JayATL

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Jay,

It all boils down to use of that intel from Aussie Listening post for India. The thing is, if there is any NATO like alliance where a war on Aus will drag india in as far as China is concerned, will India be willing to get involved in such a conflct? Well in time we might, but i am only trying to think like a babu in Delhi.
No no this is not a NATO like pact, I would ask that you read the OP article ( refesher) to negate your concern...because Aus falls already under a NATO pact i.e. if there is a war with AUS, Nato and US will cover the war- no need for india to get involved.

This is absolutely not even close to a NATO like pact. US is the keyplayer here in terms of actionable defense ( if need be)of/for the " other " at risk country. But before there is war- the reason why this is proposed - is to ensure that economic zones are kept free of any surprises from China.

China does not have to go to war- and won't, but they can block or ( cut off cables like they did) , harass any economic expansion in south china sea. something they have showed an affinity for... without crossing the " war " threshold.
 
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JayATL

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China virtually runs Australia mate. I know that you're being rational and for the wider economic interest but I doubt that Chinese will let go of Australia this easily. Due to Australia's location, it is only giving superficial statements about this "alliance". The current government in Australia is more reasonable than that stupid Rudd's government so hopefully there's some chance of good friendship with them, but a military alliance would not be safe enough for us.

Let's be frank here. Military alliance isn't easy here. Because of following reasons:

- US and Australia are miles away.

- Neither of them have the capacity to fight against China in today's circumstances.

- While USA is strong enough to withstand China and defeat it, due to economic ties it won't and cannot.

- Australians are total novices in war and we might have to end up saving them instead. When it comes to a war between us and Chinese, it will ONLY be us who will have to fight for us.

- If either of them backs down last moment and we're depending on something critical on them, we'd be screwed.

Strategic partnership is a better option rather than any alliance that binds us more than either of them. Not just because of external factors but internal spinelessness and babugiri which is the biggest obstacle to our military as such. Without military controlling the Ministry of Defense, it is pointless.
where you getting all of these assumptions from? do me and yourself a favour please read this http://cfhs.in/articles/usast.html
 

Tshering22

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where you getting all of these assumptions from? do me and yourself a favour please read this US-AUSTRALIAN SECURITY TIES
Let's start with some theories here:

1- Australia's location: As per its geographic location, it faces absolutely no threat. During the Cold War, there was always a Red boogeyman around. Not anymore.

2- Time period 2007-2009: During this time when USA was successively running into one recessive stonewall after another, coupled with the ongoing WOT, Australia was the only westernized country that survived the onslaught of recession. Do you know what saved their necks? Single-handed Chinese trade that gained massively during that period. That period not only saw Rudd reaching out to China more than usual, but a phenomenal degree of Sino-Australian friendship and commercial relationship that even got your government uncomfortable. This was voiced not by some closet debaters online but well known economic sources worldwide. A search through the beloved Google will further enlighten you regarding the same.

3- US objectives: If you're politically intelligible which I am sure you are since your comments bank on rationality rather than emotions, then I am going to tell you something which has been the ground reality of formation of modern countries since the last century's beginning all over the world. See the following statement:

Both of these nations have a similar history of Anglo-Saxon immigration into a vast untamed continent, where they had to fight an incessant battle for possession and control of land and resources with the native people.

This is probably the only thing that is common between you and the Australians.

Now look at this statement:

In other words Australians and Americans share the concepts of democracy, freedom and human rights.

As I said, since you're politically intelligible, I'm assuming you'd know that these sort of statements are just meant for public consumption. Surely you'd not be naive enough to actually take these fancy words on face values. Because of this was the case then US would be on collision course against half the southeast Asia and entire Middle East as well as entire Central Asia. The reality: It is not.

The simple reason there are ties between Australia and you lot is that both of you share population race-migration history, have developed from the same set of concepts that both evolved and hence possess the same mindset: trade, resource utilization and ensuring establishment of a virtual "system" wherever you guys are stationed.

I am not saying it is a bad thing. No.. in fact that is pretty smart.

