Brazil Wants to Buy Russian Anti-Aircraft Weaponry

average american

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You are ridiculous, first you claim that this is fault of Russian tanks, but thermal sights and night vision devices are not made by Russians but by French and Israelis, so who's fault it is? I say definetely not Russians fault, but original manufacturers.

I can say that Polish Army also purchased some Israeli made products and we also had problems with their quality in cold wheater conditions. The only working good Israeli product were Spike ATGM's.
Thats ridiculous.

If something dont work for what you want you should not buy it, and its up to you to determine if it works or not. These are not devices you plug in an play,,they are part of a complext targeting system for tanks that amount to about 20 percent of the cost of the tanks, so I expect they came with the system from Russia and I blame India for buying a system that does not work from Russia. It also makes me wonder if the thermal systems on such equipment as helicopters is defective.

Did you expect the French company to know if it would work or not on Russian and Indian Tanks,

The US has had this equipment for 30 years and no problems, look at the 91 gulf war and battle of 73 easting,,, youtube.
 
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Damian

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If something dont work for what you want you should not buy it, and its up to you to determine if it works or not.
Somebody screwed up with tests.

These are not devices you plug in an play,,they are part of a complext targeting system for tanks that amount to about 20 percent of the cost of the tanks, so I expect they came with the system from Russia and I blame India for buying a system that does not work from Russia.
1. These are plug and play devices, because thermal camera does not have any impact on fire control system as a system, it is just a thermal camera that shows thermal image, nothing more.

It also makes me wonder if the thermal systems on such equipment as helicopoters is defective.
Every system can break up due to defects in original design or because of poor quality control during production. It does not depend on platform.

Did you expect the French company to know if it would work or not on Russian and Indian Tanks,
They should know. Russian bought production licence from France and placed production on Bellarus in company Peleng that was manufacturing optical devices during Soviet Times, as far as I know, nobody never said a bad word about quality of their products, and Russians never had problems with these thermal sights. Neither any other country using T-90 series tanks in hot climate like Algeria, have reported any problems with thermal sights. It seems that only Indians had problems.

The US has had this equipment for 30 years and no problems, look at the 91 gulf war and battle of 73 easting,,, youtube.
This is what I said earlier, it is not a problem with a tank and the lack of air conditioning, M1 Abrams tanks received air conditioning system in M1A2SEP v1 this means in 1999.

This is definetely problem with French and Israeli made thermal cameras, not Russian made tanks.

BTW TIS used in older M1 variants was reliable but also had very poor image quality compared to WBG-X used in Leopard 2's or TTS used in M60A3, TIS had been replaced in 1990's by much better 2nd Generation FLIR that have image quality comparable or better than WBG-X and TTS. In 1999 and XXI century, M1A2SEP and upgraded M1A1's with M1A2SEP FCS elements, received another unspecified improvement for thermal sights.
 
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average american

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thermal camera does not have any impact on fire control system as a system, it is just a thermal camera that shows thermal image, nothing more.

Think about this then,,, what good are they,,,,you could use the thermal camera to see that there is an enemy out there but you cant shoot it becaue its not part of the targeting control system. Does that make sense to you. I think the French have allways made the Thermal sights for the Russians.
 
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W.G.Ewald

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Illusions commend themselves to us because they save us pain and allow us to enjoy pleasure instead. We must therefore accept it without complaint when they sometimes collide with a bit of reality against which they are dashed to pieces. ~Sigmund Freud
Exactly why the low-information voters in the last US presidential election made the choice they did.:pokerface:

OK, that's off-topic and political. Couldn't help myself.
 

Damian

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Think about this then,,, what good are they,,,,you could use the thermal camera to see that there is an enemy out there but you cant shoot it becaue its not part of the targeting control system. Does that make sense to you.
You obviously don't have idea about vehicles fire control system. Thermal cameras are replaced instantly in different fire control systems. Polish Drawa-1T FCS use Israeli thermal cameras, and that FCS was never designed to use specifically israeli thermal camera.

I dont think Russian tanks had thermal sights. If I am not mistaken they used night vision equipment. If you can fight something about about Russian tanks and thermal sights I would like to see it.
Then read some goddamn book, or even a proffesional article.

T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
T-90 Main Battle Tank
T-90S Main Battle Tank - Army Technology

T-90 use thermal sights.

Other T tanks also use thermal sights, for example T-64BM Bulat use K01-T01ER Buran-E thermal sight, T-80U and T-80UD subvariants use thermal sights, T-84 series use thermal sights, modernized T-72B use thermal sight.



