British attempt to defeat Chinese counter-stealth radar

Discussion in 'China' started by Martian, Mar 10, 2014.

  1. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    In the beginning, the attacker invented an aircraft to bomb the defender.

    The defender invented radar and a surface-to-air missile to shoot down the attacking aircraft.

    The attacker responded by building stealth aircraft, which is stealthy in X-band and upper S-band.

    The defender replied with L-band and VHF (ie. very high frequency) radars to detect stealth aircraft.

    The Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS has L-band radar. The Chinese Aegis Type 052C/D destroyers have a VHF radar.

    Now, the British Taranis looks like it is designed to defeat VHF counter-stealth radar.

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    Broadband Stealth May Drive Taranis Design | AviationWeek

    "Broadband Stealth May Drive Taranis Design
    By Bill Sweetman
    Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology
    February 17, 2014

    [​IMG]
    Credit: BAE Systems

    BAE Systems' Taranis unmanned combat air system demonstrator is designed to defeat new counter-stealth radars, and may use thrust vectoring as a primary means of flight control and an innovative high-precision, passive navigation and guidance system, an AW&ST analysis indicates.

    Taranis is a blended wing-body shape with no tail surfaces, like most UCAS designs for wide-band, all-aspect stealth. It has a triangular top-mounted inlet and 2-D V-shaped exhaust nozzle. The underside is flat, with visible outlines representing weapon-bay doors. Panels under the leading edge point to provision for a dual-antenna radar like a smaller version of that fitted to the B-2 bomber. The demonstrator may be designed so that functional weapon bays and sensors can be installed for a follow-on program.

    The Rolls-Royce Adour engine is mounted low in the center fuselage, behind a serpentine duct. Two small doors are visible on either side of the raised centerbody, and are likely to be auxiliary inlets used at low speeds. The weapon-bay outlines are on either side of the engine and the forward-retracting main landing gears are outboard of the weapon bays. The demonstrator's gear comes from the Saab Gripen.

    The wing leading edges are highly swept to reduce head-on radar cross-section at all wavelengths. The double-V trailing edge is swept more acutely than on most blended wing-body UCAS designs. Unlike the Northrop Grumman X-47B or the Dassault-led Neuron, there are no short-chord wing sections or short edges: The shortest edge is more than 11 ft. long.

    This most likely indicates Taranis is designed to avoid detection by very high frequency (VHF) early warning radars such as those being developed by Russia and China as counter-stealth systems (AW&ST Sept. 2, 2013, p. 28). VHF radars can detect some stealth shapes with wing and tail surfaces close in size to their meter-range wavelengths. When that happens, radar scattering is driven by “resonant” phenomena not affected by the target's shape.


    Taranis's flight controls are intriguing. There are two large elevon surfaces on the trailing edge, with deep “cat-eye” cut-outs at both ends: These prevent formation of right-angle shapes when the elevons move, and are large because the surfaces are thick. Outboard of the elevons are upper and lower “inlay” control surfaces, set into the wing surface.

    The elevons will provide pitch and roll force. The inlay surfaces can act as roll spoilers and speedbrakes, and differentially for yaw control. (Similar surfaces were used on the upper side of the X-47B.) But the inlay surfaces are non-stealthy when open, so they must mainly be used at low speeds, including take-off and landing. The one-piece elevons cannot provide yaw input that is independent of pitch or roll. There is no visible source of yaw control, which points to the use of thrust vectoring.

    In 2010, BAE teamed with two British universities to build a small UAV called Demon with fluidic vectoring—using air injection inside the exhaust to vector the thrust, with no moving parts externally or in the exhaust stream—as part of a flight-control system with no moving surfaces. A Rolls-Royce patent filed in the U.K. in 2005 outlines a fluidic vectoring system designed to generate yawing moments in a high-aspect-ratio 2-D nozzle.

    The navigation and guidance system for Taranis, perhaps not yet installed, very probably uses an advanced concept called simultaneous localization and mapping (Slam). BAE Systems Australia has been developing a highly autonomous Slam-based system and is responsible for the Taranis navigation and guidance gear, which it refuses to discuss (AW&ST April 1, 2013, p. 24).

