BRIC, SCO & Othere in Solving India China Equation

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by I-G, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    India is already alert and i do think that using BRICS and even SCO to solve regional disputes .. Chinese are changing their whole policy .
     
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  3. jmj_overlord

    jmj_overlord Regular Member

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    you mean chinese solving disputes with the help of BRICS and other international organisations or india solving disputes ?
     
  4. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Anybody here advocating for third party mediation in Indo-China disputes should remember the aftermath of the 1962 war with China.

    NAM or Non-Aligned Movement was essentially the Brain-child of Jawaharlal Nehru ( and Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser & the Indonesian president Sukarno). It was also India's shining example of leadership of the third world, the crowning glory of its foreign policy.

    Post 1962, the entire NAM sided with China against India, leaving India in the cold. The Western bloc kept a quiet, solemn front, but laughed behind our backs at the weakness and sheer idealism of the Indian foreign policy. They had, after all, been at the receiving end of NAM's criticism and the idealistic lecture of the Indian diplomats.

    We were taught one blunt lesson then: Weakness is never respected. The strong find many followers, the weak: None.

    If 50 years down the line we choose to forget/ignore what we learnt so painfully, we'd be rushing headlong to another wreck, another repeat of history.
     
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  5. Vishwarupa

    Vishwarupa Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    This is the same reason i meant India should show guts with china. India should raise all these issues with china & make china agree on not to repeat these thing again & India should ask chinese what all confidence building measure they have taken against. Also i believe India & china have agreed to have road connect through BD, Myanmmar & china. What the heck is this.
    Also You are comparing Americans with china & Taliban with India.
     
  6. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Both China and India are using BRICS and SCO platform to solve regional disputes and engaging in diplomacy .
     
  7. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    I just don't understand why you think that Indian National security agency doesn't deal with guts ?
    Seems working on new route for Chinese products inside India or vice versa .


    Not at all .. it was just answer to you about Ostrich syndrome

     
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Like India does with Pakistan and have more people killed on the LC and within?

    Any links or reference to this arrangement?
     
  9. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Engaging with China and Pakistan is not so easy as both are involved in proxy wars against India . Its better to engage with Chinese then the Pakistanis because Pakistanis are not stable and they will collapse soon .



    Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO): The Indian Standpoint by Teshu Singh

    India - China Chronicle - July -2012 - Remove Non-Tariff Barriers
     
  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    It is the typical apologists refrain - Pakistan will collapse soon.

    We have been hearing about it for long, but it will never come to pass since it will be shored up as a bulwark to India.

    In geopolitics, to be supreme, you have to have conflicts going and bolster the weaker one to take on the stronger one and keep the balance of the chaos so that they are kept busy and cannot consolidate.



    Another day dream!

    What exactly has been the result?
     
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  11. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Its reality .. Daily tens of Pakistani soldiers are dieing in NWFP ..

    At least six FC men killed in Peshawar attack - DAWN.COM

    6 troops killed in checkpost attack in Peshawar, NW Pakistan CCTV News - CNTV English

    23 Pakistani soldiers including SSG commandos killed in Tirah valley fight against TTP | The News Tribe

    Six dead in Peshawar gun battle; airport back to normal

    try to follow the news properly .. daily you will read about deaths of Pakistani soldiers , attacks on check posts , Military head quarters etc .

    But in case of Proxy wars .. its doesn't works out .


    First its with Investment

    China to Invest $160 Billion in Andhra Pradesh - International Business Times

    China’s direct investment in India has increased seventeen fold from 2006 to 2011 | The BRICS Post
     
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    And whose fault it is?

    And anyway, again your selective half baked contentions are at play.

    The armed conflict began in 2004.

    Who asked the Pakistan Govt to obey the US like vassals and hunt for for al-Qaeda fighters in Pakistan's mountainous Waziristan area (in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas)?

    This escalated into armed resistance. Pakistan's actions were presented as its contribution to the international War on Terror

    The duplicity of Pakistan can be seen, wherein they go hunting in FATA (that is loosely under Pakistan) and on the other hand give refuge to Osama bin Laden.

    The Constitution of Pakistan governs the FATA through the same rules which were framed by the British in 1901 as Frontier Crimes Regulations (FCR). The Jurisdiction of Supreme Court and High Court of Pakistan does not extend to FATA and Provincially Administered Tribal Areas (PATA), according to Article 247 and Article 248, of existing 1973 Constitution of Pakistan. The Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Provincial Assembly has no power in FATA, and can only exercise its powers in PATA that are part of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.

