Bismillah to be dropped from Bangladesh's Constitution

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by JayATL, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    Now that Bangladesh has shown some true secular grit and changes by soon dropping Bismillah from it's constitution. Is time time India also learns from it.

    Why do courts in India dispense Hindu laws in a marriage or whatever other religious laws when it comes to marriage?

    Why does India subsidize the Muslims for Haj? can Christians not be given the same for Bethlehem? how about paying NRI' Hindus to travel to some temple of their choice in India?

    Religion should have not an constitutional basis in a democracy period. Show me a single country whose constitution is run by religion or evasive elements of it, that is a considered a developed nation.

    Remove all religion from govt.
    Why is tax payer money going towards funding religious factions? .
    Why has nobody challenged this in the supreme court?


    If you want to fund a religious outing or interfere in marriage- then don't use tax payer monies to do so. Private entities can fund these things till kingdom come for all I care!



    http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/more.php?news_id=125666&date=2011-02-10
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
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  3. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    What's the source? All threads started without sources/links are mere propaganda.
     
  4. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    Aren't you the self appointed forum fairy! Your propensity to be slow not withstanding. the thread is not about Bangladesh, its about India. even so I have added a link to make sure you don't have your delicate senses in a turmoil.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  5. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    I will let my signature talk this while, and not report your continuous insults to forum members, even esteemed ones, this once.

    The news link you have provided and I quote:
    'The parliamentary special committee on constitutional amendment has recommended restoring the preamble of the 1972 constitution, meaning that "Bismillah-Ar-Rahman-Ar-Rahim" will be dropped from the section, reports bdnews24.com.

    "We have unanimously decided to restore the preamble of the 1972 constitution," Suranjit Sengupta, the committee's co-chair, told reporters after the 7th meeting at parliament building Wednesday.

    With the replacement of the present preamble with the 1972 one, "Bismillah-Ar-Rahman-Ar-Rahim", "In the name of Allah, the beneficent, the Merciful" and "pledging that the high ideals of absolute trust and faith in the Almighty Allah" will go.

    Main opposition BNP's founder Ziaur Rahman, in November 1977, through a military proclamation amended the 1972 constitution and inserted the aforesaid terms in the preamble of the constitution.

    Zia also wrote "the war for national independence" instead of "national struggle" in the second paragraph of the preamble.

    According to the guidelines of the constitution, only a two-thirds majority in parliament can amend the highest charter.

    Zia's proclamation was inserted in the constitution by the BNP-led second parliament in April 1979. This insertion is known as fifth amendment, which changed the secular character of the 1972 constitution.
    '

    is about Bangladesh. You have even changed the thread title. In forums, the thumb rule is to post a thread with the original title and then post your ideas/questions/clarifications as a second post. Not your fault. Education comes with a price.

    Thank You very Much! I have a penchant for originals, not make believes from hobbits.

    I see you edited your post again. This is a question only Mods can clarify. You are free to ask!
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  6. warriorextreme

    warriorextreme Senior Member Senior Member

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    learn what??
    our constitution respects every religion...
    we dont ask anyone to stop wearing burqa or turban...
    secular constitution does not mean atheist constitution...
     
  7. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    -- Haj Subsidy is being phased out. Old news if you keep track. Richer Hajis will be paying a premium for the poorer pilgirms.

    -- Pilgrims traveling Manas sarovar are also paid some small amount as fund. I don't remember if Christians ever asked for such subsidy. NRI funding if any are handled separately but no requests made as long as I remember.

    -- Constitution of other countries if ran by religious elements is not subject of academic arguments for Indian state. And religious elements are not running Indian Constitution!!

    -- You can not remove religion from Indian laws. They continue to exist because faith in Indian citizens continue to exist. If Indian tax-payer is requesting help from Govt then Govt will review it & may or may not grant it keeping secure the fact that its citizen can seek help, be it financial.

    -- This is no eureka. Issues have been raised to SC many a times by many citizens/religious groups/political parties & SC gave them appropriate reply time to time.

    ------------

    However, I don't see anything Indian Laws can learn from Bangladesh. Such idea itself is absurd.


    Added Later:

    :shocked::shocked:
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  8. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    I'd like to know , which side of the fence are you on. You seem to say that religious preferences have no basis in govt currently or shortly but then turn around and say they have and have so because what ( and I quote) " You can not remove religion from Indian laws. They continue to exist because faith in Indian citizens continue to exist." Hope you can see where one maybe be confused as to what is your stance or claim.

    Separation of Church and state is what is called in the US. essentially, you can't have the govt favor religion or religions period. Indian constitution being based on similar democracy and its tenets. I think these verdicts from high courts or the govt that favor or interfere one religion over the other is and should be unconstitutional !

    Till just a few days ago did the high court not issue a statement or verdict regarding Hindu marriage acts?

    Btw. I am changing " religion should not have any basis in a democracy to any " constitutional " basis in a democracy. That's what i intended it to say. thanks for pointing it out.


    P.S. when I cite example of NRI asking for funding or Christians asking blah blah- they are NOT to be taken as actualities. they are simply " what if" examples to show the disparity . I think its called hypothetical scenarios
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  9. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    Warrior you must reread mypost. slowly and deliberately :D
     
  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Interpret the difference between -

    GOI's decisions influenced by religion A in turn affecting rest of the citizens.

    & Laws established to protect citizen's faith, practices & its demands.


    I believe we are talking about Union of India not US.

    First decide scope of discussion of your topic which is clearly lacking aim whatsoever.

    As long as citizens follow certain/variety of faiths, basic assumptions & religious guidelines are essential in democracy.
     