    Slam is suited to a stealth aircraft because it can use passive sensors—day video, IR or passive RF. Nor does it rely on a sometimes inaccurate terrain database.

    Taranis is a subscale demonstrator. However, a 25% scale-up would result in an aircraft of almost twice the weight, so it is probably close in size to an operational follow-on."
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
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  3. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    China will react to British Taranis

    It's a British sub-scale prototype. If implemented correctly, it should render VHF radar useless against the Taranis. However, there might be a compromise in aircraft performance due to the lack of meter-length tail control surfaces.

    The Taranis has to be careful and stay outside the range of a Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS with L-band radar. If the Taranis is detectable in lower S-band or C-band, it will have to stay away from ground-based radar stations too.

    The Taranis may be visible on HF (ie. high frequency) radar. HF radar should be able to detect the 11-foot Taranis control surfaces. Also, the entire Taranis vehicle should resonate at radar wavelength on the scale of the Taranis' length.

    Obviously, the Chinese will secretly build their own version of the Taranis to defeat VHF radar and test their other radar spectrums against the Chinese Taranis.
     
  4. fzaq

    fzaq Regular Member

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    haha! very true
     
  5. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Obviously, but it will mysteriously sit idle on display like all Chini UAV models.
     
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  6. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    You mean like the Chinese LiJian stealth UAV flying in the air (see picture below) for 20 minutes?

    I haven't been here for about three years and you (Armand) are still clueless about Chinese military technology.

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    China's Military Technological Milestones - includes China's first stealth UAV flight

    210 B.C. (2,200 years ago): China invents chrome-plating technology during Qin Dynasty under emperor Qin Shihuang.

    1964: China detonated a 22-kiloton atomic bomb during the Mao Zedong administration.

    1967: China detonated a 3.3-megaton thermonuclear bomb that was designed with abacus calculations.

    1970: China successfully sends its first satellite into space - the Dong Fang Hong I

    1971: China successfully launched its first DF-5 ICBM with 12,000-15,000km range and capable of carrying a five-megaton "city buster" thermonuclear warhead.

    1972: China builds its first atomic clock at Shanghai Astronomical Observatory (SHAO).

    1984: China built its first cryogenic YF-73 rocket engine.

    1986: China built an indigenous DD3 nickel-based single-crystal superalloy. (Earliest English article citation is year 1995. However, the first published Chinese research paper on DD3 discovery was in 1986.)

    1988: China test-detonates a 1- to 20-kiloton Neutron Bomb on September 29, 1988.

    1998: Chinese J-10 Vigorous Dragon had its first flight. Officially unveiled in 2007.
    1998: "At the 1998 Zhuhai Air Show, the [Chinese] Seek Optics Company displayed information of its stealth coating and software for stealth shaping.[63]"

    1999: Chinese JSTARS Tu-154M/D Electronic Intelligence Aircraft in service (e.g. Careless B-4138).

    2000: China successfully sends its first GPS satellite (Beidou) into space.

    2001: Chinese Type 99 Main Battle Tank in service.

    2002: China's Type 093 Shang-class nuclear attack submarine (SSN) is launched.

    2003: China sends its first taikonaut Yang Liwei into space.
    2003: China's KJ-2000 AWACS with domestic AESA radar has its first flight.
    2003*: DD6 is China's indigenous second-generation nickel-based single-crystal superalloy (Earliest English article citation is year 2003. However, actual DD6 discovery was probably closer to year 2000.)

    2005: China's Type 052C Lanzhou-class AESA-equipped destroyer entered service.

    2006: China's WS-10A turbofan engine certified for production.
    2006: First static test of the WS-13 turbofan engine with single-crystal turbine blades.

    2007: China clones world's first rabbit.
    2007: Chinese direct-ascent ASAT shoots down orbiting satellite.
    2007: Chinese DF-31A MIRVed ICBM in service.

