Buying at home

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by AVERAGE INDIAN, Nov 27, 2013.

  1. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    Addressing the Combined Commanders' Conference recently, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh bluntly warned the Indian military that the growth slowdown would lead to curbs on new purchases. He said, "While we must take into account the capabilities of our adversaries, we have to plan our long-term acquisition on the assumption of limited resource availability." This is an important and timely warning. It is certainly clear that the military's insistence on foreign purchases has led to expectations that are unaffordable. Consider just the Indian Air Force (IAF): it is understrength at the moment, with only 36 out of 39.5 fighter squadrons ready. Further depletions to the number of squadrons are likely when various ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s are removed from service in the next few years. But the IAF, in order to make up the deficit, has a shopping list that might total $100 billion (approximately Rs 6 lakh crore) in the next 10 to 15 years. This is clearly unaffordable. The army is in a similar position.

    However, the unfortunate fact is that the civilians at the defence ministry have not controlled the free-spending instincts of the military and warned them against the idea of expensive foreign purchases. The prime minister urged "the defence ministry and the armed forces, as also the DRDO [Defence Research and Development Organisation], to build on this experience and urgently review the different Task Force reports that our government has initiated with a view to achieving a higher index of indigenous capability in military inventory production". This admonition is overdue. Indigenisation is the only way out. It is worth noting that this dovetails with a time when the rupee is weakening, which means that imports have become more expensive; and when the government has woken up to the crisis in Indian manufacturing and is pushing various incentives for investment in the sector, particularly in high-tech enterprises. Military development has historically, across countries and decades, created clusters of excellence in manufacturing and research that are exactly the kind of thing that New Delhi's policies are supposed to make happen. Thus, working with the private sector to increase defence production in India satisfies not just defence but also economic imperatives.

    While the current government in recent years corrected its poor record in terms of spending on defence, the spigot of funding is about to be turned off thanks to the slowdown. Meanwhile, some at the defence ministry are unhappy at the thought of the defence public sector enterprises being pushed aside by increasing private sector participation; and the military does not believe in anything but foreign purchases. Put together, this momentum means that nothing will change without a serious push towards the private sector. Over the past year, the defence ministry released a sanitised version of its long-term integrated perspective plan in order to give private companies a sense of the military's requirement. But too few actionable items were on the list. To get the private sector moving, the ministry must realise that funding support for risky and expensive research and assured orders for the weaponry so produced will be essential. This will cause defence public sector undertakings and the military to scream blue murder, and will require the defence ministry, in turn, to take a few risks and deal with the inevitable accusations of favouritism. But that is the cost of indigenisation - and of defence readiness in an economic downturn.

    Buying at home | Business Standard
     
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  3. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Buying 300 or tejas mk-2 in place of 120 RAFALEs for the same price will give a much better air defense capacity for IAF.

    but IAF will order only 80 odd mk-2s .Why?

    In the same way IA could easily have ordered 500 or so Arjun mk-1s which are battle ready. Bit it has ordered 250 odd T-90s in which crew men can not stand the shearing heat of indian summer and faint .

    Both of these are heavy forex draining deals that will actually end up harming India's defense capabilities in respective fields besides pushing the rupee further down the depths.
     
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  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I agree with the Arjun part. Regarding Tejas, I am not really sure, and that is because Tejas is just about to be ready, but not ready yet.
     
  5. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    this is how our armed forces are when the place an order for new procurement MINUS THE NAVY FROM THIS

    It's like going to a tailor ordering a suit, not choosing the fabric, not choosing the styling, not letting the tailor take measurements but instead provide them oneself (and change it 3 times over) and coming to the fitting and complaining that this wasn't what you wanted

    added to that DRDO and HAL is like a tailor where you place an order for your kid and you get the finished product back when he turns into a man

    when it come's to project management both army / IAF and or HAL/DRDO/other's is like two faces of the same coin
     
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  6. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    See, whatever the measurements given by our IA and IAF to tailors in ADA and CVRDE.

    the end result in both tejas and Arjun are world class products with world class specs and world class reliability.

    You know tejas mk-2 and Arjun mk-2 are three or four products all rolled into one.

    you can visit the Arjun thread where army has revised it's GSQrs four times for Arjun till mk-2 and CVRDE has achieved success with every time. the weight issue is a completely bogus argument from import lobby on Arjun hell bent on ordering thousands of T-90 tanks. The Arjun weight class leopard and abrams are operating all over the world with support equipment.

