BrahMos Cruise Missile

[Srinivas_K]

There was talk about deploying Ashwin as a long range SAM; I think with it's 200 km range and 4.5 mach speed it would be an exceptionally good long range SAM - it beats the crap out of Barak-8 (even with all its extensions)!! Also, being completely indigenous it might cost much less too. Barak-8 is way too expensive!! Israelis make a killing from this stuff (nothing against it in principle though)!!

Barak is a good missile with next gen technologies, It is a comprehensive deal which includes radars and other technologies.

It is light weight, less smoky and maneuverable missile.

I agree with your point about economics.

 

[Scrutator]

Barak is a good missile with next gen technologies, It is a comprehensive deal which includes radars and other technologies.

It is light weight, less smoky and maneuverable missile.

I agree with your point about economics.

Only thing is - Barak is not good for a chase, owing to its low speed. It's a an excellent 'point defence' SAM - where the missile/aircraft is directly headed into the Barak missile! I think Akash has a slight edge and Ashwin is way superior when it comes to air defence perimeter.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Only thing is - Barak is not good for a chase, owing to its low speed. It's a an excellent 'point defence' SAM - where the missile/aircraft is directly headed into the Barak missile! I think Akash has a slight edge and Ashwin is way superior when it comes to air defence perimeter.

Point defence is what is needed from baraks. There are many targets that need protection like that. e.g. Naval ships, airbases, naval bases, communication centres, strategic launch pads, military bases, ammunition centres, defence/weapon manufacturing facilites etc. etc.

 

[Scrutator]

Point defence is what is needed from baraks. There are many targets that need protection like that. e.g. Naval ships, airbases, naval bases, communication centres, strategic launch pads, military bases, ammunition centres, defence/weapon manufacturing facilites etc. etc.

Exactly my point. They're good for point defence scenarios; but then there are scenarios where you need to put up an 'air defence perimeter' and be able to chase any aerial intrusion in any direction - an area where other type of missiles may be more suited.
There's much clamor that Barak-8 is a general purpose MRSAM that should be deployed all over (since it has the range, technology etc.) - not quite that fungible!

 

[Kshatriya87]

Exactly my point. They're good for point defence scenarios; but then there are scenarios where you need to put up an 'air defence perimeter' and be able to chase any aerial intrusion in any direction - an area where other type of missiles may be more suited.
There's much clamor that Barak-8 is a general purpose MRSAM that should be deployed all over (since it has the range, technology etc.) - not quite that fungible!

That is why I referred to a layered defence. Such defence is good for cities or other large installations. Layered defense ensures the probability of intercepting hostile missiles at longer range itself. In case of failure, the medium range SAMs can intercept. After that comes barak, akash and other short range SAMs.

If all else fails then you have to go back to conventional methods of anti-aircrafts guns & CIWS. But the probability of getting hit by a hostile missile is much much larger in this case.

 

[singh100ful]

video 1- Failed Prithvi test from early 90's
video 2- Failed Prithvi + GSLV GSAT 5P failure Launch failure(Just FYI the GSLV program has had 3 failures in 10 launches) + Failed Astra AAM Launch + Nirbhau failed test
video 3- same old crap as in the videos above

As far as any Russian Expert saying anything, No Nation in the world today has a 100% successful Ballistic missile defence system.They very fact that we have a Partially deployable system puts us in the league of the US & Russia who are the only two other nations to have built a deployable system(China's system is still in development with many failed tests).
The Indian ABM system will be bolstered in the coming years with Super Swordfish LRTR 7 S400 interceptors as well.India is also building a 2nd tier of Interceptors called AD1 & AD2.
As for the Dick measuring contest on range many here are indulging in let me just say we do not need anything more than AGNI 1 with it's 700km range to turn 500km wide Pakistan into ashes.
As far as nuclear weapons are concerned India is known to have an active thermonuclear program with 200kt being the standard size of the Indian Thermonuclear arsenal, there are reports of 2 Mt warheads as well.
Pakistan was transferred the Chinese 30kt designs during the Lop Nor tests of the 80's, the largest verifiable pakistani weapon is a 30kt simple atomic bomb.do the math!

