Britain may sell its Aircraft Carrier to India

Vladimir79

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Sevmash must also understand that IN is defying public opinion, media embarrassment and govt. critics to go all the way to make this deal mutually agreeable to both sides. The faster they deliver the carrier, better will the Indian people feel about Russia. The same Indian media who criticize this deal will quote, "The deal was worth the wait".
Russia would have been better off never making the deal. Where is the profit in giving a ship away? What profit do you make from only $700m in refit costs when you know it will be at least that? We should have sold it to Cochin, let them fix it and ship the equipment.

Who is UPI btw?
The source of the quoted article.
 

Zero

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$2.1 billion is more than fair for Gorshkov. They screwed up and should have to eat the cost. Sevmash can consider it the first lesson in carrier cost reduction if they ever hope to build carriers from the ground up. They have to learn sometime.

That quoted price of $3.36b for Prince Edward is bollocks, it is more like twice that. I guess those at UPI don't know what a £ is worth?
The price should be around $5b, but with time it should go around 5.5b. I do agree with you that 2.1b is a fair price.
 

bsn4u1985

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Nov 16/09: Amidst rumors of major British defense budget cuts, The Guardian reports that India has expressed formal interest in the 65,000t CVF/Queen Elizabeth class carrier program. The UK MoD is desperately looking for long-term budget savings, but canceling either of its full-size carriers at this point would be rival the cost of finishing them:

“According to senior defence sources, Whitehall officials are examining the feasibility of selling one of the carriers. It is understood they are planning to put forward the option as part of the government’s strategic defence review, which will start early next year…. “Selling a carrier is one very serious option,” a defence source said this weekend, although the government is a long way from committing to any sale. It could take between six and 12 months to reach a decision, he added.”

Each Queen Elizabeth carrier costs about $3.5 billion, and the negotiating difference around the Admiral Gorshkov is currently around $2.2+ billion. The question is whether India would be able to buy one of the CVF carriers for less than the UK paid, in order to offer the Treasury monies that it could not otherwise obtain from the CVF program. If a refund could be forthcoming from the Russians, and a deal done with the British, investing the Vikramaditya’s $3 billion could net India a comletely new ship rather than an old and refurbished one, with double the Gorshkov’s aerial complement. Key questions include whether those deals could be secured, and whether India is prepared to wait until 2016 for the British carrier, as opposed to 2013 (and sliding…) for Gorshkov.

Then again, $2.2 – $2.5 billion could also secure India an America class light carrier from Northrop Grumman, with a similar tonnage and aerial complement to the Gorshkov, but markedly better electronics and defensive systems. If India begins to look beyond Russia for options, Britain’s CVF program is not its sole alternative.

INS Vikramaditya: Waiting for Gorshkov…
 

Rage

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Russia would have been better off never making the deal. Where is the profit in giving a ship away? What profit do you make from only $700m in refit costs when you know it will be at least that? We should have sold it to Cochin, let them fix it and ship the equipment.
I doubt Cochin would have been able to fix it. And I highly doubt that it had the ability way back in 2004, having had no prior experience in carrier construction itself. They're good at what they do: which include "tankers, product carriers, bulk vessels, passenger carriers, high bollard pull tugs, air defense ships" and the like, but stripping the entire weaponry off the foredeck to make way for a STOBAR construction, refurbishing a hull, complex wire configurations, etc. is not something I would have considered within their scope of ability in 2004. Cochin may be only slightly better than Sevmash in executing on their commitments, but their level of expertise and experience in construction in comparison to Severodvinsk's shipyard remains dilettante.
 

Vladimir79

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I doubt Cochin would have been able to fix it. And I highly doubt that it had the ability way back in 2004, having had no prior experience in carrier construction itself. They're good at what they do: which include "tankers, product carriers, bulk vessels, passenger carriers, high bollard pull tugs, air defense ships" and the like, but stripping the entire weaponry off the foredeck to make way for a STOBAR construction, refurbishing a hull, complex wire configurations, etc. is not something I would have considered within their scope of ability in 2004. Cochin may be only slightly better than Sevmash in executing on their commitments, but their level of expertise and experience in construction in comparison to Severodvinsk's shipyard remains dilettante.
Sevmash's main task is building nuklear submarines, not refitting aircraft carriers. They have done a terrible job with Kuznetsov so Gorhskov refit wasn't any suprise. Cochin has more experience and they could take the work as they want it. Russian consultants could have been brought in for any difficulties and help installing any imported equipment. Indian electrical engineers are more than capable of figuring out the wiring and fitting details. With Russians standing watch, Indians are more than capable of refurbishing a hull and building a STOBAR flight deck. If and when Cochin ran into difficulties, it wouldn't be Russia to blame. We have suffered far more loss from this fiasco than just a couple billion dollars. The whole world is questioning our capability.
 