The following validates my theory even further:

It was in the backdrop of rapid Japanese military expansion in South East Asia and the vicinity of South Pacific that Australia felt need to look at the United States as the saviour, Prime Minister John Curtin, infact, made an appeal on 27 December 1941 that his country would "look to America" for security of Australia and the region "without any inhibitions of any kind". This appeal was made at a time when the British protective shield, operating for more than a century and a half, appeared inadequate and a militarily vulnerable Australia was faced with the threat of a possible Japanese attack.

At first the boogeyman was Japan, then it turned out to be the Soviet Union-backed Southeastern nations. When all that is over, what benefit does Australia have to have you around? Don't tell me China is going to be a boogeyman today. Today's China is nowhere close to what the Soviet Union, Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany were in their times of power.

Australian diplomacy centered round an attempt to find 'a powerful and willing friend' to replace Great Britain

Further evidence. And you of all must know that there are no political friends. In crude terms, Australia simply has no reason to continue this relation of security other than you being their shop for swanky weapons. As China further reaches out to Australia, and if the current administration is persuaded enough, China will replace you. One thing you need to know about the Reds of China is that they don't occupy something that will be met with a deadly resistance. If they could simply capture the Australian supplier list, that is in today's economic terms sufficient enough to be called "colonized".
The only reason they're unable to do that is because of the untimely departure of Rudd from politics. However, this is a concern not voiced by me but by well known sources that as I mentioned, a Google search would take you through.
 

JayATL

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Let's start with some theories here:

1- Australia's location: As per its geographic location, it faces absolutely no threat. During the Cold War, there was always a Red boogeyman around. Not anymore.

2- Time period 2007-2009: During this time when USA was successively running into one recessive stonewall after another, coupled with the ongoing WOT, Australia was the only westernized country that survived the onslaught of recession. Do you know what saved their necks? Single-handed Chinese trade that gained massively during that period. That period not only saw Rudd reaching out to China more than usual, but a phenomenal degree of Sino-Australian friendship and commercial relationship that even got your government uncomfortable. This was voiced not by some closet debaters online but well known economic sources worldwide. A search through the beloved Google will further enlighten you regarding the same.

3- US objectives: If you're politically intelligible which I am sure you are since your comments bank on rationality rather than emotions, then I am going to tell you something which has been the ground reality of formation of modern countries since the last century's beginning all over the world. See the following statement:

Both of these nations have a similar history of Anglo-Saxon immigration into a vast untamed continent, where they had to fight an incessant battle for possession and control of land and resources with the native people.

This is probably the only thing that is common between you and the Australians.

Now look at this statement:

In other words Australians and Americans share the concepts of democracy, freedom and human rights.

As I said, since you're politically intelligible, I'm assuming you'd know that these sort of statements are just meant for public consumption. Surely you'd not be naive enough to actually take these fancy words on face values. Because of this was the case then US would be on collision course against half the southeast Asia and entire Middle East as well as entire Central Asia. The reality: It is not.

The simple reason there are ties between Australia and you lot is that both of you share population race-migration history, have developed from the same set of concepts that both evolved and hence possess the same mindset: trade, resource utilization and ensuring establishment of a virtual "system" wherever you guys are stationed.

I am not saying it is a bad thing. No.. in fact that is pretty smart.

The following validates my theory even further:

It was in the backdrop of rapid Japanese military expansion in South East Asia and the vicinity of South Pacific that Australia felt need to look at the United States as the saviour, Prime Minister John Curtin, infact, made an appeal on 27 December 1941 that his country would "look to America" for security of Australia and the region "without any inhibitions of any kind". This appeal was made at a time when the British protective shield, operating for more than a century and a half, appeared inadequate and a militarily vulnerable Australia was faced with the threat of a possible Japanese attack.

At first the boogeyman was Japan, then it turned out to be the Soviet Union-backed Southeastern nations. When all that is over, what benefit does Australia have to have you around? Don't tell me China is going to be a boogeyman today. Today's China is nowhere close to what the Soviet Union, Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany were in their times of power.

