BrahMos Cruise Missile

[Vijyes]

Do you have any idea what I said and what are you saying???

I can ask the same question to you. Can you answer?

 

[indiatester]

Some news coming from Vietnam

VN Express International reports that Vietnam's government has confirmed it has taken delivery of a batch of BrahMos from India. However, details of deal not revealed yet.

The world's fastest anti-ship cruise missile will bolster the country's 'peaceful' defense policies.
Vietnam's government has confirmed it has taken delivery of a batch of short-range ramjet supersonic cruise missiles from India.

Foreign ministry spokeswoman Le Thi Thu Hang said at a press briefing on Thursday that Vietnam is developing defense cooperation with India to allow the country to pursue its defense policies.

“The arms purchase is in line with Vietnam’s peaceful national defense policies aimed at protecting the country,” Hang said.

She said the strategic comprehensive partnership between Vietnam and India is growing in various areas and contributing to peace, stability and development in the region and the world.

The BrahMos missile was developed by Russia's NPO Mashinostroeyenia and India’s Defense Research and Development Organization. It is the world’s fastest anti-ship cruise missile in operation, traveling at speeds of 3,400-3,700 kilometers per hour.

The three-ton missiles can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land.

India has already supplied patrol vessels to Vietnam and has been providing military training, but the missiles are the first arms trade deal between the two countries.

Details of the value of the deal have not been revealed.

Vietnam is building up its military amid tensions in the disputed East Sea, which is known internationally as the South China Sea. The country has also ordered six Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines from Russia in a deal worth $2 billion. The latest arrived last January.

http://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/vi...se-of-cruise-missiles-from-india-3629191.html

MEAIndia contradicted that news in a way. Not sure if its confirmation or contradiction though

 

[porky_kicker]

Don't say anything for God's sake. Brahmos travels at 2.8Mach. Many planes travel at 2.5Mach. All these planes also have high maneuverability. Despite all these, they can be intercepted. I don't see any reason why brahmos can't be intercepted. Ballistic missiles travel at 7+ Mach, sometimes even 24Mach in reentry phase. They are different.

Brahmos missiles have just 200km range in skimming flights. It is really not that effective.

lol ur comparing supersonic missiles with aircraft's

do u know the vast difference in RCS between the 2 ?

picking up a supersonic missile even at high altitudes is not that easy amid the radar clutter.

there will be lots of hits and misses

also when ECCM kicks in ,things will get even more tougher because the radar will have to contend with numerous false targets .when the enemy radar is in a scanning mode the ECCM system creates masking interference in the channels of range and angular data, thus the radar is forced to change for tracking the false maneuvering targets.

ECCM aboard brahmos operates in 2 modes passive and active , when it gets light up by enemy radars it goes active other wise it operates in passive mode.

brahmos is launched in a salvo mode (generally 3) at high priority and well defended targets. it is known as wolf pack mode.When they approach the radar horizon of the enemy radars defending the intended targets (all these is pre programmed based on prior SIGINT info ) all but one will drop down to remain undetected by the enemy radar(s) and the one missile flying high will scan for its intended target and once the info is acquired it will communicate the same to the other brahmos flying low, then drop down to join the other missiles.

even if the high flying brahmos gets shot down , it dont matter as the low flying brahmos have already acquired the relevant data from it and can proceed with the attack undetected.

so no need to hassle with overly simplistic points and arguments like maneuvering fighter / high mach numbers ie kinematic aspects

fact is any weapons effectiveness is based on its kill probability , there will be hits and misses.
same with brahmos , but the fact remains that brahmos has a high kill probability.

