Blitzkrieg of the 21st century: Russia´s hybrid warfare

[rock127]

You cannot compare Ukraine to Iraq. Iraq was a traditional attack and occupy. Yugoslavia was a civil war, Libya also. Ukraine is a big modern European country. The way Russia has infiltrated, used propaganda and deception is masterful.

Remember that less than ten years ago Russia was developing strong ties with EU, then they suddenly started this idea of "Russian world" and all that comes with it. Just like Hitler created this imaginary "Aryan world" and all that came with it.

I think that you Indians should study closely this conflict, whether it ends with Russian victory or not. My prediction is that the next big conflict between India and Pakistan will follow These footsteps:

1. India starts to blame Pakistan for mistreating Hindus in certain regions
2. India supports Hindu separatism, and launches huge media offensive in the west to blame Muslims as anti-Indian.
3. India counts on Wests anti Muslim sentiment and expanses the conflict.
4. Muslims in India start to blame Pakistan as a failed state and demands it treats Hindus like India treats Muslims.
5. India supports pro India politicians in Pakistan and simultaneously arms radical groups in border area.
6. The world media starts to speculate that for the stability of the region it would be good to have more secular Pakistan, maybe even rejoining to "Greater India". Indians rally for a charismatic leader who can unite the two countries again.

Your understanding of India is extremely limited and it's not the first time I have to tell you this.

Change "India" and "Hindu" with "Pakistan" and "Muslims".It's a good idea to first spend some time learning about this region as a whole and not what some stupid peace loving far from reality living in a cocoon in Northen Europe.

 

[jouni]

I'm really beginning to wonder if you are 12 or something ?

There is a strong support base for Russia in the South and East of Ukraine. The only part of Ukraine that is actually anti-Rus is Western Ukr. (polish influence)

There is no such support base for India in Pakistan. The Hindus that were left over in Pakistan, were systematically converted or exterminated (kinda similar to how pro-Russians are exterminated in Ukraine these days.)

So my advise is to try and put at least a few facts into your usual propaganda, so that it may seem remotely appealing and so that when I counter it, I feel like I'm actually doing something.

I think Ukraine is pretty homogeneous country. This conflict is about clever propaganda and ruthless expansionism rather than anything else. Like jews were an excuse for Hitler, defending russians is an excuse for Putin.

Russia is creating a new doctrine which can be applied to all situations.

 

[jouni]

Our friend @jouni has the same narrative. Let me take the liberty to turn his narratives into a metaphor (partially hypothetical).

Inane, but similies:
"Hitler had a pet dog. Putin also has a pet dog. That reminds me of Hitler."
"Hitler visited Mercedes-Benz factory. Putin visited KamAZ factory. That reminds me of Hitler."

Inane, and non-sequitur:
"Hitler took over Sudetenland. Putin took over Crimea. This reminds me of Hitler."
In reality, Hitler forcibly took over Sudetenland without a referendum. Putin accepted Crimea's request for accession to the Russian Federation after Crimea voted in a referendum to join the Russian Federation.

Inane, and narcissistic:
"Putin destabilized Ukraine. This reminds me of Hitler."
In reality, the west destabilized Ukraine for several years, and finally, the west backed Ukro-Nazis carried out a coup d'état, that ousted a democratically elected President, and installed a puppet dictator.

Inane, and sadistic:
"Russia invaded Ukraine."
In reality, we have seen the Kiev regime thugs shell civilians and we have seen bloodied dead bodies of civilians, women, old people, children, blown to bits by Kiev regime's indiscriminate shelling.

Sometimes your blind Putinism reminds me of this phenomenom of how intelligent can turn to...

Hitler's Willing Executioners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pmaitra]

I think Ukraine is pretty homogeneous country. This conflict is about clever propaganda and ruthless expansionism rather than anything else. Like jews were an excuse for Hitler, defending russians is an excuse for Putin.

Russia is creating a new doctrine which can be applied to all situations.

Look at the word emboldened and in red.

You think. That is the what it is all about.

You also think Prince Rurik was Finnish.

You think a lot of things.

I have to respect your freedom of thought.

BTW, Jews were being persecuted by Hitler. Putin is protecting the Russians. Therein lies the difference.