    Same goes for tejas mk-2 it is slated to have mach-2 higher top speed than RAAFLE showing it's better aerodynamic improvement compared to MK-1,

    See most of the changes on Tejas mk-2 are in fact improvements suggested by CEILMAC to further improve the aerodynamic performance of the mk-1 airframe .

    The lengthening of the air frame will give lesser wave drag when the fighter is in trans sonic regime and also the composite percentage is slated to increase to close to 60 percent along with twenty percent more powerful engine with more reliability than any other engine in IAF.

    The higher thrust to weight ratio will enable better AOA and better G pulling capability than the mk-1 improving it's STR and ITR even further. Mk-2 is developed with no ambiguity that surrounded the mk-1 whose FSED phase -two was the sudden demand from IAF for longer range heavier air to air WVRs and BVRs.

    They are also cleverly concealing the fact which was highlighted by DRDO that both t-90 and Arjun will need the support of same bridging equipment to cross british era 40 ton bridge as T-90 too weighs close to 50 ton.

    Only withering T-72s are able to cross the 40 ton class british era bridges. but T-72 is completely irrelevant to modern tank battle era.

    Reliability part is even more important , because winning war is having a reliable product made in home with reliable tech with no fear of naval blockade or no fear about the future bets on the foreign policy position of seller nations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  7. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    agreed but as we know both army and iaf they like phoren products
     
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Manmohan is talking through his hat!

    Forget about long term acquisition, we don't even have the short term requirements.

    Of course, indegenisation is the answer. But who is to do it and by what time? Manmohan Maharaj?

    If the country cannot afford it, let us then lie down and enjoy it! ;)

    Guess which bunch of idiots have made this sorry state come to pass?

    Look within, Manmohan Maharaj!
     
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  9. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    See most of the changes on Tejas mk-2 are in fact improvements suggested by CEILMAC to further improve the aerodynamic performance of the mk-1 airframe .

    The lengthening of the air frame will give lesser wave drag when the fighter is in trans sonic regime and also the composite percentage is slated to increase to close to 60 percent along with twenty percent more powerful engine with more reliability than any other engine in IAF.

    The higher thrust to weight ratio will enable better AOA and better G pulling capability than the mk-1 improving it's STR and ITR even further. Mk-2 is developed with no ambiguity that surrounded the mk-1 whose FSED phase -two was the sudden demand from IAF for longer range heavier air to air WVR and BVR missiles .

    And it is slated to have even better internal fuel fractions than the mk-1. Also the behavior of the air frame in mk-1 testing was 95 percent close to the predictions done as per CFD FEA(Computational Fluid Dynamics- Finite Element Analysis ) which was done at the start of the design phase.

    And with mk-1 production in full stream the assembling of mk2 for testing and validation will not be as time consuming as a ready pool of support infra already exists. As both mk-1 and mk-2 will share many components as they both have common design philosophy.

    Also there will be better private section participation as Tata Advanced materials were already contracted for many composite parts of the 40 mk-1 airframe . If an order for 200 plus is given to tejas mk-2 it will herald a new era of private sector participation in idian defense sector. As ADA is keen to outsource as many parts from private sector to keeps the costs low.


    The non availability of this dedicated production line and ADA's dependence on HAL for making each and every product for tejas mk-1 from other production lines that are not tuned to the tejas mk-1 needs was one of the reason for the very slow addition of test flight fighters .

    Also most of the 250 requests for actions from IAF which came on board tejas program only after 2006(the tejas story --by AM Philip raj Kumar ) were all carried out on tejas mk-1 itself in time consuming redesign and validation in test flights.Only a dozen or so are set aside for the tejas mk-2.

    So there won't be many time consuming requests for actions from IAF which will delay the tejas mk-2 program like the one for mk-1.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  10. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Also most of the 250 requests for actions from IAF which came on board tejas program only after 2006(the tejas story --by AM Philip raj Kumar ) were all carried out on tejas mk-1 itself in time consuming redesign and validation in test flights.The reason was IAF never believed ADA to complete the complex job, and never expected it to fly in time. Instead they were pushing for 126 Mirage-2000 buys which was subsequently changed to MMRCA deal which is also hanging fire .