 

[Superdefender]

It’s Official: IAF To Get ‘3 x BrahMos’ Load-Out Option By 2021
Shiv Aroor. | Jun 30 2017 9:20 am
_______________________________________________

The Indian Air Force’s original wish to deploy fighters with three BrahMos supersonic stand-off cruise missiles is now an official, timeframed project for the Indo-Russian partnership. Livefist can confirm that BrahMos, which kickstarted an effort in 2012 to spin off a BrahMos variant that weighed half as much as the original and dimensional smaller, has formally committed to putting the new missile into test mode by 2021, with the specific aim of giving the IAF a three-missile loadout option. The effort to shrink the BrahMos, first revealed here on Livefist in 2012, also aims to extend the capability to the IAF’s upgraded MiG-29s, incoming Rafale jets and Indian Navy’s MiG-29Ks, none of which can currently deploy a BrahMos-A. The smaller BrahMos is likely to be designated the BrahMos NG (the BrahMos-2 is the in-development
hypersonic version of the missile).
While the Su-30 will be able to weild the BrahMos NG in a three-missile load-out, other platforms will get the weapon system in a single or twin missile load-out configuration depending on simulations that will be completed this year.
The fresh effort actually brings things full circle for the IAF. It had originally hoped the Su-30MKI platform could be modified satisfactorily to deploy three BrahMos-A missiles — two on the wings, and one on special belly hardpoint. Structural studies by HAL and Sukhoi Design Bureau concluded that the modifications were technically risky and economically unacceptable. Following
six sets of carriage and separation trials , one of two modified IAF Su-30 MKIs will test-fire a BrahMos-A from its belly hardpoint for the first time next month against a ship target in the Bay of Bengal.
Given the stand-off posture an air-launched BrahMos will have with its 300 km range (to be extended progressively to over 900 km), a three-weapon loadout option is an sharp leg up for mission flexibility and planning.

Like the existing BrahMos base weapon, the BrahMos-3 is being developed for submarine launch. While the original BrahMos will be deployable from a vertical silo stack, the miniaturised BrahMos is being developed for firing from torpedo tubes. Livefist can confirm that BrahMos Corp. has held discussions with the likely contenders in India’s looming mega conventional submarine build programme, the Project 75I, and locked down assurances that their bids will include confirmation that the BrahMos can be deployed for vertical launch from their platforms with necessary modifications. Russia’s Rubin Design Bureau and Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems have made formal confirmations to this effect on their Amur 1650 and Class 214 boats respectively.
In an interesting related development at the International Maritime Defence Show 2017 currently on in St Petersburg, Russian officials have revealed the Rubin Design Bureau and India’s DRDO may sign a cooperation agreement on their respective air independent propulsion (AIP) efforts. DRDO chief S. Christopher, who visited Russia in March, is understood to have been keen to forge a partnership so that India’s work so far on an indigenous AIP doesn’t lose out to delivery timeframes to the Indian Navy.
To be executed under India’s new strategic partnership policy, the P75I programme RFP is expected early 2018, with India’s L&T and Reliance Defence likely to face off in the multi-billion contest to build six winning submarine types in country.

Source Link: https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/06/the-iaf-wants-a-3-x-brahmos-load-out-option.html

 

[jat]

Why would Vietnam want Brahmos? They have the P-800 Onyks which probably has Brahmos components. The Russians buy from Brahmos and integrate with their stuff. The Vietnamese in affect already have Brahmos. This is how Syrians got it, through Russia same thing with Vietnam, way to avoid being MTCR compliant for India, get Russia to sell it under a different disgination. Pretty smart because you can put the fingure on Russia while still selling software/hardware for the brains of the missile perhaps even more. Depends on how much of the Onyks is still made in Russia.

 

[square]

Why would Vietnam want Brahmos?

beedi jalaney ke liye !! ...........

 

[Vijyes]

Russia had denied ToT for MRBL missiles but have readily given it for Brahmos. Except for seeker of brahmos, all other components are reverse engineerable like the motor. Why would Russia give it to India is a big question. Now, Israel has given seekers for India as part of strategic partnership.

 

[indiatester]

Russia had denied ToT for MRBL missiles but have readily given it for Brahmos. Except for seeker of brahmos, all other components are reverse engineerable like the motor. Why would Russia give it to India is a big question. Now, Israel has given seekers for India as part of strategic partnership.

What about the fuel ? I heard we were still dependent on Russia for the fuel as we could not get material properties right.

 

[scatterStorm]

Indian navy successfully test fires already tested 80's era Russian Onyx missiles. Known in India as Brahmos. Because India wants to hide that Russia gave Onyx in BEEKH.