    2008: China conducts its first spacewalk with taikonaut Zhai Zhigang.
    2008: China orbits its first data tracking and relay communications satellite - Tianlian I

    2009: Public disclosure of China's 5,000km "Underground Great Wall"

    2010: China builds world's-fastest supercomputer Tianhe-1A.
    2010: Chinese GBI (i.e. ground based interceptor) shoots down a ballistic missile during mid-course phase.
    2010: Chinese WZ-10 Attack Helicopter in service.
    2010: Chinese Type 094 Jin-class nuclear missile ballistic submarine (SSBN) in service.
    2010: Chinese Yaogan 9 NOSS (Naval Ocean Surveillance System) satellite trio in orbit.

    2011: Chengdu J-20 stealth superfighter has first flight on January 11, 2011.

    2012: China sends its first woman taikonaut Liu Yang into space on a 10-day mission.
    2012: Chinese Jialong manned submersible completes world record-breaking 7,000 meter dive.
    2012: First sighting of next-generation AESA radar for Type 052C destroyer.
    2012: DF-41 10-MIRV-capable ICBM with 12,000-15,000km range had first flight on July 24, 2012.
    2012: Chinese Type 056 corvette enters service.
    2012: New Chinese thermonuclear-capable IRBM with 4,000km range (to potentially strike Guam).
    2012: China's Beidou System successfully covers all of China and the surrounding region.
    2012: Shenyang J-31 medium-range stealth fighter has first flight on October 31, 2012.
    2012: China builds its first optical clock (which is more precise than an atomic clock).

    2013: China's Y-20 heavy-lift military transport conducts first flight on January 26, 2013.
    2013: "The Chinese military has deployed its new anti-ship ballistic missile [ASBM or "carrier killer"] along its southern coast facing Taiwan, the Pentagon’s top military intelligence officer said today."
    2013: "After a round of successful testing in 2012, the JL-2 appears ready to reach initial operational capability in 2013." (Source [p. 39, Pentagon 2013 report on Chinese Military Power]: http://www.defense.gov/pubs/2013_China_Report_FINAL.pdf)
    2013: China has deployed H-6K "God of War" bomber that is capable of carrying thermonuclear-capable CJ-10 cruise missiles.
    2013: Bill Gertz reports China is building 1,240 miles of special tracks for rail-mobile ICBMs.
    2013: China deploys advanced SRBM with MARV (maneuverable reentry vehicle) thermonuclear-capable warhead
    2013: China's "Lijian stealth UAV from Hongdu has made its first flight on Nov. 21 at 13:00 local time. The flight was 20 minutes."

    LiJian (SharpSword) UAV Maiden Flight

    [​IMG]

    [Note: Thank you to Cirr for the post.]

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    Alert 5

    "Photo: Hongdu Lijian stealth UAV maiden flight
    Posted in UAV on November 21st, 2013

    The Lijian stealth UAV from Hongdu has made its first flight on Nov. 21 at 13:00 local time. The flight was 20 minutes."
     
  7. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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    I know even more powerful means to make anything more stealthier than ever before.........


    Can anyone guess what it may be.........
     
  8. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    C-band radar, F-22 vulnerabilities, and RQ-170 stealth UAV

    There are three separate points that I want to make.

    1. The American Patriot anti-missile system uses C-band radar. It is widely known that the F-22 stealth aircraft is stealthy only in X-band and upper S-band. It would be interesting to illuminate a F-22 with C-band radar and see what happens.

    Patriot Missile Long-Range Air-Defence System, United States of America | Army Technology

    [​IMG]
    Trailer-mounted Raytheon MPQ-53 C-Band tracking radar for Patriot missile system. The trailer-mounted Raytheon MPQ-53 C-Band tracking radar, is capable of identifying 100 targets.

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    We have the following common radar bands.

    X-band: Fire-control radar for jet aircraft
    C-band: Used by American Patriot Missile System
    S-band: Present on Chinese Aegis Type 052C/D destroyers and American Aegis destroyers
    L-band: Present on Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS
    VHF: Present on Chinese Aegis Type 052C/D destroyers
    HF: Chinese over-the-horizon radars use HF (ie. high frequency) band
    (See High-frequency over-the-horizon radar and ionospheric backscatter studies in China | ResearchGate)

    We know stealth aircraft can be seen on L-band and VHF. Stealth aircraft should also be visible in HF, because the length or width of the aircraft should resonate at HF half-wavelength.

