BSF shot dead teenagers trying to exfilterate to Pakistan

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RAM

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Paki fan boy in mickey mouse drab! lol
@JAYATL

Personalising things is not well within the decorum of HEALTHY discussions.kindly refraining from doing so if not this will be reported to MODS.
 

pmaitra

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If I may, I'll present my humble perspective here:

  • I would have sympathy for the dead Bangladeshi teenagers if they were trying to live in India to earn a livelihood after having illegally entered India and were shot dead somewhere not near the international border. No, such people deserve to be deported, but they also deserve the right to live.
  • I am afraid I cannot display much sympathy here simply because these illegal immigrants were trying to cross the international border, that too into Pakistan. Being from Bangladesh, having crossed the entire east west expanse in India, they reached Punjab and were trying to enter Pakistan. Why?
  • What if the BSF failed to apprehend these Bangladeshis and they successfully exfiltrated to Pakistan and then two months down the line these very people re-entered Mumbai in rubber boats to murder 250 people? We would be the first ones to hurl abuses at the BSF.

Even in the past I have criticised some BSF personnel for taking bribes and facilitating illegal cross border trade and human trafficking. Now, I must commend those BSF personnel for doing what they are getting paid for.

I don't support killing and violence either, but if given only the two options of the (1) possibility of death to foreigners against the (2) possibility of death to Indians, I would rather chose the former even if it slightly reduces the possibility of an attack on India and/or Indians.
 
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JayATL

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We Have enough Anti India Elements traversing International Borders to INDIA by any crook methods,And I believe if its an Unauthorised entry,theres no harm in using Firearms to incapacitate these elements.WE dont need anymore AJMAL kasabs entries to reinforce this policy.If we go by the redtape methods to stop these elements,the BSF would be helpless in doing so.The illegal tresspassing was so high that the National policy of fencing got intiated in late 1990s west and east borders.

These people are deliberately doing so to achive their objectives.The Guarding force in the border has every right to exercis their availabe options to restrain them.I hv read 3 months ago - a pakistan teenager was also been apprehended by BSF And sent back to PAK authorities after verifying the identity and his plans.Howvere it may not happen or expected to happen evry time as ,differentiating these elemnt's objectives is not Guarding force's primary motto.
simple question- can you ltell me what my position is on the issue and on which border?
 
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pmaitra

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If shot at you shoot back in self defense, you don't wear mickey mouse ears and squeal like one :) .
I know it will be hard for a sham Vice President of an MNC, who earns more than 6 Crores (according to him) to understand and measure his own words.
Gentlemen (and I am addressing you as gentlemen because I believe both of you are gentlemen but have just lost your cool for the moment; don't prove me wrong), please avoid using ad hominem attacks and non sequiturs against each other. The way we treat each other reflects upon us and this forum is accessible by people the world over. I have quoted just two examples above.
 

JayATL

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If I may, I'll present my humble perspective here:

  • I would have sympathy for the dead Bangladeshi teenagers if they were trying to live in India to earn a livelihood after having illegally entered India and were shot dead somewhere not near the international border. No, such people deserve to be deported, but they also deserve the right to live.
  • I am afraid I cannot display much sympathy here simply because these illegal immigrants were trying to cross the international border, that too into Pakistan. Being from Bangladesh, having crossed the entire east west expanse in India, they reached Punjab and were trying to enter Pakistan. Why?
  • What if the BSF failed to apprehend these Bangladeshis and they successfully exfiltrated to Pakistan and then two months down the line these very people re-entered Mumbai in rubber boats to murder 250 people? We would be the first ones to hurl abuses on the BSF.

Even in the past I have criticised some BSF personnel for taking bribes and facilitating illegal cross border trade and human trafficking. Now, I must commend those BSF personnel for doing what they are getting paid for.

I don't support killing and violence either, but if given only the two options of the (1) possibility of death to foreigners against the (2) possibility of death to Indians, I would rather chose the former even if it slightly reduces the possibility of an attack on India and/or Indians.
guess what, there is no distance between your position and mine. :) i have no issues or qualms with what the BSF did in this article. in fact if you read my very first post...it's been my stance from the get go.

I'm of two minds here:

1. If there are signs that clearly state , especially on this volatile side of the border ( not the bangla side)- stating don't attempt to cross or you will be shot- then this is a sad but expected incident.

2. I still feel that on the bangla side the shoot to kill anyone , is way overboard and inhumane. That side of the border seems to be more about illegal immigration than terrorist. I think the orders on the bangla side should be - if identified or reasonably suspected as a terrorist then shoot to kill- personally I would assume that by giving the terrorist a chance to give up- nothing like gleaming information off them .. If not identified as a terrorist, then arrest , detain, deport.

Those images of a teenage girl hanging on the barb wire and shot won't get nothing but bad PR and image of India, period. Same girl on the US border would have been arrested once she crossed over). if they border police had shot her - they would have been thrown in Jail. And have been in the past.

