BrahMos Cruise Missile

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by nitesh, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. Steven Rogers

    Steven Rogers Regular Member

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    Not a single Arabian country has as large GDP as that of India... Also it is highly unlikely that they will raise money for paksitanis buy, after the US's new fever on Pakistan
     
  2. Vijyes

    Vijyes Regular Member

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    There is a difference between GDP and budget revenues. GDP is total transaction value while income is net profit. Arabs may have low GDP but huge revenue. I don't see any reason why they would follow USA.
     
  3. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Steven Rogers @Vijyes ............. I think you two are talking about Pakistan economy. This is not the correct thread to do that. Please don't derail this thread.
     
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  4. tsunami

    tsunami Regular Member

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    Are you serious. You think that arab countries don't care about US.
     
  5. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    No, I think you miss the point: B2 is designed as a pure stealthy bomber, its outfit sacrifice lots more than F22 in other features to guarantee the stealth. Yakhont, however, is a CM emphasizing the speed. Stealth is the last thing that designer would consider (actually, at the time, they didn’t think of it at all). And no, those small wings on Brahmos put no less damage on its RCS reduction, if not more. Actually, if you look at the shape of AGM-129, the real stealth CM, you will also find 2 large wing span, so your logic doesn’t work.





    No, it still come back to the same questions: how often and how dramatic can this CM does this kind of maneuvering during cruise stage. It may be able to perform up-down maneuvering all the way if we don’t consider the fuel, but this movement won’t bother the interceptor if it is not highly extreme (at least >4g for last 90s air-defence missile).


    But if CM keeps doing 5-6g maneuvering within whole journey, that will be a big challenge to its structure and material strength.





    Because long range air-defence missile is playing the key part against supersonic anti-ship missile, I believe you will need the similar system in land war too.




    What is “strategic weapon”? Agni with nuke is, Chinese DF31 is. Because only the national leader can release them. Once you use them, you just escalate the war to ultimate.


    In the case of Brahmos, no matter how “Strategic” you think they are, when you put them near the border, they will be either first wave to attack, or first batch to be attacked. Either way, you “strategic” weapons are gone in the first day of the war. That is not how “Strategic weapon“ works.
     
  6. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Why you every time start deviate from facts which are there in front of you? I am not comparing BRAHMOS with any of the stealthy aircraft. I am only talking about RCS. Along with shape size does also matters a lot in RCS. Along with that, Tomahawk is sure going to have a greater RCS then BRAHMOS with its wing span. Now AGM-129 is build with stealth in mind and its sure going to be a stealthy one. No point in comparing the two. We can't compare MKI with F-22 for RCS, but we could very well compare MKI with Tejas on that.


    Try to read some other posts too. @Kunal Biswas already posted the news where it has been mentioned that it has been tested to carry out complex maneuvers. Now about structural strength, I am just laying out some layman facts here. BRAHMOS weighs 3 tons. Remove the 200 kg warhead. You do get 2.98 tons. Now even if we substract another 2 tons for fuel since it uses a RAMJET engine, then too you do leave around nearly a ton of steel. Now another fact is it is designed to fly at extremely low altitude (5 metre) for a whole distance of 120 kms (officially) that too in Mach 3 . How much atmospheric resistance you think it has to sustain during this whole flight? How much rigid structure it should have to encounter that much of pressure and stress in its structure? Now remember, I've only taken the empty weight to be of .98 ton whereas its much more then this in actual.

    The lowest flight and interception altitude of HQ-9 is 500 mtrs. Although I believe it could take out targets as low as 200 mtrs. Now a BRAHMOS flying at any lower altitude then this is a HARD TARGET for it.
    On other hand, the kill probability of HQ-9 against a plane size target is 0.9, which is simply superb. But against a BM, it comes down to 0.3. Now just imagine that against a maneuverable target its has a higher kill probability then a dumb warhead which could be literally tracked from its origin and whose trajectory could be calculated well in advance. What you think works against HQ-9 in this case? Its the size and speed of the target.
    Now mix this cocktail of maneuverability, size and speed along with altitude and then ask the computer to compute the number of missiles it would have to fire to counter such a target. Remember me pitching a battery of HQ-9 against a battery of BRAHMOS?