    I do not know if C-band or lower S-band can see stealth aircraft or at what range.

    The point is that stealth aircraft is not that stealthy. It depends on the radar band that is being used and at what range. Since China is a highly-industrialized nation that uses all radar bands, we can conclude that stealth aircraft is not stealthy to the full spectrum of Chinese radars.

    2. Some people have suggested putting external conformal fuel tanks on the F-22 to extend its short combat radius. However, this is a bad idea for three reasons. Firstly, the F-22's external conformal fuel tanks will resonate at its own half-wavelength (e.g. length or width). Secondly, external fuel tanks violate the area rule. A radar illuminating an F-22 at a 3/4 angle will see a lot more area. This will light up the F-22 for bistatic or multistatic radar. Thirdly, the F-22 would lose a lot of its maneuverability with heavy external fuel tanks hung from its wings.

    [​IMG]
    F-22 with drop tanks in transit to Kadena Air Base, Japan, from Langley Air Force Base, Virginia

    3. How did Iran manage to capture the American RQ-170 stealth UAV? The RQ-170 flies at 50,000 feet and it's stealthy. How did Iran even know the RQ-170 is there?

    Given the remarkably good shape of the captured RQ-170, an accidental crash looks unlikely. Also, it is standard American policy to bomb valuable crashed military equipment.

    By excluding a crash, it suggests the American military was caught unaware when the Iranians took control (via GPS spoofing or other means) of the RQ-170.

    This brings us back to the original mystery. How did Iran know the location of a high-flying RQ-170? I believe either Russia or China had a hand in locating and bringing down the RQ-170. Only those two countries have the technical skill and equipment. If what I suspect is true, it means the RQ-170 is not stealthy to Russia/China.

    This still leaves unanswered whether a B-2 (which is far more expensive and stealthier) is visible to Russia/China. However, if the RQ-170 was located and intentionally brought down then American stealth is losing ground to Russian/Chinese radar and electronic expertise.

    [​IMG]

    Iran Shows Downed Spy Drone as U.S. Assesses Technology Loss | BusinessWeek

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Maybe you should spend some time on IDF so you can educate yourself. Not only do Chinis have no exports for UAVs, they hardly use their wondrous creations themselves. They sit as idle mockups at airshows.

    A list of Chinese achievements? Really?? Half of it is fake anyway, not like it matters. How did you like that Lunar Rabbit probe? Couldn't last more than 3 hours before it died. :lol:
     
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  10. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    Armand, you are as ignorant as ever. Try reading the news once in a while. This is my last reply to your stupidity.

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    Chinese UAV spotted by MSDF Aircraft | Japan Security Watch

    "Chinese UAV spotted by MSDF Aircraft
    by James Simpson on Jun 23, 2011 • 1:00 pm

    Confirmation of China’s UAV: Chinese Navy Training in the Pacific

    [​IMG]
    Chinese naval UAV (top-left) spotted by the MSDF (Source: MoD)

    Passing between Miyakojima and the main island of Okinawa, a Chinese naval fleet was sailing in the eastern Philippine Sea on a recent training operation when a Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force aircraft spotted a unmanned aerial vehicle in the air, it was announced today. This is the first confirmed sighting of a Chinese UAV. The Chinese fleet has been on a two-week long voyage in the Pacific Ocean to practice its gunnery and other skills. Between the evening of the 22nd and early dawn of the 23rd, the fleet passed between Okinawa and Miyakojima sailing northwest believed on its return to base.

    According to the Ministry of Defense, on June 8th and 9th, the Chinese fleet set sail into the East China Sea in a southeastern direction, split into three groups including missile destroyers and frigates. While heading towards the eastern Philippine Sea after its training, an MSDF aircraft on patrol at the time spotted a UAV flying in the vicinity of the fleet and took photographs for further confirmation. The UAV is believed to have taken off and landed on the deck of one of the vessels. (article continues)"
     
  11. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    F-35 can be seen by VHF, HF, S, L, and X-band radars

    An F-35 can be detected by VHF radar due to resonance and Rayleigh scattering.