    The Pakistan Govt tried to bring Federally Administered Tribal Areas becoming a province of Pakistan. That surely was good ground to get the hackles up of the Pastuns. Further, there was .strong opposition to any proposals to the Federally Administered Tribal Areas merging with any other province. Parliamentarians from tribal areas had taken strong exception to a resolution adopted by the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa assembly asking for merger of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas with their province.

    So, why are you surprised that the area will not be restive, beyond the US drone attacks?

    And FATA is not Pakistan sans Punjab. There are others too!



    Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (the TTP), alternatively referred to as the Pakistani Taliban, is an umbrella organization of various Islamist militant groups based in the northwestern Federally Administered Tribal Areas along the Afghan border in Pakistan.

    And this means Pakistan is in a turmoil because all people of all regions are at each other's throat?

    And so Pakistan is merely Punjab and is about to collapse?

    Proxy War and non state actors are there on their own trip?

    You indirectly hinted you read news papers (as in the above quote). I am not aware of which newspaper you read.

    However, you may not have read so regularly mentioned that Pakistan uses these so called non state actors as their 'strategic assets'.

    Just to help you on your way to understand that, please read this link:

    Pakistan uses militants as strategic assets

    Pakistan has cultivated militant and terrorist groups, making them ‘strategic assets’ in hopes of using them to maintain stability in the region and balance relations with India, Iran, Afghanistan and now the United States.
    Pakistan’s relations with India have been strained since the country was founded in 1947. One major issue of contention between India and Pakistan is the Kashmir state, with both countries claiming ownership over the Kashmir region. Although both countries have nuclear weapons and have engaged in numerous conflicts over the region, India currently appears to have the upper hand militarily, with a greater ability to develop and acquire weapons.
    To counter the traditional military strength of India, Pakistan uses its militant and terrorist groups. Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), a Pakistan-backed militant group, conducted attacks on Mumbai on 26 November 2008, killing more than a hundred people and injuring hundred others. The group is also operational in its Jehadi activities in Indian occupied Kashmir. One of its main goals is to eradicate Indian occupation of Kashmir.

    Pakistan uses militants as strategic assets | Washington Times Communities



    That is because of direct trade talks or through SCO?

    Our trade with Russia is also through SCO?

    You sure can stretch your imagination and of that there is no doubt, to link disparate issues to suit your purpose.

    One could even say all this is because of the UN bonhomie!
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
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  13. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    This conflict is going on since a very long time because of the Durrand Line which is not recognized by the Pasthun tribes including the Taliban .



    Pakistan establishment gone there for their own benefit which was to settle the Durrand Line dispute .


    The Durand Line was demarcated by the British and signed into a treaty in 1893 with the Afghan ruler Amir Abdur Rehman Khan. The treaty was to stay in force for a 100-year period.This disputed land was legally to be returned to Afghanistan in 1993 after the 100 year old Durand Treaty expired, similar to how Hong Kong was returned to China. Kabul has refused to renew the Durand Line treaty since 1993 when it expired,

    Pakistani establishment wants to renew the Durrand line treaty which the Afghans doesnt want .


    Drone attacks are nothing but to assist Pakistani army against the Pashtun tribes because Pakistani army cant move from Kashmir front .






    it all started after the Pakistanis were trying to fence the Durrand line in 2001 in the name of checking Afghan refugees and this led to the revolt by the NWFP Pashtun tribes against it .

    Pakistan may fence Durand Line

    The concept of Pakistan is a total failure and nothing but domination of Punjabis .


    Pakistan is using proxy war against India since a very long time


    I am aware of this .. first it started in Punjab then in Kashmir , now the Pakistanis agents are exploiting Indian Muslims and all this is making lifes of Afghan Muslims, Balochis Muslims, Kashmir Muslims and Indian Muslims a big hell . And even spoiling the name of Islam .. the so called Islamic bomb of Pakistan is a big curse for Muslims of Sub Continent .



    India is moving away from Russia and working for a regional alliance with China, Afghanistan and central Asia . Because the immediate danger for China is India and for India its China . And both wants to get the natural resources for their development .
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Old hat.

    Universally known.

    It is time you keep yourself abreast with the happenings of the world, rather than just give personal opinions and drag the thread aimlessly.

    Pakistan went into FATA for reasons to take control and abrogate the old legal dispensation that was inherited by it as the legatee of the British and consolidate the authority of Pakistan.

    FATA was captured by the British during the Raj days. However, they could not bring it totally under control. Wise and wily that the British were, they allowed the tribal leaders to rule the area on their own writ, but to ensure some control and ensure that British interests were not harmed, they brought in the Frontier Crimes Regulations (FCR).