    :facepalm: What more could I say about your definition on Strategic and Tactical weapons.

    BRAHMOS is not a silo based weapon like Agni series. Its a complete mobile system. It has been deployed near border so that when need arise, we don't remain wanting it. Its all about fast deployment of asset in time of emergency.
     
  7. Bornubus

    Bornubus Dogra Rule 1846-1949 Senior Member

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    22365388_796133970560140_6556994394598034561_n.jpg

    ===============================================
     
  8. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    I simply pointed out the error of your words: both missiles didn't involve any consideration of stealth in the stage of designing. You make your guess of RCS based on the wings of Tomahawk, but you forget that Brahmos has the wings as well, and even more. It is really too hard to tell which wing design brings bigger RCS. But what we know is: both American and Chinese have tested the Russian supersonic cruise missile, neither of them was impressed by the RCS of this kind of missile.




    Firstly, you only got 2.8 tons after 200kg warhead;

    Secondly, you forget other components: integrated boost rocket engine, guidance system, controlling mechanic system, detection system, etc, etc. Yes, you are dreaming if you think there will be 0.8 tons for the structure.


    More importantly, your missile doesn't have enough fuel to perform complex manuevour throughout the whole journey.



    Where you get that figure, even FD2000 (the downgraded version of HQ9) provided lowest altitude--25m in 2009. In 2012, Chinese claimed that the latest export version could do 15m.


    Firstly, Brahmos can fly 5 meters high doesn't mean it fly 5 meters through the whole journey. Generally, the so called low-low trajectory is usually 25 -50 meters in the cruise stage.

    Secondly, that is not how long range air-defnese missile is used. The main function of them are to find the enemy plane carrying these missiles and try to kill them before they launch the missiles. For already launched those anti-ship missiles, HQ9 will kill those fly in high altitude and provide early warning to those mid-range or short-range air-defense missile.





    Obviously, your brahmos is under the command of battle field commander. All these weapons are called tactic weapon, it gets nothing to do with how mobilize it is or how fast it is. It is only based on its meaning to the war, to what extent it can change the war.
     
  9. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    Would you like to provide a source for that?
     
  10. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    My direct comparison was between RCS of something like MKI and BRAHMOS. It was you who inserted Tomahawk in mid. Anyway wing span of any non stealthy flying body plays a crucial role in defining RCS. Wingspan of Tomahawk is 2.67 mtr and that of BRAHMOS is 1.70 mtr, a difference of nearly 1 mtr.

    Yeah, US and Chinese both tested Russian cruise missiles (!) and as they are not satisfied with its RCS. Good point. I think after this US came up with the idea of developing AGM-129 and till date underlineing the threat of Russian CM as no effective answer to it is available for them right now.


    My point was never of 0.8 tons of steel for structural composition. You steered quiet clearly off the main part. How much strong a structural composition you think it would be if it would withstand air resistance and heat at 5 mtr above sea wave and take S maneuver before hitting the target? Obviously its much more rigid then the contemporary missiles. Right?

    Moreover with complex maneuver, its range would be cut down, but as far as fuel is concerned, it would have enough to take evasive action.

    Here is the source.

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/hq-9-specs.htm

    @sthf .... You may also have a look.

    No where I said that it would fly at an altitude of 5mtr the whole way. It only needs to fly as low as to evade RADAR for maximum time frame. But 25 to 50 mtr is the standard cruising altitude of Chinese CMs. Please don't compare both.

    Ofcourse. But if the specs are right, then the best bet Chinese AD would have against BRAHMOS is HQ-9 given its range and seeker.

    Strategic weapons are those which would be used against strategic targets, either in battle field or mainland. For example, B2 is an strategic bomber. During Iraq war it was first deployed to take out RADAR positions and clear a corridor for the incoming wave of air attack. Now in a battle field there could be many of those targets which would have strategic importance.
     