The third video looks like of the Russian S-300 or S-400 due to the cold launch system
Indian missiles are mostly hot launch system whereas both S-300 and S-400 are cold launch

 

[Chinmoy]

You don't seem to seem to get the fundamental point that Brahmos (from Oniks) was always designed and already built as a 600 km range missile. It was configured to fly only half that distance (at least official statement is thus - it may have been fully capable of full range all along too, but we never know). Now they'll be lifting those configuration restrictions - that's all!!! Think of the current Brahmos (at it's launch time) being in the fuel level state as it would have been at mid-point in its 600 km range flight. Can't a missile that has completed half it's 600 km flight and exhausted nearly half the fuel complete the remaining half of its flight or does it fall prey to some quackery of f=md???

My goodness.............. What you do have in breakfast? Or is it some sort of CT Syndrome which have effected you?
Where in any official comment you have read that it is able to fly only half the distance of what it is designed for? Only because its design is based on Oniks doesn't mean that it carries each and every aspect of Oniks. Lets have a look at their dimension and rather then following some unknown mysterious source, I'd use the well known public source.
For Brahmos:
Weight--------------------------- 3 ton
Length--------------------------- 28ft
Diameter------------------------ 2 ft
Warhead------------------------ 200 kg (land attack version)
Speed--------------------------- Mach 2.8 to 3
For Oniks:
Weight--------------------------- 3 ton
Length--------------------------- 29.2.ft
Diameter------------------------- 2.3 ft
Warhead------------------------- 250 kg
Speed---------------------------- Mach 2.5

Now if you compare, Oniks is bigger then Brahmos in Dimension and interestingly still weighs the same. So by going through your logic, a half filled Brahmos is on terms with Oniks regarding weight issue. So by increasing the fuel, we would be increasing its weight.
Now lets look at another aspect, speed. Oniks is bit slow and also its minimum flight altitude is double of Brahmos. Now it does produce a thrust of 4 ton and by that logic, Brahmos should also produce thrust equals to that or a bit more given its comparative higher speed at lower altitude. It means the RAMJET used in Brahmos is using more fuel per second in comparison to that of Oniks. Now if you change its fuel injection rate and bring it down, it would effectively decrease its thrust and thus its speed, but no way you are going to attain the range.
So in short, if you want to attain range you would have to increase the fuel capacity or would have to tweak with the engine. Now increasing fuel would eventually mean increase in weight and to perform with the new weight just like what it is doing now, you do seriously need to have a relook at its engine. Brhmos is just based on Oniks, it doesn't carry the same specifics of Oniks.

 

[Scrutator]

My goodness.............. What you do have in breakfast? Or is it some sort of CT Syndrome which have effected you?
Where in any official comment you have read that it is able to fly only half the distance of what it is designed for? Only because its design is based on Oniks doesn't mean that it carries each and every aspect of Oniks. Lets have a look at their dimension and rather then following some unknown mysterious source, I'd use the well known public source.
For Brahmos:
Weight--------------------------- 3 ton
Length--------------------------- 28ft
Diameter------------------------ 2 ft
Warhead------------------------ 200 kg (land attack version)
Speed--------------------------- Mach 2.8 to 3
For Oniks:
Weight--------------------------- 3 ton
Length--------------------------- 29.2.ft
Diameter------------------------- 2.3 ft
Warhead------------------------- 250 kg
Speed---------------------------- Mach 2.5

Now if you compare, Oniks is bigger then Brahmos in Dimension and interestingly still weighs the same. So by going through your logic, a half filled Brahmos is on terms with Oniks regarding weight issue. So by increasing the fuel, we would be increasing its weight.
Now lets look at another aspect, speed. Oniks is bit slow and also its minimum flight altitude is double of Brahmos. Now it does produce a thrust of 4 ton and by that logic, Brahmos should also produce thrust equals to that or a bit more given its comparative higher speed at lower altitude. It means the RAMJET used in Brahmos is using more fuel per second in comparison to that of Oniks. Now if you change its fuel injection rate and bring it down, it would effectively decrease its thrust and thus its speed, but no way you are going to attain the range.
So in short, if you want to attain range you would have to increase the fuel capacity or would have to tweak with the engine. Now increasing fuel would eventually mean increase in weight and to perform with the new weight just like what it is doing now, you do seriously need to have a relook at its engine. Brhmos is just based on Oniks, it doesn't carry the same specifics of Oniks.