"The nation who haven't have insurance for there citizen's undergarments, shouldn't ask loans from a frustrated nation like China. Because chances are ... you might get a big fat rod in your ass, so tight, that it would be considered as Rape".

 

[Vijyes]

What about the fuel ? I heard we were still dependent on Russia for the fuel as we could not get material properties right.

I have heard that propulsion of brahmos is by India. Seeker, motor is russian and propulsion is Indian. Even warhead was initially Russian but India developed its own over time. I believe propulsion means fuel. So, it is Indian. Otherwise, how will it be 50:50 JV? It will be merely import

 

[indiatester]

I have heard that propulsion of brahmos is by India. Seeker, motor is russian and propulsion is Indian. Even warhead was initially Russian but India developed its own over time. I believe propulsion means fuel. So, it is Indian. Otherwise, how will it be 50:50 JV? It will be merely import

I'm unable to track the article that describes the difficulties we were facing in the fuel department. Something about how the Russian fuel maintains consistency in flight and during storage, something that our fuel didn't (had to do about material science). I'll post the article if I find it.

 

[Indian Sniper.001]

Amit Shah will take over as Defence minister of India very shortly and soon Pakistani army and chinkies will feel the heat....

Well, that's wishful thinking. Don't think he will become the RM. Would prefer Gen V K Singh. India is in dire need of TSD, and some hard, unemotional decisions (not that Amit Shah would make emotional decisions but just that Gen V K Singh knows how the Army functions better).

 

[Chinmoy]

I can ask the same question to you. Can you answer?

Sure......... PM me.

Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

 

[captscooby81]

US Navy Surface fleet enemy missile defensive chart... Its mentioning BrahMos as 260 NM which translates to 481 km range roughly ..So the US knew from day one BrahMos is not 290 km range ..

 

[Vijyes]

US Navy Surface fleet enemy missile defensive chart... Its mentioning BrahMos as 260 NM which translates to 481 km range roughly ..So the US knew from day one BrahMos is not 290 km range ..

View attachment 19192

Yeah, the excuse these people gave of changing software from 290km to 450km was hillarious to say the least. The sea skimming Brahmos may have lower range ~ 290km due to higher energy needed for sea skimming.

 

[Superdefender]

India new air launched BrahMos cruise missile and hypersonic and long range variants
Brian Wang | August 25, 2017 |
__________________________________

India will but the BrahMos-A airlaunched heavy cruise missile into service starting around the end of 2017

In 25 June 2016 as a modified Su-30MKI carrying BrahMos-A underwent a successful trial flight. It was he first time a heavyweight supersonic cruise missile had been integrated on a long-range fighter aircraft. The project started in 2011 but has been bogged down. To carry the missile, the Su-30MKI undercarriage had to be strengthened, which also required new hard points and structural modifications. The cost of adapting the BrahMos for air launch was “phenomenal,” but efforts to downsize the missile were abandoned after an attempt to reduce the size of the ramjet. 40 IAF Su-30s are to be equipped to carry the missile.
The air launched cruise missile will be put into service after tests in the Indian Ocean in September-October.
BrahMos, a word combining Brahmaputra and Moscow, is a name for a missile created within the framework of the joint efforts of both India and Russia. The missile can carry a conventional warhead of up to 660 pounds. BrahMos missiles can be launched from warships and submarines as well as from aircraft and land-based launchers.
The missile travels at speeds of Mach 2.8 to 3.0.

Other missile variants under development
________________________________________________
A hypersonic version of the missile, BrahMos-II, is also presently under development with a speed of Mach 7-8 to boost aerial fast strike capability. It will start testing this year.
India and Russia are now planning to jointly develop a new generation of Brahmos extendeed range missiles with 600 km-plus range (instead of 290-450 km) and an ability to hit protected targets with pinpoint accuracy.
BrahMos-NG (Next Generation) is a mini version based on the existing BrahMos, will have same 290 km range and mach 3.5 speed but it will weigh around 1.5 tons, 5 meters in length and 50 cm in diameter, making BrahMos-NG 50 percent lighter and three meters shorter than its predecessor. The system is expected to be inducted in the year 2017. BrahMos-NG will have lesser RCS (radar cross section) compared to its predecessor, making it harder for air defense systems to locate and engage the target. BrahMos-NG will have Land, Air, ship-borne and Submarine tube-launched variants. First test flight is expected to take place in 2017–18.
India and Russia intend to make 2,000 BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles over the next ten years through their joint venture company, and nearly 50% of them are expected to be exported to friendly countries.