    Cut to the contemporary times.

    The Taliban emerged in this region in 2001 and took control of the area, where Pakistan'seven nominal control was lost.

    The Pakistan Govt to exercise greater control, tabled a Bill to merge FATA with Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Assembly.

    This was opposed.

    Tribal lawmakers oppose move to merge Fata with KP
    Tribal lawmakers oppose move to merge Fata with KP - DAWN.COM

    Therefore, it was not for the Durand Line that Pakistan wanted to control FATA with greater authority.

    Pakistan, each time, has rejected any claims on it by Afghanistan.

    Hong Kong was on a 99 year lease and not into perpetuity.

    It was only Kowloon that had been ceded to the United Kingdom in perpetuity,

    Get your facts right.

    The jury is still out on the legality of the Durand Line.

    The Afghanistan view is that Durand Line Agreements Collapsed with British India and this was also stated before August 14, 1947, the day Pakistan attained independence.

    Yet, the “Vienna Convention on Succession of States in Respect of Treaties (VCSSRT).” Article 11 of VCSSRT explicitly states that succession of states cannot impact (a) international border agreed upon in result of an agreement, and (b) rights and obligations concerning international border created through an agreement. Thus, under this agreement, the cessation of British India and birth of Pakistan as its successor in the northwestern region of the Indian subcontinent does not affect the legality of the border.


    What is there to renew?

    Links please.


    Once again, I ask "So, why are you surprised that the area will not be restive, beyond the US drone attacks?"

    If the Drone attacks only helps the Pakistan Army and the local tribal bear the brunt, should the local tribal not be restive and hostile towards the authorities?


    The fencing was done with the explicit instructions of the US.

    It was to stop the influx of Talibans into Afghanistan from FATA.

    The Pakistan would give the spin that it was to stop Afghans entering Pakistan is but obvious to be expected.

    You cannot expect Pakistan to indicate that it is a vassal of the US, can you?

    Who gains from stopping trans border movement?

    Pakistan?

    How?

    There has been this transborder movement amongst Pashtuns throughout history and none objected.

    So, how come it has become serious only of now?

    It is the US which benefited from having a fence constructed since the Talibans could not come into Afghanistan from FATA. Same as what the fence was doing for India and Israel.

    .

    And other people of Pakistan joined because they are stupid, right?


    The issue was that the terrorists were 'strategic assets' of Pakistan, a fact that you felt otherwise IIRC.

    I am too tired of having to trawl posts for your oneliners, since I discover you are a butterfly flitting from flower to flower leaving behind a pretzel like confusion of thoughts and facts.


    .

    If you are aware, then why did you write otherwise to suggest it was not so?


    There you go again!

    You had spoken that India China ties were all because of SCO.

    And I asked - That is because of direct trade talks or through SCO?

    And see your reply.

    What has bilateral relations to do with Indian moving away from Russia, and so compelled to chum up to If India Afghanistan or Central Asia?

    If India has to have trade with the US, does it have to go through the NATO or the EU?
     
  15. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Most of the people are not aware of this .





    These are not personal opinions , i am following international affairs since the last 10 years and have finished journalism in international affairs .

    You are just trying to say that only , which i am saying .


    Taliban was already in that region by 1996

    It was for durrand line only and was mainly to divide the pasthun tribes into 2 segments

    Because it means end of Pakistan and i dont think Pakistan will stand more because Americans have already changed its policy towards Pakistan and on that Afghans are directly engaging with Chinese .



    That Durrand line treaty has already crossed 100 years and Afghans still doesn't agree on it .





    The Durand Line was demarcated by the British and signed into a treaty in 1893 with the Afghan ruler Amir Abdur Rehman Khan. The treaty was to stay in force for a 100-year period. According to Afrasiab Khattak, a political analyst, the areas from the Khayber Agency Northwards to Chitral, however, remained un-demarcated.

    This disputed land was legally to be returned to Afghanistan in 1993 after the 100 year old Durand Treaty expired, similar to how Hong Kong was returned to China. Kabul has refused to renew the Durand Line treaty since 1993 when it expired, Throughout the last nine years, Pakistan has tried to get Afghan Warlords and Taliban to sign a renewal contract of the Treaty, and thankfully they didn’t not fall for the treachery of Pakistan. One of the reasons Pakistan faced problems with the Kabul rulers right from its inception was Kabul's claim over the North West frontier Province. (NWFP) Kabul never accepted that line or the fact that the NWFP is part of Pakistan.
    Afghanistan's Web Site | Durand Line


    Locals are already against the authorities and now are attacking beyond their territory . the attacks on mosques, Churches, Schools etc are nothing but to put pressure on authorities to stop destroying their villages . whenever Drone attacks kill people , there is a bombing within weeks of that drone attack . And Pakistani authorities are not capable to stop it because its a local revolt similar like a civil war .