Dude!!! I thought you went away!!! But you're back nagging about the same issue!!! Why don't you take your fight to sayareakd - he agrees with the reality of Brahmos actually being a 600 km missile (he's also the moderator of this group, so I presume he knows something)!!

But it's my weakness never to let down a curious mind. So I'll indulge a little more (hope I don't regret this!!)

Firstly Brahmos was supposed to be a revised/improvement over Oniks; as such it's not a surprise that the parameters are slightly improved over Oniks!! Can you imagine a supposedly new 3 ton missile (just like the old Oniks) that actually flies only half the distance of the old missile and India paying 50% of the new development costs??? Even with your own quackery of F=md, half the range (with design improvements) should have resulted in loss of half the weight of Oniks (sounds logical??). As a reference, the new Brahmos-NG actually does travel only 290 kms and will weigh less than half of Brahmos/Oniks (ring a bell?).

If you're saying that the extended range of Brahmos needs a complete redesign, new engine etc, how come there is no new name for this brand new missile?? There's Brahmos-A for air launched one (even with minimal change - just got rid of the booster!!!), then there's Brahmos-NG that's been talked about for a while (the government has been dilly-dallying about sanctioning the project for a while!!). Even software changes et al created Block II, Block III etc. There's talk about 'project work' on Block IV. Can you tell me what the name of this brand new missile is? what is the budget for the missile development program? what is the project schedule (isn't it customary for the R&D folks to say that they'll have it ready in 2-5 years)? How many of the new missiles will be ordered (has it been projected yet?)?

All that Russians/Indians are saying is the Brahmos range will be extended - which is that the range of the existing missile will be extended!!!
The best thing for you to do is chill, wait for few months and you'll hear that the missiles have been range extended!! It'll be a nice surprise for you.

That still leaves my initial question unanswered: Will Brahmos-A also be range extended. Nobody's seems to know!!!

 

[Chinmoy]

Dude!!! I thought you went away!!! But you're back nagging about the same issue!!! Why don't you take your fight to sayareakd - he agrees with the reality of Brahmos actually being a 600 km missile (he's also the moderator of this group, so I presume he knows something)!!

But it's my weakness never to let down a curious mind. So I'll indulge a little more (hope I don't regret this!!)

Firstly Brahmos was supposed to be a revised/improvement over Oniks; as such it's not a surprise that the parameters are slightly improved over Oniks!! Can you imagine a supposedly new 3 ton missile (just like the old Oniks) that actually flies only half the distance of the old missile and India paying 50% of the new development costs??? Even with your own quackery of F=md, half the range (with design improvements) should have resulted in loss of half the weight of Oniks (sounds logical??). As a reference, the new Brahmos-NG actually does travel only 290 kms and will weigh less than half of Brahmos/Oniks (ring a bell?).

If you're saying that the extended range of Brahmos needs a complete redesign, new engine etc, how come there is no new name for this brand new missile?? There's Brahmos-A for air launched one (even with minimal change - just got rid of the booster!!!), then there's Brahmos-NG that's been talked about for a while (the government has been dilly-dallying about sanctioning the project for a while!!). Even software changes et al created Block II, Block III etc. There's talk about 'project work' on Block IV. Can you tell me what the name of this brand new missile is? what is the budget for the missile development program? what is the project schedule (isn't it customary for the R&D folks to say that they'll have it ready in 2-5 years)? How many of the new missiles will be ordered (has it been projected yet?)?