Point is- you can't lose your basic sense of civility , what the country was established upon , in the face of terrorist acts. otherwise those terrorist have won. HOWEVER_That does not mean ' open borders' or being stupid regarding security. But it also does not mean going overboard in the opposite direction.
 
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civfanatic

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the great evil US :D won't shoot to kill ALL on sight. period.
I suppose the great U.S. would find it more humane to carpet bomb millions of civilians into submission, as they did in Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc. etc.? After all, the "great freedom-fighting heroes" flying the B-2s don't actually see the people they kill, do they?

It is perfectly normal to question the moral implications of the "shoot-on-sight" policy. Most people would. What we have to determine, as Indians, is whether the prosperity and security of India is more important than the lives of foreigners with dubious intentions; as you can see from the responses in this thread, quite a few of us believe it to be so.

The fact remains, however, that we are one of the most pacifist and peaceful nations in the world. Many would say that we are pacifist to a fault, to the point of spinelessness, to the point of appearing weak in front of the world's great powers. Regardless, we have shown our restraint numerous times in history, when more pragmatic nations would have seized the advantage. Most recently, we showed it last week where we did nothing after the Sri Lankans killed our fishermen; a normal country, in our position vis-a-vis Sri Lanka, would have at least made a display of military force, to show who was boss. India did not do even that.

However, the fact that you are trying to criticize the "humaneness" of the BSF's policy while trying to show the US as a great "humane" nation, is not normal. It is downright hilarious.
 

pmaitra

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^^ Good point. The US never lets human rights come in the way of their own evaluation of their threat perspectives. There are way too many people who justify the nuclear bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki claiming that helped end WWII. For us Indians, we should do what we feel is right for our safety. Our own safety comes first.
 

RAM

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If I may, I'll present my humble perspective here:


  • I would have sympathy for the dead Bangladeshi teenagers if they were trying to live in India to earn a livelihood after having illegally entered India and were shot dead somewhere not near the international border. No, such people deserve to be deported, but they also deserve the right to live.
  • I am afraid I cannot display much sympathy here simply because these illegal immigrants were trying to cross the international border, that too into Pakistan. Being from Bangladesh, having crossed the entire east west expanse in India, they reached Punjab and were trying to enter Pakistan. Why?
  • What if the BSF failed to apprehend these Bangladeshis and they successfully exfiltrated to Pakistan and then two months down the line these very people re-entered Mumbai in rubber boats to murder 250 people? We would be the first ones to hurl abuses on the BSF.


Even in the past I have criticised some BSF personnel for taking bribes and facilitating illegal cross border trade and human trafficking. Now, I must commend those BSF personnel for doing what they are getting paid for.

I don't support killing and violence either, but if given only the two options of the (1) possibility of death to foreigners against the (2) possibility of death to Indians, I would rather chose the former even if it slightly reduces the possibility of an attack on India and/or Indians.
I do agree the fact that Force's internal Health need to be supervised and to be reformed .And its true Bribery/human trafficking have been assisted by border forces to a small extent.

However we must understand the fact this force has been overused in inhospitable terrains /with no proper REST allocation hours(which they amended 2 months ago-MANDATORY seven hours of rest ) is expected to perform in more humane way to the elements with all sorts of anti-national objectives trying to do unauthorised entry to create unrest in the Country.Its hard to differentiate and to do actual policing in International Borders especially after the MUMBAI incidents ,I think the GOVT has given explicit Orders to restrain these elementsirrespective of Who they are and whatever their objectives by anymeans.
 

JayATL

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However, the fact that you are trying to criticize the "humaneness" of the BSF's policy while trying to show the US as a great "humane" nation, is not normal. It is downright hilarious
it maybe if i was trying to do that. if you had and I don't particularly blame you for not going through 5 pages of comments -- but if you would have , you would have seen that I was adding that piece to a question that was raised several times regrading Us not having as a much as a stake on it's borders.

I'm not questioning the indian politico anymore, something again you may have picked up on , if you did scan through my earlier comments. Since the Indian Govt.have ALREADY made changes and essentially agree with my stance! ... I 'm at this point trying to and failing in most cases ( it happens) to change the " kill baby kill" posse to see the maturity and wisdom in needing to back off from a kill ALL on sight policy.
 

RAM

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simple question- can you ltell me what my position is on the issue and on which border?
you are trying to make analogy of US or western style Border policy making into Indian border managment system which cannot be equated as theres a lot of glaring disparities for both countries style of running.
 

JayATL

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^^ Good point. The US never lets human rights come in the way of their own evaluation of their threat perspectives. There are way too many people who justify the nuclear bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki claiming that helped end WWII. For us Indians, we should do what we feel is right for our safety. Our own safety comes first.
You know the ones who support that bombing , who they are? They are George Bush/ Republican/ Neo con crowd. the heritage foundation crowd etc etc.. it's not main stream , it a minority and i assure you they are " not way too many people".
 