    Americans will leave the region one way or another way and the fencing was done by the Pakistanis to further keep their grip on the Pashtun areas which has been completely rejected by the Pakistani pashtuns . This issue is serious since decades even during the cold war it was a big problem and even now its the same .



    Pakistani establishment did tried to convince Taliban to give up Durrand line but that hasnt worked out , This problem was hanging there even before the Americans came in the region . Now it seems Americans are already chagning policy towards Pakistan and making Indians and Afghanistan to work out together after seeing the Pakistani relations with the Chinese .

    .
    What was the concept of Pakistan by Choudhry Rahmat Ali ?

    Letter P for Punjab. A for Afghan, as the NWFP is known even today as Afghan, K for Kashmir. S for Sind, and Tan for Baluchistan.

    So what we are seeing , Afghans , Baluchis and even Kashmirs doesnt want to be part of this concept .



    Pakistani establishment are just using the so called terrorists to keep Pakistan united .

    First thing , i do know what i am talking but it seems you are unable to get my point or wantedly trying to get attention .


    .

    If you are aware, then why did you write otherwise to suggest it was not so?




    There you go again!

    You had spoken that India China ties were all because of SCO.

    And I asked - That is because of direct trade talks or through SCO?

    And see your reply.

    What has bilateral relations to do with Indian moving away from Russia, and so compelled to chum up to If India Afghanistan or Central Asia?

    If India has to have trade with the US, does it have to go through the NATO or the EU?
     
  16. I-G

    I-G Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    its not just SCO but even BRICS ... Russia is trying to make it into military alliance but the reality is this that no one trust on Russia .



    Russians are not trusted ally , they have always let all the other nations down . They will again move towards the Europeans as the Europeans are using Race card .

    India is a bit cautious even with Americans, French because of the policy adopted by these powers in Middle east and Africa which is restricting Indians . I
     
  17. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    You underestimate the intelligence and knowledge of the posters on the DFI.



    It is not adequate to read newspapers for the last 10 years. One must also read domestic and foreign commentaries that are in magazines devolving around international issues.

    Doing a course in journalism, does not a journalist make or is it an Alladin's lamp that brings forth knowledge.

    The fact that you were not aware that, while Hong Kong was on a 99 years lease, Kowloon had been ceded to the United Kingdom in perpetuity, does indicate how much you know about international affairs, notwithstanding your claim that doing a course in journalism international affairs, implied in that meaning that it has given you all that was to know on international affairs.

    Likewise, you did not know why the Pakistani Army was sent to FATA and the background that Pakistan had a loose control over FATA, still operating under the law left behind by the British.



    Not at all.

    You were saying Pakistan establishment gone there for their own benefit which was to settle the Durrand Line dispute

    There is lots of difference being in FATA to control the Taliban at the behest of the US and settle the Durand Line.

    You seem to have a selective amnesia, which is most exasperating since it makes me trawl the thread to get the the details.

    Do quit being some sort a humming bird.

    Since I am not too sure if you know, I would like to inform you that a humming bird. The fly at great speed and can also fly backwards.




    The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was establishment in September 1996 with Kandahar as the capital and Mullah Omar as the head. It took over Afghanistan to govern it by Islamic Law. It was recognised only by Pakistan, UAE and Saudi Arabia.

    However, like I said - The Taliban emerged in this region in 2001 and took control of the area, where Pakistan's even nominal control was lost.

    Note the operative words - 'emerged in this region in 2001 and took control of the area' and 'where Pakistan's even nominal control was lost.'.

    In other words, Taliban in Afghanistan was benign to Pakistan when it formed. It is obvious if Pakistan recognised the Taliban, then it was surely not against or a threat to Pakistan.

    However, once the US attacked in 2001 and the Taliban govt was overthrown by the US, this coterie called Taliban retreated into FATA and built a base to sent Taliban fighters into Afghanistan against the US. Hence, 'emerged'. At the point of repeating myself since you will again be evasive, if indeed as you say, the Taliban were already in FATA in 1996, what were they doing? Fighting the US? They were not there in Afghanistan then. The US came in 2001. Fighting the Pakistanis? Whatever for? Fighting the hand that recognised them when the world had spurned the Taliban?

    So, please get your facts and logic right and not waste time and bandwidth.




    Just see your response above to my (as below)

    Where is the connection?