    If the government agreed for 124 mirage-2000 purchases in 2004 in itself the Tejas program would also have been finished , because with sukhoi-30 MKi making up heavy component and mirage the medium component replacing mig-21 there is no place for tejas.

    but the government of the day wanted to avoid single vendor situation which would have resulted in acrimonious corruption charges and asked the IAF to go for a mulit vendor based tender . IAF changed it's requirement to MMRCA and we now have the MMRCA circus with various irregularities hanging fire because no MOD higher official wants to follow the then telecom secretary and coal secretary to tihar jail!!!

    http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/nation/the-arms-lobby-is-very-strong

    With Dassualt alleging the HAl is unfit for TOT and wants to go with a giant private sector firm which has nil experience in aeronautics the deal is getting even more spicy.

    If this comes about Dassualt will have no obligation to transfer any tech for HAL for RAFALE. No one will even know the true cost of components.

    And the criteria for selection was changed from total life cycle cost to per unit fly away cost in the midst of evaluation process with IAF saying it is unable to arrive at total lifecycle cost!!!!!!

    MMS too is now distancing himself from this MMRCA deal with this thinly veiled statement, which will satnd him in good stead if there are future probes to it like the way he did with ---"it's better to go for auction for telecom 2G spectrum"

    And only after 2006 IAF realized that there is no escape from tejas mk-1 they entered the program in a big way asking for operational changes. ADA did not bargain for that and ran the project as R&D design project. If at all full co ordination was there from the start some amount of delays would have been avoided.

    Also DRDO resented IAF's attempts to control the program without setting aside a single rupee from it's budget and thought the IAF control of the program will jinx tejas in MARUT way. Contrast this with navy's setting aside 900 cr for tejas mk-2 effort!!! In fact tejas mk-2 is born out of this funding by navy and it's requirement.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  11. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    It is all about laying the foundation for the entry of pvt. players in a big way. Prioritywise Reliance ,TATA, L&T etc etc.

    Indigenisation cannot happen under compulsion of money shortage for that our defence forces need change their mind set.

    Major reform & overhaul of OFBs is must in terms of technology & administration. Ideally there should be divestment of some of OFBs to give head start for ELIGIBLE pvt. players.

    Above all DRDO's R&D allocation need to be incresed significantly in order to cater defence forces requirement.

    Accountability must be set for defence forces for involvement in the developement of the new arms system with DRDO labs. Ideally R&D budget should be allocated from the budget of the defence forces for the specific arms requirement.
     
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  12. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Agreed. Indigenization is just a political word now. There is no way the domestic industry can support the military.

    Like you said, if we end up being broke, we just have to lie down and take it until the economy improves.
     
  13. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    TATAs building Sikorsky shells,

    L&T Welding Arihant hulls,

    bangalore based Hind High vacuum has installed critical inert gas machine tools in HAL koraput for AL-31 engine facility.

    ISRO and DRDO source many missile parts from private industry,

    First the tech developed should be transferred to private sector then there will be no problem.

    With Bharath forge buying an entire howitzer line and competing for orders along with TATAs on their own volition with no back up from govt,

    And L&T seeking naval orders for their ship building facility,

    TATA advanced materials have been given the order for making composite fuselage parts forthe 40 tejas mk-1 orders tech for which was developed by NAL and transferred .
    http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/08/india-shining-nal-to-unveil-desi-lab.html

    MRF has succeeded in putting up a plant to make up Arjun tracks but it was shut down after the orders were curtailed to 124.


    and Ashok leyland is ready to invest in new engine for Arjun mk2 if a bigger production batch order is finalized,

    Aatra micro already finalized by DRDO as the chose production agency for L and S band ASEA .

    from the massive gear box in our first indigenous carrier to the gear boxes in Arjun and tejas,

    there are no dearth of private sector operators to do defense work.

    Only the sincere political will from the top giving large number orders for local stuff like tejas and Arjun,

    http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/11/innovative-mod-initiative-to-clear.html

    Also there were companies in Coimbatore that supplied parts to INSAT satellite series way back in 1990s,

    So it is for the DRDO and MOD to make it happen. Requisite production capacity is there in the country if the DRDO transfers the tech developed for their programs and DRDO is willing to do so.

    the only problem is the lack of support from defense forces in giving a large batch order for local products that stall all efforts in attaining critical mass. the local higher powered engine development effort for Arjun mk-2 by CVRDE in a JV with Ashok Leyland was stalled after the IA put a lid on orders for Arjun mk-1 to just 124.

    they buy T-90s with all their issues in thousands but will curtail a production run for a local product like Arjun which trumped the T-90 in the trials to 124 well below even the break even level.