Your logic is something like this: A bird flies in the air. A fish lives in the sea. Therefore, they are very similar. You find similarity in opposites.

 

[pmaitra]

Sometimes your blind Putinism reminds me of this phenomenom of how intelligent can turn to...

Hitler's Willing Executioners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No, I am just making, perhaps a futile attempt, to shepherd you out of you blind anti-Putinism.

Prince Hamlet also saw the apparition of his dead father, but he didn't see it all day and all night. It is a state of mind.

 

[jouni]

Look at the word emboldened and in red.

You think. That is the what it is all about.

You also think Prince Rurik was Finnish.

You think a lot of things.

I have to respect your freedom of thought.

BTW, Jews were being persecuted by Hitler. Putin is protecting the Russians. Therein lies the difference.

Your logic is something like this: A bird flies in the air. A fish lives in the sea. Therefore, they are very similar. You find similarity in opposites.

I guess it is a cultural thing. Here in the quiet north people have always had time to think and see beyond the obvious. I know that in a country with 1.25bn people that is luxury not many can afford.

 

[pmaitra]

I guess it is a cultural thing. Here in the quiet north people have always had time to think and see beyond the obvious. I know that in a country with 1.25bn people that is luxury not many can afford.

Ah, finally you got it.

Yes, we ride a bicycle to work. You probably drive to work.

Economic sanctions will break your back. We will be fine. :thumb:

 

[sgarg]

Ok, we will see. Remember that a year ago conflict between Ukraine and Russia was "an absurd idea", "unthinkable", "never gonna happen with brother nations". At least you agree with my basic idea, with some clarifications.

An idea of Ukraine/Russia conflict was very much present in 1998-99, about 15 years past. So your statement that it was unthinkable one year ago does not cut ice with me. My knowledge of problems in Russia/Ukraine relationship dates back to 20th century.

 

[sgarg]

@jouni, nobody can have an intelligent discussion on the basis of a propaganda source. I hope you understand that.

You present good data, and YOUR analysis of that data; and that can be basis for a good discussion.

 

[jouni]

@jouni, nobody can have an intelligent discussion on the basis of a propaganda source. I hope you understand that.

You present good data, and YOUR analysis of that data; and that can be basis for a good discussion.

Yes, I have learned that our tradition is to understand both eastern and western propaganda. Then afterwards make your own conclusions based on both. That approach does not work here. I hope Indian general staff have different approach, otherwise you make things too easy for your enemy. Obviously you trust that your adversaries are equally naive.

 

[Razor]

I think Ukraine is pretty homogeneous country. This conflict is about clever propaganda and ruthless expansionism rather than anything else.

1. Either you are using the propaganda tactic of repeating a lie several times to make it seem to your audience that it is true, which is pathetic or
2. you genuinely don't know about a country in your own neighborhood, which is even more pathetic.

Yes, I have learned that our tradition is to understand both eastern and western propaganda. Then afterwards make your own conclusions based on both. That approach does not work here. I hope Indian general staff have different approach, otherwise you make things too easy for your enemy. Obviously you trust that your adversaries are equally naive.

Mark Twain said: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."
It applies well for you.

 

[sgarg]

Yes, I have learned that our tradition is to understand both eastern and western propaganda. Then afterwards make your own conclusions based on both. That approach does not work here. I hope Indian general staff have different approach, otherwise you make things too easy for your enemy. Obviously you trust that your adversaries are equally naive.

You are actually quite wrong. Indians are getting information from English language media which is dominated by Western propaganda.
Indians read very little of Russian propaganda due to language barrier.

 

[jouni]

1. Either you are using the propaganda tactic of repeating a lie several times to make it seem to your audience that it is true, which is pathetic or
2. you genuinely don't know about a country in your own neighborhood, which is even more pathetic.



Mark Twain said: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt."



It applies well for you.

Russians are minority in every part of Ukraine, except Crimea.

 

[sgarg]

Please also write the source of your data.
Ukraine has been losing its population very strongly since the fall of USSR. A lot of people have emigrated to other countries.
A correct census has to take into account all people resident or not.

As this problem is now a war, it will be decided by the outcome of the war. It is unlikely that any referendum will decide it.