    Didn't get you?

    I had said
    It being abrogating the Durand Line.





    It appears you don't understand international law and relationship, even though you claim to have done a course in journalism in international relations.

    Ask your Professor to explain the e “Vienna Convention on Succession of States in Respect of Treaties. I reproduce it again for your assistanve.



    On November 12, 1893, the Durand Line Agreement was reached.

    Afghan rulers reaffirmed in the 1919, 1921, and 1930 treaties to accept the Indo-Afghan frontier.

    Where is it written that this Treaty was valid for 100 years, or any time limit given.



    How does it reply to my post that I reproduce as below.


    Fencing was done to prevent Talibans trained in FATA to go into Afghanistan to take on the ISAF and Taliban returning for rest and refit and also take on the Pakistani Army for permitting Drone attack and mounting attacks on them at the behest of the US.

    Why is the Pakistani Army attacking the Pashtuns? Because they don't like the Pashtun people? Not at all. There was no animosity against the Pashtuns before the American came to Afghanistan in 2001 and overthrew the Taliban. Till then, Pakistan was an ally of the Taliban. So, how come the change of heart? If one is aware of international affairs, one would know that the Pakistani Army and the Pak Govt, at the behest of the US, were told to rein in the Taliban and prevent them going into Afghanistan, and hence the fence and the attacks on the Pashtuns in FATA.

    Now, Pakistan is backing the Taliban in the talks in Afghanistan over the Govt formation in Afghanistan after the US leaves.

    Read this

    So,. when Pakistan is all for new Afghanistan, then where is the Fence being required to 'by the Pakistanis to further keep their grip on the Pashtun areas '?

    If there is no hostile activities does one require a Fence 'to keep a firm grip on the Pashtun areas'? Grip over peaceful Pashtuns?



    Old hat - Afghanistan and even Taliban not agreeing to the Durand Line,. Have mentioned it many a time with links on this very forum.

    And once again, what is the connection of your reply to my post as below on which you have replied?
    [I



    Letter P for Punjab. A for Afghan, as the NWFP is known even today as Afghan, K for Kashmir. S for Sind, and Tan for Baluchistan.[/quote]

    If that was the concept for Pakistan, then how is it that you say it is only for Punjabis?

    You should really make up your mind and not go round and round like Tony Lumpkin



    Really?

    Balochis were never for Pakistan.

    They had even got their Independence well before India and Pakistan - 11 Aug 1947.




    So, terrorist unite people?

    How?

    That is really a new and an earth shattering theory!

    So, you reject that terrorist organisations of Pakistan or so called 'non state actors' are being used by Pakistan as 'strategic assets'.

    Well, you will be the rare one who says so.

    Good to know that you know more than the Pakistanis themselves know.

    Here is what Zardari, the Pak President, said:

    He used 'tactical' but the world calls it 'strategic'.

    Strategic = relating to the identification of long-term or overall aims and interests and the means of achieving them

    Tactical =relating to or constituting actions carefully planned to gain a specific military end.

    Now, is it a long term issue or just for a specific end?

    But then you know more about Pakistan than its President knows of Pakistan!



    If you did know what you are talking about, please see the places in this very post, where I have shown you meandering like a runaway river, your replies having no connection to what the post you are replying to has raised!

    Attention?

    Well actually I am not a Johnny Come Lately as you.

    The Statistics speaks for me.

    Have a good day!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
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  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: PM says 'world notices when India and China shake hands'

    Let us once again show that you do not reply to anything and instead go on a trip of your own.

    What you have replied, does it answer my post (reproduced below)?



    A little bird told you this?

    Commenting on the war drills, 10 Corps Commander Lt Gen NS Ghei said, "For the first time we have integrated both the troops together. The Russian tanks operated under Indian commander and vice versa. This has been a good improvement."

    The joint military drill INDRA 2013 has already witnessed Exercise Vindhural (derived from Vindhya mountains of India and Ural mountains of Russia) where troops of both the nations were engaged in combat shooting, clearing villages and capturing the assumed rebels.

    Terming the war drills with Russian troops as a success, the Corps Commander said, "The armoured and mechanised infantry of the army is good and our training standards are excellent. The joint exercise was done under tough circumstances. The firings were accurate despite that. We have full faith on the mechanised divisions."
    Indian, Russian armies undertake Exercise Gangneva to counter South Sudan-like rebellion - The Economic Times

    And now India and Russia are in the desert undertaking Exercise Indira.

    Already naval exercises have happened.

    Odd, what?

    Doing all this with a nation India does not trust as per you?



    Really?

    How?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
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