All that Russians/Indians are saying is the Brahmos range will be extended - which is that the range of the existing missile will be extended!!!
The best thing for you to do is chill, wait for few months and you'll hear that the missiles have been range extended!! It'll be a nice surprise for you.

That still leaves my initial question unanswered: Will Brahmos-A also be range extended. Nobody's seems to know!!!

Now see................

At first, Brahmos is not only with some basic improvements over Oniks, but it does come with lot of improvement which are basically for export customer. One being accuracy and another being its guidance system. CEP of Brahmos is said to be 1 m which by far make it one of the most accurate missile. One thing you should know that India does have a share of 50.5% in this JV. As I have mentioned earlier also, its engine and guidance is Russian whereas its structure along with fuel system and software part is Indian. Now if it was as simple a case as software tweak and half filled fuel canister, India could have done it on themselves after being a member of MTCR. Why go on for such a lengthy time frame of 3 years? Moreover just mind what the report which I quoted earlier said, "Russians had started working on the extended range and expecting it to be ready by 2019". They have no where said that it would be inducted in 2019. It means it would be ready for testing and evaluations only by 2019. Moreover if you would follow its history, it was first created and then later the orders were put in place unlike other weapon system which we had. So to talk about order being placed and renaming of missile is immature enough.

Moreover as far as relation between Thrust and Mass is concerned, you can't refute the fact that increase in mass means you have to increase the thrust to propel it over the same distance. Now how you want to increase the thrust with same engine, its up to you.

Now as @sayareakd mentioned about some sort of conspiracy theory of it already being able to cover 600 km, there is nothing technical left to discuss on that point of view. The only thing you could discuss is how corporate politics work.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Brahmos-A is simply the light weight air launched version of current configuration. It has been designed to bring down the weight to 2.5 ton. As far as increasing the range of Brahmos is concerned, it would be done for mainly the surface and ship launched variant. For air force variant, it is an stand off weapon and hence no immediate need is there to increase its current range.
Second, simply by increasing the fuel amount the range increment could not be achieved. It would mean a complete new engine with current fuel, or a new fuel with current engine. There would be some design changes for the extended range Brahmos. So how much it would weight in extended range is yet to be seen.

COrrect. I think you are not talking about Brahmos -M (Mini).

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Now see................

At first, Brahmos is not only with some basic improvements over Oniks, but it does come with lot of improvement which are basically for export customer. One being accuracy and another being its guidance system. CEP of Brahmos is said to be 1 m which by far make it one of the most accurate missile. One thing you should know that India does have a share of 50.5% in this JV. As I have mentioned earlier also, its engine and guidance is Russian whereas its structure along with fuel system and software part is Indian. Now if it was as simple a case as software tweak and half filled fuel canister, India could have done it on themselves after being a member of MTCR. Why go on for such a lengthy time frame of 3 years? Moreover just mind what the report which I quoted earlier said, "Russians had started working on the extended range and expecting it to be ready by 2019". They have no where said that it would be inducted in 2019. It means it would be ready for testing and evaluations only by 2019. Moreover if you would follow its history, it was first created and then later the orders were put in place unlike other weapon system which we had. So to talk about order being placed and renaming of missile is immature enough.

Moreover as far as relation between Thrust and Mass is concerned, you can't refute the fact that increase in mass means you have to increase the thrust to propel it over the same distance. Now how you want to increase the thrust with same engine, its up to you.

Now as @sayareakd mentioned about some sort of conspiracy theory of it already being able to cover 600 km, there is nothing technical left to discuss on that point of view. The only thing you could discuss is how corporate politics work.

Saraswat himself had said that Brahmos had 600 Km range in Hi Hi mode.

 

[Chinmoy]

Saraswat himself had said that Brahmos had 600 Km range in Hi Hi mode.