    Same goes for tejas mk-2 many imported LRUs are being indigenized by ADA which is ready to transfer the tech to private sector to manufacture it,but with IAf restricting it's order size to just 80 tejas mk-2 no private player is going to sink in his hard earned capital in below critical mass loss making venture.

    it is a chicken first or egg first situation at best.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
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  14. ninja85

    ninja85 Regular Member

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    you are saying india should spend money on further r&d , not on buying

    that's good point but in air power lca is not much of an option it is still not that mature fighter, plus it capabilities are limited after all it's small fighter ,

    instead of lca's further versions , hal should get started on amca , the early the better

    and in tank yes india should keep developing arjun further instead of buying t-90.
     
  15. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    You should read the whole LCA tejas -IV thread and tejas mk-2 thread before saying it is a small fighter,,,,,,,,
     
  16. ninja85

    ninja85 Regular Member

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    compared to rafale.
     
  17. Snuggy321

    Snuggy321 Regular Member

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    Utter garbage.

    1.) The Mk2 Tejas is a paper plane and it does not even exist while the Rafale among the the best 4.5 gen fighter around.

    2.) Even the Tejas Mk1 has not even fired a a single BVR missile nor does it have a TWR of 1 or higher just to name 2 shortcomings of this aircraft.
     
  18. SilentKiller

    SilentKiller Regular Member

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    i suggest u to watch few Tejas video and then comment on its short comings!!:frusty:

    Tejas is good plane, Rafale is too good but benefits of Tejas induction in large numbers than rafale are a lot more
    lower cost and more numbers will help us retain numerical superiority over PAF
    Setup of Tejas assembly line will bring more jobs and we will gain more knowledge to develop better planes in future.
    induct 120 rafale only to replace Mig 27's and 250 Tejas, 50 Tejas m1 now within next 2-3 years and start removing mig-21's
    by then LCA Mk2 will be ready and order 200 of these and we can even include rafale tech in those.

    Reason is only 1, IAF and Army top brass want foreign Machines as they can earn under table more.
    Navy has learnt its lesson in a bitter way, we all know the delays in vikramaditya and scam in Barak, too much dependency on imports makes u week.
    sometimes u have to take bold decision to go for an ugly indian machine which might seem inferior but when u use it it might prove it other wise.
    how many fighter planes have u found in world which have not suffered a single tech snag in almost 3k test flights?
    it itselfs says how stable and good LCA is, it might not match electronics etc of rafale now but by using its ToT we can even improve that in LCA.
     
  19. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    I would not say the same ..

    Making MK2 and mass producing it will only benefit us, Let it be money or knowledge will go in our country not someone else, We are buying Rafale is only coz of our mistakes in past which forcing us to continue do the same, Hand tied ..

     
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  20. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    In tejas mk-2 thread in this forum,

    and in the comments column on following blogs,

    Securitywise-Stop wasteful defence expenditure by Bharath Karnad

    and

    Undermining national security by-AVM Arjun

    both from Indian Express news service it is clearly explained.

    Please go through a few pages of the following thread,.

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...arat-karnad-stop-wasteful-military-deals.html

    Also

    reding a few pages of this thread will help you to understand the argument why buying 126 RAFALEs at 20 billion plus dollars monumental cost will spell the death knell of home grown aviation industry in india.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  21. Snuggy321

    Snuggy321 Regular Member

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    You have not answered a single point which I have made earlier All you give a mere statements like "Tejas is a good plane" with no reference, I am not talking about future benefits which will surely come... but about the mere combat aspects and capabilities of the Tejas.

    A fighter that lacks BVR capability, a fighter which cannot keep climbing without lift from its wings, a fighter that has not even been inducted is simply no match to a fighter made by one of the oldest and most experienced aircraft manufacturers.

    The IAF has a limited budget, and will thus only go for the best plane they can get.. sorry but the Tejas is simply playing in a completely different league.
     

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