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  11. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Chinmoy I was asking His Excellency @no smoking where did he learn that Chinese copies of S-300 are capable of low level interception because I couldn't find a source that states the same.

    Last I checked, both S-300 and S-400 use other systems like Buk or Pantsir to safeguard themselves from low level cruise missile attack.
     
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  12. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    Latest variants of Pinaka can achieve under 40m CEP when deployed with TCS, also the idea of MRLS is to have wide area destruction for a low over all cost. A base like Sarghoda can be mostly leveled with a salvo of 72 rockets. Sure, they aren't great for destroying bunkers but when a significant part of the base is destroyed with the heavy salvo, fighters can dive in destroy any bunkers. Also the heavy volume of fire coming from MRLS is a big mind fuck meant to scare the pants off the enemy. Moreso, these missiles can be deployed in minutes causing mass casualties and destruction. Also with Incendiary warheads, lots of targets can be set ablaze, fuel dumps, weapons dumps are prime targets. A lot of FOBs and key bases of the PAF are well within range of Smerch, Pinaka.
     
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  13. R A Varun

    R A Varun Regular Member

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    the only problem with the subsonic in the indian issue is unlike the usa and the australia, uk, russian armies, indian army has its adversaries jsut next to them, with total air defence systems faced towards them, and deep bunkers enough to withstand the cruise missile of sub sonic category, and the supersonic cruise missiles are made to suppress the enemy missile batteries and missile bunkers deep inside the mountains that is next to the indian borders especially the pakistan and the chinese in the tibet region.

    further to say, the missile batteries of the pakistan have ranges more than a hundred kilometers and in parts like the punjab where the terrain is flat and plains, the mobile radars of them found to be integrated to the missile batteries network,[ to note its a measure of chinese to keep pakistan capable of checking india when it takes in the east] they can shoot down it as soon as it croses the border, while the bramhose has the same capabilities but with almost threee times the speed, it can even perform the maneovers, so in matter of air battery interception it can evade, and it gives a mere hundred seconds for the enemy radar to suppress it, while the last phase is a far more tight maneover which outperforms almost all the airdefence missiles, no last phase interception.

    indian army needs cruise missiles swift and quick enough to neutralise the enemies in the matter of seconds whatsoever the target is, not waiting and praying the god to make it hit the target, without becoming pray to the air defence batteries
     
  14. Vorschlaghammer

    Vorschlaghammer Regular Member

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    Might come in handy for smacking Pak tactical nuke launchers. First wave of Brahmos strikes can take out or disrupt air defence, then a group of loitering Nirbhay's could be sent up to look for and plunge towards any mobile launcher. Although this is purely speculation.
     
  15. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Published on The National Interest (http://nationalinterest.org)



    India's Jet Fighters Are Now Equipped with Nuclear-Armed Missiles

    [​IMG]
    Pakistan should be worried.

    Zachary Keck [2]

    Pairing the Su-30 with the Brahmos missile will also drastically expand the striking power of the air leg of India’s nuclear triad. The Su-30 itself has a range of up to 1,800 kilometers while the Brahmos missile can strike targets nearly 300 kilometers away. Thus, the newly modified Su-30s will allow India’s nuclear aircraft to strike deep in the heart of China or Pakistan, Delhi’s two main adversaries.

    India’s nuclear command has begun receiving fighter jets armed with the country’s most advanced, supersonic cruise missile.

    According to media reports, India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) has begun receiving 42 Su-30MKI air dominance fighters modified to carry air-launched BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. This will significantly enhance the striking power of the air leg of India’s nuclear triad.

    “Individually, the Su-30 and BrahMos are powerful weapons,” Russia and India Report noted [3]. “But when the world’s most capable fourth generation fighter is armed with a uniquely destructive cruise missile, together they are a dramatic force multiplier.”