 

[Razor]

Russians are minority in every part of Ukraine, except Crimea.

Did I say anything about ethnic Russians ?

Don't try to be too sneaky and contort my post with your propaganda.

This is what I wrote in that previous post.

I'm really beginning to wonder if you are 12 or something ?

There is a strong support base for Russia in the South and East of Ukraine. The only part of Ukraine that is actually anti-Rus is Western Ukr. (polish influence)

There is no such support base for India in Pakistan. The Hindus that were left over in Pakistan, were systematically converted or exterminated (kinda similar to how pro-Russians are exterminated in Ukraine these days.)

So my advise is to try and put at least a few facts into your usual propaganda, so that it may seem remotely appealing and so that when I counter it, I feel like I'm actually doing something.

No mention of ethnic Russians. I merely said there "is a strong support base for Russia in the South and East of Ukraine."

What you should really be looking at is the voting pattern.

2006

2007

2010

2012

Do you see the difference b/w West ukr and East ukr ?

 

[jouni]

Did I say anything about ethnic Russians ?

Don't try to be too sneaky and contort my post with your propaganda.

This is what I wrote in the previous post.



No mention of ethnic Russians. I merely said there "is a strong support base for Russia in the South and East of Ukraine."

What you should really be looking at is the voting pattern.

2006

2007

2010

2012

Do you see the difference b/w West ukr and East ukr ?

Do you have the map of the latest elections? It would be interesting to compare?

 

[sgarg]

Do you have the map of the latest elections? It would be interesting to compare?

The last election does not matter as this is wartime and population is under duress. As I said earlier, any referendum has no value now until military angle is resolved.

The migration is still strong out of Ukraine, even from Kiev ruled areas.

 

[jouni]

The last election does not matter as this is wartime and population is under duress. As I said earlier, any referendum has no value now until military angle is resolved.

Under duress you show your true self. Elections in Ukraine were free, also according Russians.

 

[Razor]

Do you have the map of the latest elections? It would be interesting to compare?

OCT 2014
Not much has changed. Also note that 2014 election had the lowest turnout ever in Ukrainian history. With places like Odessa have 39% turnout.
So you can bet good money, the pro-Russia sentiments are just sleeping, ready to surface later.

Fact is Ukraine is two nations put together into one.
What is happening now is one part of the nation (West ukr) is trying to make the other part obey its orders. Might lead to split.

 

[The Last Stand]

I think that you Indians should study closely this conflict, whether it ends with Russian victory or not. My prediction is that the next big conflict between India and Pakistan will follow These footsteps:

1. India starts to blame Pakistan for mistreating Hindus in certain regions
2. India supports Hindu separatism, and launches huge media offensive in the west to blame Muslims as anti-Indian.
3. India counts on Wests anti Muslim sentiment and expanses the conflict.
4. Muslims in India start to blame Pakistan as a failed state and demands it treats Hindus like India treats Muslims.
5. India supports pro India politicians in Pakistan and simultaneously arms radical groups in border area.
6. The world media starts to speculate that for the stability of the region it would be good to have more secular Pakistan, maybe even rejoining to "Greater India". Indians rally for a charismatic leader who can unite the two countries again.

Pakistan treats Hindus horribly, in case you didn't know
Pakistan's shrinking minority space
Pakistan Struggles to Protect Religious Minorities

Etc.

There are a hundred other articles I can mention, but the thing is that Pakistan is 'Islamic', insensitive, and racist. They mistreat Christians, Ahmadis, Jews and Hindus equally badly.

India simply does not believe in unnecessary conflict. We do not need religious justification for a war - if Pakistan crosses LoC, we will retaliate with force. If they invade we will chase them back. Only if there is a genocide as in 1971, will there be an invasion.

The constitution of India guarantees that the state will not tolerate religious oppression. Even though we are a Hindu-majority nation, most of the people do not support Hindu separatism. If anything, we will only blame Pakistani Muslims as anti-Indian. We have a lot of Muslim icons in our nation like Shri. APJ Abdul Kalam, who was a president of India, AR Rahman, a respected music composer and late Maulana Azad, a respected freedom fighter and others.

Other than that, Bangalorean's excellent post covers it.