Source Link: https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/...e-and-hypersonic-and-long-range-variants.html

 

[no smoking]

You are missing out the whole point of tracking and targeting. As I have already said, tracking could be done by any ground based, on air or space based system. But targeting is whole different ball game.


Ballistic missiles does have a predefined flight path during the boost, mid phase and terminal phase. But even then its a pure game of probability and luck to intercept one. No ABM system can boost of even 95% accuracy success, leave alone 100. But then too we had to come up with MaRV and MIRV and decoys for ballistic missiles to tackle the ABM system. Now flight path of any cruise missile is predetermined and known to its operator only. With mid flight update it is mere guess game for tracking stations about what would be its next waypoint.

Well, I think you get the idea wrong: changing the flight path doesn’t make targeting difficult, it is simply make the cruise missile to avoid the strong point of air defense network. it is the valley hugging capability causes the problem, which Brahmos doesn’t have. Brahmos is not subsonic cruise missile, it can’t either undertake high g manoeuvring, nor changing the route dramatically. And as I said, unlike the sea war, on the land, you are facing an air defense matrix not network, especially for the countries like Russia and China, the intensity of their air defense systems generally cover every square meter of defense area. Changing the flying route only means the missile leaves one defense unit threating area but enters into another defense unit threating area.

There was a reason when I said, "Happy Turkey Shooting" in one of my last post. The most effective defence system for any such weapon is CIWS. Even intercepting one with interceptor is plausible. But just imagine how you would have to do this by tail chasing it. But even CIWS or tail chasing one is good enough for a single or two targets. But with a salvo of a dozen approaching you, just imagine the overload situation your defence mission control computer would go through.

Opposing to what you think, every navy is trying to shoot down the anti-ship missile far way. That is why American invented Aegi system to detect and track the supersonic missile 100km away and shoot them down before they get into sea skimming stage. CIWS is the last layer, work or not depends on luck.

BTW, Coyote in 240kmph slower then BRAHMOS. Moreover the test has been done against a single target again, not against salvo of it.

2.8 Mach and much more maneuveable.


As I said, here we are talking about the war on the land. Unlike the sea war-the air defence only exists where your target is, from the moment the missile getting close the border, you are tracked by multiple enemy’s radar; you are not threated by the defence missile from one direction but multiple direction; and you are trying to get through one defence network but multiple network. So, I guess only a small portion of your missiles will reach the target. But here again, it is not on the sea, when a ship was hit badly, it may sink or lost fighting capability until returning to harbour. On the land war, you have much more targets, and these targets are much stronger. Worst of worse, most of these targets can be fixed and re-join the fight in couple of hours.

 

[Chinmoy]

Well, I think you get the idea wrong: changing the flight path doesn’t make targeting difficult, it is simply make the cruise missile to avoid the strong point of air defense network. it is the valley hugging capability causes the problem, which Brahmos doesn’t have. Brahmos is not subsonic cruise missile, it can’t either undertake high g manoeuvring, nor changing the route dramatically. And as I said, unlike the sea war, on the land, you are facing an air defense matrix not network, especially for the countries like Russia and China, the intensity of their air defense systems generally cover every square meter of defense area. Changing the flying route only means the missile leaves one defense unit threating area but enters into another defense unit threating area.





Opposing to what you think, every navy is trying to shoot down the anti-ship missile far way. That is why American invented Aegi system to detect and track the supersonic missile 100km away and shoot them down before they get into sea skimming stage. CIWS is the last layer, work or not depends on luck.