Australian diplomacy centered round an attempt to find 'a powerful and willing friend' to replace Great Britain

Further evidence. And you of all must know that there are no political friends. In crude terms, Australia simply has no reason to continue this relation of security other than you being their shop for swanky weapons. As China further reaches out to Australia, and if the current administration is persuaded enough, China will replace you. One thing you need to know about the Reds of China is that they don't occupy something that will be met with a deadly resistance. If they could simply capture the Australian supplier list, that is in today's economic terms sufficient enough to be called "colonized".
The only reason they're unable to do that is because of the untimely departure of Rudd from politics. However, this is a concern not voiced by me but by well known sources that as I mentioned, a Google search would take you through.
I'm getting a bit confused with your arguments because you are swaying from reasons due to race migration to claim that auz's economy was saved because of china ( I'd like to see / read some proof of this in terms of data, study you can provide) to " reaching out of the US was old strategy of Auz and not one of current thought.


Bottom line if I understood you- it was because you think Australia itself is, through its actions, giving you the impression that it is beholden to China , yeah? is this what I stated true?

If so ---


Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd a week or so ago to the Oxford Business Alumni Forum. Rudd addressed how Australia would navigate its way through the potential scenario of a "dual superpower world".

In a truly fascinating section Rudd listed what he saw as China's strategic ambitions in the next decade. Rudd cited various of China's aims, but among them was one that government ministers seldom advert to in public. Like Richardson, Rudd was admirably straightforward.

He said: "China's strategic objective is over time to reduce US military influence and, as a consequence, US alliances in East Asia and the Pacific."

Later in the speech Rudd identified a key Australian objective as maintaining and strengthening our alliance with the US. Rudd is certainly right in his analysis and he serves the cause of public debate by putting it on the record. But he also makes it clear that China's strategic objective -- diminishing US alliances and the US military presence in the region -- is in direct contradiction of Australia's strategic objectives.

This self-evidently does not mean that the closest economic co-operation and political dialogue between Canberra and Beijing is not possible. But it does show up in stark relief that Canberra and Beijing are not only operating towards different ends but contradictory ends.

This means that Rudd has concluded, rightly in my view, that China's massive military build-up is destined to go on for a long time and to reach extremely lethal capabilities to project military force over long distances.

No wonder Rudd wants the US military to stay in the region. No wonder as PM he committed to doubling our submarine fleet from six to 12. And no wonder Richardson concludes we cannot live securely in this region with our present paltry defence effort
Btw Australia's largest trading partner is Japan... not china. Japan, US new zealand , with china as no 2 ( 3 out 4 being US and its allies). I highly doubt having the no2 spot and collectively being so much smaller that US and its allies = China owns australia
 
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Tshering22

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Btw Australia's largest trading partner is Japan... not china. Japan, US new zealand , with china as no 2 ( 3 out 4 being US and its allies). I highly doubt having the no2 spot and collectively being so much smaller that US and its allies = China owns australia
Japan is a weakening nation; stagnant economy, population crisis, calamities after calamities striking them and they're going into reverse. Though I wish they bounce back, but they're not in a good shape. Are you telling me that NZ holds better clout over Australian mindset than Chinese? Don't think so mate. Australia is a resource-exporting country; Chinese are the new resource gobblers.

I am not saying that US is vanishing into thin air but simply that with Reds rising, they'd be instrumental in changing Australia's perception, especially if we see a couple more douchebags like Rudd in the near future. Though current regime is in damage control to some extent.
 

JayATL

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Japan is a weakening nation; stagnant economy, population crisis, calamities after calamities striking them and they're going into reverse. Though I wish they bounce back, but they're not in a good shape. Are you telling me that NZ holds better clout over Australian mindset than Chinese? Don't think so mate. Australia is a resource-exporting country; Chinese are the new resource gobblers.

I am not saying that US is vanishing into thin air but simply that with Reds rising, they'd be instrumental in changing Australia's perception, especially if we see a couple more douchebags like Rudd in the near future. Though current regime is in damage control to some extent.
there was a very wise US politican who said you have a right to your set of opinions but NOT to your set of FACTS...

you are trying to write checks, bro- your body can't cash :) Fact is- you are citing your opinion that I have showed from the horses mouth to be quite different. even with china overtaking as no1 trade partner...
 
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