JayATL

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you are trying to make analogy of US or western style Border policy making into Indian border managment system which cannot be equated as theres a lot of glaring disparities for both countries style of running.
nope wrong. how did you comment without knowing what my stance was?
 

pmaitra

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You know the ones who support that bombing , who they are? They are George Bush/ Republican/ Neo con crowd. the heritage foundation crowd etc etc.. it's not main stream , it a minority and i assure you they are " not way too many people".
Which state do you live in? I live in North Carolina and have visited most of the 'Conservative South'. I'm afraid I cannot agree with you w.r.t the places I have been to.
 

pmaitra

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However we must understand the fact this force has been overused in inhospitable terrains /with no proper REST allocation hours(which they amended 2 months ago-MANDATORY seven hours of rest ) is expected to perform in more humane way to the elements with all sorts of anti-national objectives trying to do unauthorised entry to create unrest in the Country.
I wasn't aware about that. It is really concerning. Even a civilian needs minimum 6 to 7 hours sleep. For the BSF, 7 hours is the bare minimum. Should have been done long back.
 
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RAM

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nope wrong. how did you comment without knowing what my stance was?

First of all -Why should I need to know your STANCE?


Secondly IF NEED BE-All along you were trying to infuse the perception THAT- Border managemnt system need to be more humane way where the tresspassers need to be handled sensitively even If they carry bombs or milkpowder by the BSF.

That cant be done for all counts you expected to do.Becoz the challenges posed by Guarding Force in India varies from Terrorists to Human trafficking and Actual differentiation/policing is difficult to achieve on all counts.
 

RAM

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I wasn't aware about that. It is really concerning. Even a civilian needs minimum 6 to 7 hours sleep. For the BSF, 7 hours is the bare minimum. Should have been done long back.
yes Its true Mr Maitra.This happened 2 months back only- finally implemented by DGP Mr RAMAN SRIVASTAVA.
 

Rage

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Guys, go easy, will ya?

JayATL,

you're making the fundamental mistake of assuming we have a 'Shoot-To-Kill' at sight orders? Where do we have a Shoot-To-Kill policy? We have it nowhere. You got it from some journalistic gibberish written by a 'Brad Adams' for the Guardian.

Sure, the BSF may be a lil' 'trigger-happy' at times. But it is not a matter of policy. The average profile of the border-crosser is one of illegal immigrant or criminal intent. Smugglers do not make up the vast majority. We do not have the capacity to track every alien in this country, given as we do not have a sophisticated National Registry or database, such as the one in the United States. We are beginning to develop one now <and one that will be even more sophisticated than the United States'> and complete with biometric information, etc. that will make the task of border policing and deportation even more easy. But, as of now, we do not have the capacity or infrastructure to house the hundreds of illegal immigrants that attempt to cross the border. It is BSF policy to, try and first, apprehend the intruder/interloper. But what happens if he trys to make a run? Given that the average profile of the illegal immigrant is that of felonious intent, it is BSF policy to shoot-to-kill when he can not be caught.

Perhaps, in the future, when India and Bangladesh work together to reduce border trafficking, we can build the institutions necessary to house those who attempt to cross, pending deportation. But we have no interest in, and cannot, do it at our own cost.

Besides, many of those who attempt to cross have no proper documentation, no ration-cards or identification. How do you deal with them in such a situation? Particularly when, the country in question refuses to acknowledge them as citizens.

There are prohibitory orders installed on the Indo-Bangladesh border from sunrise to sunset, and the people are informed of it. It is the BSF's duty to upkeep those prohibitory orders.

Besides there has been a drastic come-down in numbers. There have been only 3 death from Aug-Dec last year, compared with 109 in 2009.


I wasn't aware about that. It is really concerning. Even a civilian needs minimum 6 to 7 hours sleep. For the BSF, 7 hours is the bare minimum. Should have been done long back.

pmaitra, you have no idea. Long arduous marches, rigorous training regimens and until recently, lack of proper, basic equipment. You haven't seen 'human suffering', until you've seen it @ the BSF.
 
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civfanatic

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pmaitra, you have no idea. Long arduous marches, rigorous training regimens and until recently, lack of proper, basic equipment. You haven't seen suffering, until you've seen it @ the BSF.
I thought BSF was supposed to be a "paramilitary" organization? It sounds like the jawans there have it worse than the IA.
 

Rage

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I thought BSF was supposed to be a "paramilitary" organization? It sounds like the jawans there have it worse than the IA.
They have it worse because they are a "paramilitary" organization. Long, rigorous regimes, with little or no rest. Coupled with the detritus of equipment from the Armed forces' modernization programs. It's not too far from the truth, when they say, the men in the Indian Armed forces are among the best.
 

JayATL

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First of all -Why should I need to know your STANCE?
WHY? Because you are freaking quoting me in your earlier response, LOL. DUH!- if you quote me then at least know my damn stance eh?

Secondly IF NEED BE-All along you were trying to infuse the perception THAT- Border managemnt system need to be more humane way where the tresspassers need to be handled sensitively even If they carry bombs or milkpowder by the BSF.
WRONG AGAIN! Posthumously wrong, fantastically wrong! you could be any more wrong if the word wrong was created to describe you! in fact so wrong and so absurdly daft that I almost jumped out of my seat .
 
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