2.8 Mach and much more maneuveable.


As I said, here we are talking about the war on the land. Unlike the sea war-the air defence only exists where your target is, from the moment the missile getting close the border, you are tracked by multiple enemy’s radar; you are not threated by the defence missile from one direction but multiple direction; and you are trying to get through one defence network but multiple network. So, I guess only a small portion of your missiles will reach the target. But here again, it is not on the sea, when a ship was hit badly, it may sink or lost fighting capability until returning to harbour. On the land war, you have much more targets, and these targets are much stronger. Worst of worse, most of these targets can be fixed and re-join the fight in couple of hours.

First of all, I am not confusing between tracking and targeting. If we do fire a missile towards any civilian airport, the L band radar over there could track it from 300 km approx, but could it target that missile?
Even the space based asset could track any missile from the moment of its launch, but targeting one is different ball game. For example Aegis too is a network based defence system, but against brahmos it is capable to defend against only a few at any given time.

The strong point of any supersonic cruise missile is to overwhelm the defence system. Its a known fact that it is never designed to be stealthy. The only way it could achieve its target is by overloading the enemy defence system. Even in land warfare, the scenario is same. Now Brahmos being a strategic missile would be used accordingly. If it is to be used against a Chinese airbase, now do you expect it would be launched against every standing aircraft?

BTW, if defeating a supersonic cruise missile is so easy for modern defence system, why you think system like C-101, C-301, C-805, KD-88 or YJ-91 and 12 exist in Chinese armoury?

 

[no smoking]

First of all, I am not confusing between tracking and targeting. If we do fire a missile towards any civilian airport, the L band radar over there could track it from 300 km approx, but could it target that missile?

Even the space based asset could track any missile from the moment of its launch, but targeting one is different ball game. For example Aegis too is a network based defence system, but against brahmos it is capable to defend against only a few at any given time.


The strong point of any supersonic cruise missile is to overwhelm the defence system. Its a known fact that it is never designed to be stealthy. The only way it could achieve its target is by overloading the enemy defence system. Even in land warfare, the scenario is same. Now Brahmos being a strategic missile would be used accordingly. If it is to be used against a Chinese airbase, now do you expect it would be launched against every standing aircraft?

No, in land warefare, the result will be lot different. As I repeatedly pointed out, in the sea, your target is the fleet and the air defence system is also with the fleet, your cruise missiles are pretty safe until they get in the 100-120 km air-defence circle of the fleet. On the land, it is another story. For example, your target is an airport, but it doesn’t mean the air defence only exists around the airport, more likely the cruise missiles have to face different air-defence units from the moment they cross the border. I agree that under salvo attacking, there will be some missiles be able to get through all these, but again, here you are talking about an airport. Last time, Syrian airport was attacked by 57 American cruise missiles, it was operational again hours later. Now you have to ask yourselves, how many cruise missiles you need to make sure enough number getting through? How many more you need to keep a single airport out of service for days?

BTW, if defeating a supersonic cruise missile is so easy for modern defence system, why you think system like C-101, C-301, C-805, KD-88 or YJ-91 and 12 exist in Chinese armoury?

I hope you notice that all Chinese supersonic cruises serve only one purpose – ANTI-SHIP.

As I said, supersonic cruise missile is not a suitable weapon for land war. Russia had this kind of missile 30 years ago, have you seen they plan to use weapon for land war?

 

[Immanuel]

The best-cheapest way to destroy air bases is an enitre battallion of Smerch or Pinaka-2 MRLS with TCS firing off entire Salvo of 72 missiles + 2-3 more Salvos, these weapons are cheaper, can sanitize a wide area, this would be followed by Brahmos strikes on key command and air defense node and some bombing raids by Jags or MKIs with runway busters, some CBU-105 SFW to destroy ground moving targets. Many of the Puki air bases are with-in reach of these weapons. Each base would need a flight or platoon of Garuds (for smaller air fields) + a battalion or company of mechanized infantry to safely secure the base post capture followed up by a battallion of infantry from one of the Pivot corps to hold the base from counter offensives while strike elements make deeper inroads. High rate of fire, short flight time and low cost per missile would ensure the base is inoperative/destroyed. A raid would be precisely timed and the base can be overwhelmed in minutes. Such assets need hefty fire power, timing and precise coordination. 2-3 4-ships of MKI/Mig-29/ would sanitize the air to ensure the enemy's air assets are neutralized.