    The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI is a twin-seater, highly maneuverable, fourth-generation multirole combat fighter aircraft built by Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and licensed to India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The plane will serve as the backbone of India’s Air Force through 2020 and beyond. Delhi has already acquired around 200 jets, and eventually plans to acquire 282 of them.

    The Brahmos is jointly developed by India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Russia’s NPO Mashinostroeyenia. Capable of traveling at speeds of Mach 3.0, the Brahmos is the fastest cruise missile in the world. As Russia and India Report explained, “The BrahMos’ 3000 km per second speed – literally faster than a bullet – means it hits the target with a huge amount of kinetic energy. In tests, the BrahMos has often cut warships in half and reduced ground targets to smithereens.”

    The same report notes that the Su-30 will add to the Brahmos’ already deadly effect. “The Sukhoi’s blistering speed will add extra launch momentum to the missile, plus the aircraft’s ability to penetrate hardened air defences means there is a greater chance for the pilot to deliver the missile on to its designated targets.”

    Pairing the Su-30 with the Brahmos missile will also drastically expand the striking power of the air leg of India’s nuclear triad. The Su-30 itself has a range of up to 1,800 kilometers while the Brahmos missile can strike targets nearly 300 kilometers away. Thus, the newly modified Su-30s will allow India’s nuclear aircraft to strike deep in the heart of China or Pakistan, Delhi’s two main adversaries.

    The plan to modify the Su-30 to carry the Brahmos missiles was first hatched back in 2010 when the SFC submitted a proposal for two squadrons of Su-30s to be put under its command. Later, in 2012, India’s cabinet approved the project to modify 42 Su-30s to carry 216 Brahmos missiles. According to the Times of India [4], the integration project was mostly carried out by BrahMos Aerospace, with HAL also contributing crucial modifications.

    The first of the new planes was handed over to the SFC in February and is believed to have undergone tests last month. Production on the second of the modified Su-30s has already begun. It is unclear when the SFC expects to receive the rest of the planes.

    The Brahmos-armed Su-30s is only one of the ways that India is strengthening its strategic deterrent [5]. It has also been busy testing [6] the Agni-V, which is three-stage solid-fueled intermediate-range ballistic missile (IRBM) with a range of about 5,000 km. When the Agni-V is inducted into service, India will have the ability to strike any part of China with nuclear weapons for the first time. Furthermore, India is currently testing ballistic missile submarines (SSBN), which will complete the nuclear triad.

    Zachary Keck is a former managing editor of The National Interest. You can find him on Twitter: @ZacharyKeck. [7]

    This article originally appeared [8] in April 2015.

    Image: Wikimedia Commons / Fepaba
     
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  16. cobra commando

    cobra commando Tharki regiment Veteran Member Senior Member

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  17. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    He has no knowledge of Rudra I or now Rudra II about to be tested or Rudra III which is sanctioned.
     
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  18. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Anything more on Rudra? What are the specs of Rudra 1?
     
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  19. Butter Chicken

    Butter Chicken Senior Member Senior Member

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    BrahMos Aerospace to start cruise missile deliveries for India’s Air Force next year


    DUBAI, November 13. /TASS/. The deliveries of BrahMos air-launched cruise missiles for India’s Air Force will start in January 2018, BrahMos Aerospace Joint Venture Co-Director Alexander Maxichev told TASS at the Dubai Airshow 2017 on Monday.

    "The Indian Air Force has signed a contract on the delivery of air-launched BrahMos cruise missiles from January 2018. The missiles are designed to arm about 50 Su-30MKI fighter aircraft modified for their use," Maxichev said.

    The deliveries of the ordered missiles will begin immediately after two certified launches against a naval and a ground target are carried out, he said, without specifying the timeframe of these launches and noting that they would be conducted until the end of the year.

    India’s Air Force has modified two Su-30MKI fighter jets for air-launched BrahMos cruise missiles by now. The upgrade of the other 48 aircraft will begin immediately after this missile is accepted for service.
     
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  20. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Only two launches? I highly doubt that...
     
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