  11. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    ^^^ HUH? oh geez not another one of those. the scope( LOL) is that courts nor govt have a right to issue religions verdicts in a secular constitution as India claims itself to be. The example, you found to be lacking in direction--- is that proof of religious favoritism , even if it bypassed you. :).

    Can you stick to how decisions made by the govt or courts that are subject to one's religion is constitutional . I know you missed the intent of the US analogy_ in that was I pointing to my understanding that freedom of and from religion is one of the tenets shared by both democracies. BUT , disregard if it muddies the water .
    Not if you are secular in your constitution! do you not get it? the govt or courts have no business in imparting any guidelines that favor one over the other.

    If you consider all citizens to be equal then you must respect the rights of every citizen
    If you consider every citizen to have freedom of religion , then you cannot favor one over the other
    if you consider every citizen to right to practice their religious faith, you can't say one supersedes another in marriage.
    IF you are a secular country , then you must also protect equal rights of atheist too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  12. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    What is it that you want India to learn? Have you not read the article you posted the link for? I would go ahead and congratulate the Bangladeshis, while I uphold the Constitution of India – for it never had to decide on whether to drop Ram or to include Allah. It’s Secular, if you didn’t know it.

    And what is wrong in that? Do you even know what you are taking about? I know you will come back later after some googling, but Hindu marriage laws do not apply to people who are Muslims, Christians, Jews, Parsis and whosoever is governed by any other law.

    Please have a read:
    Here & Here.

    GoI subsidized Haj for poor Muslims, so that every Muslim can take a pilgrimage to Mecca during the month of Dhu al-Hijja. Partition left most Muslims penniless. And as nrj pointed out, it is being phased out now. One more point I'd like to add is that, subsidizing Haj by the GoI was a positive move for those patriotic Muslims who believed in India and stayed on battling the riots of Partition.

    AFAIK, Christians have not asked for it. And why only NRI Hindus, why not Hindus residing in India?

    You really got to be kidding. But that’s what you are good at. Being stupid and fallacious.
     
  13. LurkerBaba

    LurkerBaba Staff Administrator

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    :usa: :usa:


    Loony stuff like Creationism/Intelligent Design is being taught in a developed nation such as the United States of America. Pretty sad stuff considering the literacy rate there is >97 %

    The land of snake charmers is better off.


    Bill Aims To Put Intelligent Design Into NM Schools


     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  14. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Its not favoritism but gratified demand. If other religion practitioners demand same & are rejected without justification calling it Verdict then it is favoritism.

    ------------

    Its shouldn't be hard for non-Indians to comprehend the difference here but nevertheless, US does not share diversity India has & hence it draws the required lines where required apart from freedom concepts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  15. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    Okay, last attempt- when you say the Hindu religion in that specific court ruling supersedes another religion in a marriage- its called favoritism.

    The US has no hindus, jews, muslims etc? they have plenty of diversity in large numbers( millions) , when it comes to religion. finally, it's still hard for this Indian to comprehend how you can be called secular and you religion as basis of a ruling or some religions enjoying more " govt funded access"
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  16. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yeah and again your point is? this is second thread you have come in and posted and debated things that have zero to do with the question at hand.

    Its constitution - separation of church and state has nothing to do with a some religious groups preaching creationism.

    What's your next example: "The US has people practicing witchcraft" so that would mean they don't have separation of church and state?

    I know you have a hard on for all things US, but you have to pay attention to the topic at hand.

    That story about the US rep putting forth a bill in some local state - means nothing LOL. Every politician has a right to put forth a bill- does it not in India? does not mean it will get passed and even if it does on a state level. It will be shot down by the courts!
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  17. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I hope you were helped with this -

    http://www.surfindia.com/matrimonials/hindu-marriage-acts.html

    Only if both parties are Hindus then the marriage comes under Hindu marriage Acts.
    Those who are excited with Secularism concepts certainly don't want their marriage identified by facilities provided by such Act, so they just marry.

    ---

    I am not obsessed with US & what it follows.
     
  18. LurkerBaba

    LurkerBaba Staff Administrator

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    :) Religious groups are not involved in teaching creationism. This is happening in public school i.e Government Schools.

    But I assumed this to be common knowledge for an American, in fact it's used by the Republicans as measure to secure their votebanks


    Bill Brady: Let Schools Teach Creationism


    Read this recent news snippet


    Creationism 'alive and well' in Minnesota biology classes

    Shocking indeed...
     
  19. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Delhi high court (HC), clearing doubts about the Hindu Marriage Act, has ruled that to get divorce under the act, both the spouses must be Hindus. If only one of them is, the divorce can’t be granted.
    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_delhi-high-court-clarifies-hindu-marriage-act-doubts_1487884

    why is religion the basis of marriage dissolution?
     
  20. JayATL

    JayATL Senior Member Senior Member

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    Okay, I know you are an internet news warrior , but allow me to educate you. Those bills as I explained in my post earlier - are just bills put forth by a politician. In the US ( and pay attention real close guy)- politicians can introduce a bill , but it has to get voted by the house ( in this case that one states house) . This does not mean it will pass. Even if it does, it won't hold up in court as it has failed on many occasion before.

    Now a private school can teach that- but not govt funded schools!

    Citing the gibberish from some politicians don't make it law. why just today i read that BJP claimed India is at risk of Egypt like revolution because of the congress!-- now if you believe everything someone says or puts forth then you need a bomb shelter built asap.

    As I have told you before, you're being stunted in thought when you go off in your tangents without understanding the topic at hand.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  21. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Are you even aware of fundamentals of Hindu Marriages Act??


    Relevant thread already exists for this discussion. Go ahead.

    http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=17727&page=3
     

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