Now I have heard this a lot in this forum, but interestingly enough never came across any source where he has been quoted as saying that. In this thread too, I've not came across any such solid info or evidence of him saying so. Even then if we consider that it is capable of doing 600km in Hi-Hi mode i.e, at altitude of 14km, then why talk about it? We are talking about doubling the range to 600 km and its a well known fact that in Lo-Lo mode, its capable to do nearly 120 to 150 km. So obviously we are talking about doubling its range in Hi-Hi mode, isn't it? So if its already capable of 600 km, shouldn't we talk about 1200km?

But whatever be the range after extension, my point is that this range could not be achieved by simple software change and a bigger fuel storage. You need to do some serious reworking on engine or fuel or on the whole structure at some point or other.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Now I have heard this a lot in this forum, but interestingly enough never came across any source where he has been quoted as saying that. In this thread too, I've not came across any such solid info or evidence of him saying so. Even then if we consider that it is capable of doing 600km in Hi-Hi mode i.e, at altitude of 14km, then why talk about it? We are talking about doubling the range to 600 km and its a well known fact that in Lo-Lo mode, its capable to do nearly 120 to 150 km. So obviously we are talking about doubling its range in Hi-Hi mode, isn't it? So if its already capable of 600 km, shouldn't we talk about 1200km?

But whatever be the range after extension, my point is that this range could not be achieved by simple software change and a bigger fuel storage. You need to do some serious reworking on engine or fuel or on the whole structure at some point or other.

Brahmos is basically a much more capable missile so far as range is concern. So far as restricting the range to 290 Km is concern, we have to look into the matter how it was restricted. I think it was restricted by some electronic locking so no big issue in increasing the range.

 

[Chinmoy]

Brahmos is basically a much more capable missile so far as range is concern. So far as restricting the range to 290 Km is concern, we have to look into the matter how it was restricted. I think it was restricted by some electronic locking so no big issue in increasing the range.

Now there lies the key.........

Unlike other cruise missile, BRAHMOS does use RAMJET propulsion. Now basically RAMJET propulsion doesn't have any moving parts like any other conventional aero engines. The key lies in the fuel injection and on air intake and exhaust. Now to regulate any of this, you would have to undertake some changes in the design. Fuel injection could be changed electronically, but as far as air intake and exhaust is concerned, you have to do some modifications in current design.
But any of these would effect the performance of missile. We know that RAMJET engine goes by the name of Flying stove. The reason for this is its immense hunger for fuel. Unlike turbo fan or turbo jet engine, its not much economic when mileage is concerned. Most of any RAMJET powered missile mass is the mass of fuel which it carries.

Now my point it, if you increase the amount of fuel in it to increase the range, then its engine would have to provide much more thrust to excel itself with that increased weight. Now more thrust means more fuel burning in this case. So just increasing the fuel content is not going to increase the range of the missile. You would have to work on the engine and kind of fuel we use. Right now we only know that it does use kerosene as fuel, but what grade of kerosene it does use is there to see.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

But whatever be the range after extension, my point is that this range could not be achieved by simple software change and a bigger fuel storage. You need to do some serious reworking on engine or fuel or on the whole structure at some point or other.

read this . It will clarify everything. Brahmos already had 600 Km range and no major modification is required.

******The increased range of the BrahMos will double the standoff engagement range to 600 kilometers for practically every platform that uses the cruise missile.

********According to a scientist at DRDO, "only very minor changes in software and hardware are required" to increase the range.


********An Indian Navy official backed this claim. "BrahMos is a re-engineered version of [the] Russian P-800 Oniks/Yakhont anti-ship missile, and no major modification is required to achieve 600-kilometers range," the official said.

******Bhonsle agrees that the range of the BrahMos missile currently in use has a 600-kilometer range.


http://www.defensenews.com/articles/with-mtcr-entry-india-to-increase-brahmos-cruise-missile-range

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Now there lies the key.........