Here you have elements of fire control system used in T-64BM Bulat, the one TPN-4SR use K01-T01ER Buran-E thermal camera.
 
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average american

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Then why did 80 percent of Indians tanks end up blind if the Russians had thermal equipment that was any good.

After the failure of own Agava-2 Thermal imagers russians realized that it woulf be cheaper to use already proven and mass-produced french equipment. In return France bought Krasnopol-M laser-guided 155mm artillery rounds and also offers a VEB armored car with Kornet-launchers.
 
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Damian

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Bad quality control during production, or even bad maintnance or even lack of maintnance, there can be plenty of reasons.
 

average american

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Then why did 80 percent of Indians tanks end up blind if the Russians had thermal equipment that was any good.

After the failure of own Agava-2 Thermal imagers russians realized that it woulf be cheaper to use already proven and mass-produced french equipment. In return France bought Krasnopol-M laser-guided 155mm artillery rounds and also offers a VEB armored car with Kornet-launchers.
Then the French equipment did not work in hot weather, and then from there.
 

p2prada

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Neither any other country using T-90 series tanks in hot climate like Algeria, have reported any problems with thermal sights. It seems that only Indians had problems.
Catherine wasn't tropicalized before delivery. All problems on T-90s were fixed on Indian tanks before the Algerians got them. Same with Su-30MKI.

Catherine issue was fixed a long time ago. Problems were first reported in the media in 2004 and there was no follow up report about it being fixed within the year. Silly jingo journalists never followed up and even in 2010 they kept reporting sh!t that the Catherines were still breaking down.

Lets blame our all powerful media for this subterfuge.
 

p2prada

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Then why did 80 percent of Indians tanks end up blind if the Russians had thermal equipment that was any good.
This is your failure in comprehending.

Indian tanks did not become blind, they were always blind. We had the old T-72s which were contracted for in the 70s. They are in the process of being upgraded with thermals today. They did not have any thermal cameras in the beginning. We were a poor country in the previous century, so we couldn't afford these systems. Pakistan was no better, inferior as a matter of fact, with their old Chinese, British and American tanks, so it wasn't such a big deal for us.

The other 20% include the new T-90s which came with thermals and the army has no issues with it.

Can you show any proof of that what Russia sold Iraq clearly didnt work ,, nor the one they sold Syria. Sams did some damage 50 years ago,, but countrer measures are lot more sopisticated now days.
Let me make it very simple for you.

Has the US ever attacked the Soviet Union or Russia?

Never.

So what is your proof for all the half-assed links that you have been posting?

How is this a proof of Russian technology?

The best America and Israel has to offer against the worst Russia has to offer?
 

asianobserve

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How is this a proof of Russian technology?

The best America and Israel has to offer against the worst Russia has to offer?

Well Syrian air defense is solely Russia sourced. If Israel can sneak in and out then (remember how they bombed the Syrian nuclear reactor site) then it don't inspire much confidence on Russian air defense systems guarding Syrian air space.
 

average american

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This is your failure in comprehending.

Indian tanks did not become blind, they were always blind. We had the old T-72s which were contracted for in the 70s. They are in the process of being upgraded with thermals today. They did not have any thermal cameras in the beginning. We were a poor country in the previous century, so we couldn't afford these systems. Pakistan was no better, inferior as a matter of fact, with their old Chinese, British and American tanks, so it wasn't such a big deal for us.

The other 20% include the new T-90s which came with thermals and the army has no issues with it.



Let me make it very simple for you.

Has the US ever attacked the Soviet Union or Russia?

Never.

So what is your proof for all the half-assed links that you have been posting?



How is this a proof of Russian technology?

The best America and Israel has to offer against the worst Russia has to offer?
Least I can provide sources, you have only opinons, everyone has those.
 

Damian

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Least I can provide sources, you have only opinons, everyone has those.
Source is not some random internet site.

Well Syrian air defense is solely Russia sourced. If Israel can sneak in and out then (remember how they bombed the Syrian nuclear reactor site) then it don't inspire much confidence on Russian air defense systems guarding Syrian air space.
There is a difference however. The effectiveness of systems depends on their own quality, crew quality and commanding element quality. Syrians have very old AA system, low quality of crews and commanding element.
 

asianobserve

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Source is not some random internet site.



There is a difference however. The effectiveness of systems depends on their own quality, crew quality and commanding element quality. Syrians have very old AA system, low quality of crews and commanding element.