Rage

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Sevmash's main task is building nuklear submarines, not refitting aircraft carriers. They have done a terrible job with Kuznetsov so Gorhskov refit wasn't any suprise. Cochin has more experience and they could take the work as they want it. Russian consultants could have been brought in for any difficulties and help installing any imported equipment. Indian electrical engineers are more than capable of figuring out the wiring and fitting details. With Russians standing watch, Indians are more than capable of refurbishing a hull and building a STOBAR flight deck. If and when Cochin ran into difficulties, it wouldn't be Russia to blame. We have suffered far more loss from this fiasco than just a couple billion dollars. The whole world is questioning our capability.

Shucks, I wish I shared your confidence :D

But frankly, knowing our blithe bureaucracy and the pitiful state of our public sector industries in comparison to a much more efficient and robust private sector industry, I'm not so sure.

The government has recently allowed private shipyards to participate in tenders for the coast Guard and Navy, which should, for all intents and purposes, revolutionize shipbuilding in the country. But until then, I'd rather be content we procured our requirement from outside, atleast until the culmination of the first vessel of the P-75 A ADS class.
 

Maverick007

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One must realize that you are getting a next generation carrier at a most a little more than what we are paying for the Vikramaditya.........At roughly $3.2 billion..........There would offset caluses involved but ofcourse and once you agree on certain "details" with the british govt., they might just agree to pay a portion of the price in order to keep jobs in britain and also keep the requisite skillset of building something as complex as an aircraft carrier..........Something akin to what Germany offered to Israel when they needed submarine orders to keep the yard running at Thyssen Krupp
 

sob

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The biggest advantage for the IN with the QE2 would be the cutting edge R&D which the British are putting in this carrier.

IN designers would be able to study the ship, the technology going into it and this would help in the design of newer ADS by the CSL.
 

F-14

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if this deal goes through it will be 3 aircraft carrier that we will buy from the brits
 

p2prada

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Shucks, I wish I shared your confidence :D

But frankly, knowing our blithe bureaucracy and the pitiful state of our public sector industries in comparison to a much more efficient and robust private sector industry, I'm not so sure.

The government has recently allowed private shipyards to participate in tenders for the coast Guard and Navy, which should, for all intents and purposes, revolutionize shipbuilding in the country. But until then, I'd rather be content we procured our requirement from outside, atleast until the culmination of the first vessel of the P-75 A ADS class.
Vlad is right. Cochin is more than capable for refitting the Gorshkov. The main problem is Gorshkov's draft is way too much for Cochin to handle. The only port that can handle Gorshkov is INS Kadamba and its a military base.
 

Rahul Singh

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One must realize that you are getting a next generation carrier at a most a little more than what we are paying for the Vikramaditya.........At roughly $3.2 billion..........
Be realistic! $3.2 billion is just the price tag for today. By the time deal is finalized, the cost will naturally swell-up like it happened in case of Vikramaditya. I totally agree with Vladimir, when he says the actual price of QE will be much above $5-6 billion. Not to forget that IN will need weapons on board of its choice. They too will increase the price. There is no clear choice on suitable fighters. There are hell of things which will squeeze our pocket. If we are ready to pay for nothing then who cares. But i am sure that IN will construct, not import, if she feels a need for something like QE.
 

Sridhar

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'Speculation' of aircraft carrier sale to India
An article in The Guardian suggests that the MOD is considering selling one of the two future aircraft carriers to India to ease the strain on the Defence Budget. This is unfounded speculation. There has been no approach by the Indian Navy to the MOD about purchasing a future aircraft carrier

Defence News: Defence in the Media: 17 November 2009
 

Rahul Singh

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So, hot gas started getting diffused. Good for India, IN and DFI's bandwidth.
 

bengalraider

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A newspaper article being refuted by a Blog. Wont buy it. Why will the Gaurdian have to explicitly speculate on Indian Navy's interest without proof?Has MoD has officially not refuted this article?
that's the official blog of the British MoD "we are not getting the prince of wales"
 

Dark Sorrow

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the angled deck is a luxury not a necessity for catobar. If required, the present config can be changed without major modification to the carrier in terms of having an angled deck.
Dude angled deck are necessary for catobar. If angled deck is not present the amount of landing strip present is significantly reducded.
 

Dark Sorrow

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If IN decides to go with JSF then wouldn't we be required to pay loyalty to each and every patner in that program if we wish to go for licenced production or ToT. Without inhouse production facility getting those jets will be useless. Wouldn't this increase of procrument dramatically!!! Currently except JSF i don't see any aircraft worth flying from that AC, taking in account the harriers are to be phased out 5-6 years. To end with would it be worth buying that AC.
 

Sridhar

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Let me close this thread as the speculations have been put to an end after the official denial.

We will reopen it after we have some solid proof of information that there is some expression of interest by India or atleast the carrier is on offer.
 

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