Unlike other cruise missile, BRAHMOS does use RAMJET propulsion. Now basically RAMJET propulsion doesn't have any moving parts like any other conventional aero engines. The key lies in the fuel injection and on air intake and exhaust. Now to regulate any of this, you would have to undertake some changes in the design. Fuel injection could be changed electronically, but as far as air intake and exhaust is concerned, you have to do some modifications in current design.
But any of these would effect the performance of missile. We know that RAMJET engine goes by the name of Flying stove. The reason for this is its immense hunger for fuel. Unlike turbo fan or turbo jet engine, its not much economic when mileage is concerned. Most of any RAMJET powered missile mass is the mass of fuel which it carries.

Now my point it, if you increase the amount of fuel in it to increase the range, then its engine would have to provide much more thrust to excel itself with that increased weight. Now more thrust means more fuel burning in this case. So just increasing the fuel content is not going to increase the range of the missile. You would have to work on the engine and kind of fuel we use. Right now we only know that it does use kerosene as fuel, but what grade of kerosene it does use is there to see.

Basically the key lies in modified fuel and aerodynamic optimization along with some design change in engine. Increasing weight will lead to weight penalty. read above link I provided and you guys will not discuss anything here about increasing the Brahmos' range to 600 KM.

 

[Chinmoy]

read this . It will clarify everything. Brahmos already had 600 Km range and no major modification is required.

******The increased range of the BrahMos will double the standoff engagement range to 600 kilometers for practically every platform that uses the cruise missile.

********According to a scientist at DRDO, "only very minor changes in software and hardware are required" to increase the range.


********An Indian Navy official backed this claim. "BrahMos is a re-engineered version of [the] Russian P-800 Oniks/Yakhont anti-ship missile, and no major modification is required to achieve 600-kilometers range," the official said.

******Bhonsle agrees that the range of the BrahMos missile currently in use has a 600-kilometer range.


http://www.defensenews.com/articles/with-mtcr-entry-india-to-increase-brahmos-cruise-missile-range

Now if I to quote the report and you.

According to a scientist at DRDO, "only very minor changes in software and hardware are required" to increase the range.

Read the underlined part. You do need hardware changes. As far as range is concerned,

"BrahMos is a re-engineered version of [the] Russian P-800 Oniks/Yakhont anti-ship missile, and no major modification is required to achieve 600-kilometers range,"

.
No where it is mentioned that it already has a range of 600 km. Its only the correspondent who just said that Mr Bhosle mentioned so, and thus its not official technically.
But again let me quote something from the very article.

"With 300-kilometers range, the BrahMos had to be deployed relatively closer to the intended area. Now there would be greater flexibility in terms of deployment areas, thereby imparting surprise," according to Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Indian Army brigadier and defense analyst.

Now Mr Rahul Bhosle the same person whom the correspondent said had claimed Brahmos having 600 km clearly said that Brahmos had to be deployed near border with its 300 km range.

Now with this report, nothing is conclusive. No solid fact regarding the claim of existing 600km has been established. Anyway it all seems to be just game of words. Although one thing is clear from the article that 600 km range is all about some unspecified source news and I fully agree what it said about the stability and accuracy.

"There have been a number of assertions in the past from unspecific sources that the range is actually around 600 kilometers," Bhonsle said, adding that if it were true, modifications to the missile would likely be for stability and accuracy improvements and "not necessarily to enhance range."

Now again this report did proved what I was saying. Brahmos is not flying to 600 km range at present officialy and to make it do so, hardware changes in required.

 

[Shadow]

Air launched Bhramos
................

 

[ezsasa]

One more confirmation on Brahmos-ER...
Let's if anything concrete is announced during Russian Deputy PM's visit to india next week..

India and Russia to increase range of #BrahMos missile .

 

[scatterStorm]

Air launched Bhramos
................

Great vid, thanks for sharing. Oh man it fired my brain cell like I am high on drugs or some shit. Anyways here are couple of interesting observation I made:

1. The possible altitude at which missile is being ejected is b/w 9 - 12Km above sea level.

2. The modifications work out to be good, the fins provide that roll for stability.

3. The booster seems to be reduced, which is true.

4. The most important bit, the nose dive was good, hence the successful trial!

Just waiting for a new vid to pop up for my next dosage!