Syria's air defense is key to Assad's courage - English pravda.ru

The Syrian air defense has a little over 900 launchers of anti-aircraft missiles, of which the vast majority are C-75 and C-125 units. The Syrian sky is protected by 48-200M launchers with a range of up to 200 kilometers. During deployment they are protected by 60 launchers SAM "Wasp" grouped into 14 batteries. The defense also has 60 plants SAM "Wasp" and about 4 thousand pieces of artillery. The country has a North and South defense zones controlled from three command centers fully equipped with computers, and the armed forces have 60 thousand people, Military News reported. This arsenal is twice as powerful as Gaddafi's.

The only disadvantage of a powerful air defense of Assad's complex, according to military analysts, is poorly trained personnel working with sophisticated technology. Russia is providing help in this area as well. The Guardian on December 23 published an article entitled "Russian military presence in Syria poses challenge to US-led intervention."

According to confidential sources of the newspaper, Russian military advisers arrived in Syria, and will advise the Syrian troops on installation and implementation of new missiles "ground-to-air."

Syrian Air Defense Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Syrian Air Defense Force is an independent command within the Syrian Armed Forces. It has been merged into and then separated from both the Syrian Arab Army and the Syrian Arab Air Force. The Syrian Air Defense Force controls twenty-five air defense brigades, each with six SAM batteries. It is equipped with 650 static SA-2, SA-3 and SA-5 launchers, 200 mobile SA-6 and SA-11 launchers and over 4,000 anti-aircraft guns ranging from 23mm to 100mm in caliber. There are also two independent SA-8 and SA-10 SAM Regiments, each with four batteries of 48 mobile SAMs.

In 1982,19 batteries of 20 tank batteries—each battery consisting of five tanks and each tank equipped with three SAM-6 missiles—were wiped out in a single Israeli airstrike. Despite decades of technological innovations in the Israeli and Western militaries, Syria still relies heavily on Soviet-era relics to defend itself. This is especially true in the north of the country. The government chose to concentrate its newer hardware in the west and south of Syria to guard against Israel, not that that has worked particularly well either: Israeli jets have penetrated Syrian airspace three times in the last few decades without incurring any damage to their planes. The 2007 sortie destroyed a nuclear reactor in Deir Ezzour.[3]
 
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average american

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Source is not some random internet site.



There is a difference however. The effectiveness of systems depends on their own quality, crew quality and commanding element quality. Syrians have very old AA system, low quality of crews and commanding element.
It seems like every body has that problem if they use soviet or Russian equipment.
 

p2prada

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Well Syrian air defense is solely Russia sourced. If Israel can sneak in and out then (remember how they bombed the Syrian nuclear reactor site) then it don't inspire much confidence on Russian air defense systems guarding Syrian air space.
Like how the American and European air defense systems helped the Pakistanis in the OBL raid?

There is a huge difference in capability when we compare Russian defenses with a country using some ancient Russian defenses.

You can say there is a generation gap in capability.

It is still funny how Russian capability is bench marked based on how their previous generation systems compare to the latest the Americans and Israelis have to offer. It doesn't even compute to me.

Whatever happened to India vs Pakistan comparison for American vs Russian systems? Everybody forgets that. People find America vs Iraq a better comparison instead, when the the budget and training difference is like the one between heaven and earth.

Syria's defenses are inferior to Indian air defense by a decent margin. Indian air defense is over 20-30 years old in tech and a generation behind other powers. Even penetrating our defenses is not a benchmark for Russian defense systems, you can say we have the next best Russian based air defense outside of Russia, after China and even China isn't particularly impressive considering they want to import the decade old S-400.

Even S-300 is a previous generation weapon for Russia today. It is currently an obsolete system in Russia. Syrian defenses are a generation behind that. So, you can see for yourself that any comparison is moot.

Israel is sh!t scared of the S-300. They fought tooth and nail to avoid Russia selling it to Iran. Forget even talking about S-400 and S-500.

There were performance benchmarks in the ABM treaty that the US has not yet reached. The S-400 reaches those benchmarks, the S-500 overshoots the benchmarks. THAAD and Patriot are nowhere close to what's being planned for S-500.
 

asianobserve

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Like how the American and European air defense systems helped the Pakistanis in the OBL raid?
Of course Americans can exploit their own air defense systems. No surprise there... :shocked:

Israel is sh!t scared of the S-300. They fought tooth and nail to avoid Russia selling it to Iran.
They may be scared of it but that does not mean they can't defeat it. Let the Israeli record on Syrian incursions speak for this...
 

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