    HF radar can see an F-35 by bouncing the signal off the ionosphere and detecting the F-35 from above.
    S and L-band radars can see an F-35 from all angles except from the front.
    X-band radar can see an F-35 from the side only.

    In conclusion, digital radars with powerful digital signal processing can detect formerly stealthy aircraft.

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    How stealthy is the F-35 | Defense Issues

    "F-35s stealth

    Radar stealth

    F-35 was designed from the outset to be less stealthy against X-band radar than the F-22. But it has characteristics which will reduce stealth level even further. Both F-35 and F-22 are only stealthy against enemy radars that are horizontal or few degrees from horizontal. Due to lower inclination of surfaces from the horizontal, this “stealth area” for the F-35 is far less than F-22s; and as soon as F-35 maneuvers, it becomes instantly unstealthy unless maneuvers are done only by vertical tail surfaces, keeping aircraft completely level. F-35 also has many irregularities in its surface – there is bulge above left wing, presumably where the gun is located on the A version, as well as bulges below wing root, on weapons bays doors, below the engine and below the nose where IRST is located. These all help increase F-35s RCS when it maneuvers away from horizontal plane.

    VHF radars are radars with wavelengths in 1-3 meter range. For this, it is important to understand two terms:
    Rayleigh scattering region is region where wavelength is larger than shaping features of target or target itself. In that region, only thing that matters for RCS is actual physical size of target itself. Resonance occurs where shaping features are comparable in wavelength to radar, resulting in induced electrical charges over the skin of target, vastly increasing RCS.

    [​IMG]
    F-35 in VHF band

    As it can be seen, many F-35s shaping features are in either Rayleigh or resonance scattering region of VHF radars. Situation with early warning HF radars is even worse, as they not only have very long wavelengths, but also come from above after reflecting from the atmosphere. Situation is somewhat better with S and L band radars, but F-35s RCS against these is still far higher than against X band radars. Even against X-band radars, it is only stealthy (LO) from front and rear; against S-band radar, it is stealthy from narrow front aspect, while only limited reduction is achieved from direct front against L-band radar; this is in part thanks to nozzle design, whose segments act as Rayleigh or resonance reflectors in all bands with lower frequency than X band. Against ground-based X-band radars, its side RCS will likely be similar to that of conventional fighter.

    When combined with lack of kinematic performance, it means that F-35 will be held back until F-22s and Growlers – or in European ventures, Rafales and Typhoons – have neutralized enemy air defenses. This removes only justification for all-aspect stealth."

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    Assessing Joint Strike Fighter Defence Penetration Capabilities | Air Power Australia

    [​IMG]
    [Red means a particular band of radar can see the F-35 from that direction.]

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    http://steeljawscribe.com/2008/10/08/of-wargames-jsfs-and-baby-seals-ii

    "In the realm of radar, it depends on the type (band) of radar encountered. The current generation’s capability is optimized against X-band tracking and guidance fire control systems. Less well understood will be its capability against the likes of much lower band radars, especially those deployed in the VHF band. This is an issue because the waveforms are large enough in the lower frequencies to overcome many of the LO measures deployed. In times past, this was an acceptable situation because the systems then, while possibly detecting an LO aircraft, did not have a fire control-level of accuracy (ask an E-2 NFO sometime about radar bananas…). Primarily it is because of the design of low frequency antennas and the distance of the object from the radiating source, it would not be unusual to get a return that would measure out at a couple of miles in azimuth and range. Yes – there is “something” there, but absent a fire control system, there isn’t anything kinetically that can be done about it.

    That is, until the advent of an AESA variant of VHF radar (1L119 Nebo SVU), which the Russians are deploying to support their S-300 SAM systems.

    [​IMG]
    [Russian VHF radars. It is a fully digital AESA with precision 3D capability, with accuracy rivaling S-band missile battery acquisition radars. (Caption source: Dr. Carlo Kopp at Russian VHF counter stealth radars proliferate | Air Power Australia)]

    Why VHF radar? Recall the relationship between LO/VLO and radar waves – the smaller the wavelength (higher frequency) the “easier” it is to develop/deploy LO/VLO countermeasures. Go in the other direction, however, and eventually just the sheer size of the aircraft will enable detection by the radar. The following image (via www.AUSAirpower.net) is germane –

    [​IMG]

    'For instance, let us consider the F-35 JSF in the 2 metre band favoured by Russian VHF radar designers. From a planform shaping perspective, it is immediately apparent that the nose, inlets, nozzle and junctions between fuselage, wing and stabs will present as Raleigh regime scattering centres, since the shaping features are smaller than a wavelength. Most of the straight edges are 1.5 to two wavelengths in size, putting them firmly in the resonance regime of scattering. Size simply precludes the possibility that this airframe can neatly reflect impinging 2 metre band radiation away in a well controlled fashion.

    The only viable mechanism for reducing the VHF band signature is therefore in materials, especially materials which can strongly attenuate the induced electrical currents in the skins and leading edges. The physics of the skin effect show that the skin depth is minimised by materials which have strong magnetic properties. The unclassified literature is replete with magnetic absorber materials which have reasonable attenuation performance at VHF band, but are very dense, and materials which require significant depth to be effective if lightweight. The problem the JSF has is that it cannot easily carry many hundreds of pounds of low band absorber materials in an airframe with borderline aerodynamic performance. Some technologies, such as laminated photonic surface structures might be viable for skins, but the experimental work shows best effect in the decimetric and centimetric bands. Thickness again becomes an issue.

    The reality is that in conventional decimetric to centimetric radar band low observable design, shaping accounts for the first 10 to 100 fold reduction in signature, and materials are used to gain the remainder of the signature reduction effect. In the VHF band shaping in fighter sized aircraft is largely ineffective, requiring absorbent materials with 10 to 100 fold better performance than materials currently in use. In the world of materials, getting twice the performance out of a new material is considered good, getting fivefold performance exceptional, and getting 100 fold better performance requires some fundamental breakthrough in physics.'"

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    totallynotabrony - FIMFiction.net

    "Okay, so now you’re up and operating. What else should you keep in mind? The weather is a big factor. Generally, clear days are better for radio. Plus, there’s this nifty thing called the ionosphere. It’s a region of the upper atmosphere, from about 85 km (53 mi) to 600 km (370 mi) altitude. Some radio waves (called skywaves) can bounce off it, thereby going around the world. It takes a lot of math and smart people to calculate this stuff. Everyone wants to extend their signal over the horizon.

    [​IMG]

    High Frequency (HF) is generally the highest signals that can take advantage of bouncing. This is why AM radio, at MF, has historically been long-ranged, especially at night when the lack of sun causes changes in the ionosphere. Higher frequencies just punch through the ionosphere into space instead of bouncing. Lower signals, like ELF, can curve with the ground – 'ground waves.'"
     
  12. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    China's Type 517M digital VHF AESA radar and superior HQ-9 digital signal processing (DSP)

    China has its own digital VHF AESA radar such as the Type 517M, which can be seen on the Type 052C Chinese Aegis destroyer.

    [​IMG]

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    China's HQ-9 is the equivalent of Russia's S-300 SAM. However, the Chinese HQ-9 has more advanced signal processing.

    HQ-9 and HQ-12 SAM System Battery Radars | Air Power Australia

    [​IMG]
    Excerpt: "Stills captured from a January, 2010, CCTV7 broadcast discussing the HQ-9 SAM system in operation, show a number of operator consoles in vans used with the system. Notable is the use of state-of-the-art AMCLD COTS display technology, and modern software based synthetic displays and mode selection. This is quite distinct from the CRT technology used in Russian built S-300PMU/PMU1 battery components."

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    Compare the advanced Chinese digital displays and functions for the HQ-9 (see above) with the Russian S-300 command center below with old CRT technology. The picture is a snapshot from the video "S-300 missile destroys 'enemy fighter' at Ashuluk."

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014

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