Beg, borrow or steal: IAF chief's advice to defence scientists

Neil

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guys why are we only looking at the word ''steal''...i mean he also said beg and borrow..!!

coming to the topic...:: this does realy shows the frustration the IAF has with DRDO...some genuine some not but it shows the level of trust in the highest level of IAF for DRDO...
 

ace009

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I would rather that India does not Beg or Steal - even Borrow sounds weak. India can BUY, COLLABORATE, PARTNER - these are more practical, less risky and definitely more honorable. India does have the money, is a democracy and has a technology base, let's not screw it all up by BBS approach.
 

Adux

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Everyone has stolen, begged and borrowed; Welcome to the world of cut throats, looking to dominate the world. I hope India doesnt bind itself like what we did with our Nuke program. Do whatever you want, get the job done. That should be the answer.
 

agentperry

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I would rather that India does not Beg or Steal - even Borrow sounds weak. India can BUY, COLLABORATE, PARTNER - these are more practical, less risky and definitely more honorable. India does have the money, is a democracy and has a technology base, let's not screw it all up by BBS approach.

you know same thing is going on since ages. a dish is made step by step, and not in one go. the engine design capability comes when they are thorough with other stuff. engine, radar and stealth comes much after being comfortable with re-designing a present aircraft in the fleet. if they would have practiced with mig-21 and su-7 India had back in 1980 and 1990 then our tejas would have been a beast actually in iaf colors and not being made fun of in every forum possible.
 

Bangalorean

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If anyone still pins their hopes on PSU organizations such as DRDO, they are deluding themselves.

We have been pouring money into these bottomless cash pits for decades, with little to show for it. Work culture in such places is terrible. Until sweeping changes are introduced, we will not see them delivering anything that the defence forces can use. I concede that ISRO is one of the better PSUs we have, but all the others such as DRDO, NAL, LRDE, etc. etc. are pathetic to the core.

I quote from the following comment on another blog (link below) (credit goes to 'Sandesh' of churumuri):

Anna-sambar & the price of ISRO's moon mission � churumuri

Having worked for a while in DRDO (LRDE actually) and now at one of the IITs, I have seen both academic and DRDO worlds. Mt two cents.

a) @Vinay, I think what folks here are demanding is a little *accountability*. No doubt, space and defense research is expensive and justified, the question is— Is the money being spent correctly ? When you pour in crores and crores of money, you expect some deliverables right? The biggest problem with DRDO is that there has been little product development commensurate with money it has received. Surely, anyone would question the futility of pouring money to these guzzlers which produce no results.

b) Contrary to what Khan might want us to believe, selection to DRDO labs and ISRO is not all 'merit based'. DRDO (and others) have not been able to attract top ranked students even from local engg colleges. Those who join are disillusioned after a couple of months..when the seniors tell them to chill out and relax, no work is assigned, and most of the time is spent on tea, lunch and more tea. Unless, the work culture changes I don't see DRDO producing anything that the defense can use.

c) No accountability. I remember that majors from army/navy/air force used to visit DRDO and the so called scientists (right from group leaders), used to shiver when these visits were scheduled. The majors would be so annoyed with non-progress in terms of product, field trials, support system, technology transfers. The few products developed are substandard, behind state of the art by 20 years and since army can't take chances in a war, we end up buying weapons from other countries (israel, russia, france and so on).

d) Once you enter DRDO you are taken care for lifetime. You get staff quarters, essential commodities at throw away prices, 8-5 working hours, no projects, and pension when you retire. It is very easy to go into the regular time pass mood and most scientists are in that mood. Those very few who work hard go away from DRDO after a few years. Overall, it is considered an 'easy life' for scientists who join DRDO.

e) DRDO scientists are now 'encouraged' to do PhD. IITs have separate quota for these scientists for the MTech and PhD courses. The pathetic level of knowledge these girls (and guys) have is a serious concern. Anyway they are least interested in gaining knowledge. They are here to get a course completion certificate which allows them to jump ahead in the career.

f) One big difference b/w US and Indian defense labs are that US defense labs (such as at Las Alamos, Argonne etc) are very very attractive for bright students. There are short term careers for those who join US labs. Once they come out, top institutions scramble to take them in. So, it is considered a great achievement to join one of the US defense labs. Can we say the same to DRDO labs ??

g) US invests heavily in the universities. Their defense comes from three sources–labs, universities, and private developers (who again are bright students from top ranking univs). India invests least in universities. A 'fast track' grant from DST takes 8-9 months to be approved and the money sanctioned is not more than 17 lakhs. This is hardly a good amount to even replicate the state of the art in the field. Also, unlike US, we have hundreds of different grant agencies (DBT, DIT, DST, CSIR,"¦) which all are plagued by the same bureaucracy problems. There is very little amount for research in IITs. Imagine the local univs and NITs.

h) hate to say this"¦ but the quality of engineers produced in India is very very poor. Those coming out of IITs, only 20% are really good. The others are only marginally better than the rest of India. And all engineers eye only s/w as profession (no fault of them though). There is hardly an ambition to take up challenges, explore new avenues and vistas, develop technology. Everyone wants a s/w job, get paid (get laid), go onsite, and procrastinate.

i) ISRO on the other hand does one job and they do it pretty good, i.e., launch spaceships/ rockets. The moon mission guzzled so much of money and used technologies from abroad as pay loads. The moon mineral mapper came from US. If ISRO shuts up its mouth, works hard on improving technology (stops taking the sons/daughters of employers as 'trainees'), and provides full details on money utilized there is no reason why space program cannot be continued. Until there is transparency, tax payers have every right to question the (f)utility of dumping money on these labs.

j) Does ISRO wants to give us data ?? Ask someone like me who approached ISRO for data on moonmapper and was told to get lost..unless I fill in hundreds of papers and write a formal proposal explaining why I need it. After 8-9 months, they would 'consider' it.
 
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agentperry

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If anyone still pins their hopes on PSU organizations such as DRDO, they are deluding themselves.

We have been pouring money into these bottomless cash pits for decades, with little to show for it. Work culture in such places is terrible. Until sweeping changes are introduced, we will not see them delivering anything that the defence forces can use. I concede that ISRO is one of the better PSUs we have, but all the others such as DRDO, NAL, LRDE, etc. etc. are pathetic to the core.

I quote from the following comment on another blog (link below) (credit goes to 'Sandesh' of churumuri):

Anna-sambar & the price of ISRO's moon mission � churumuri

what ever you say but "stomach is much much mightier than any other organ". jobs is all what they want and nothing else the achievement till now is by-product and nothing else.
 

Rehan's_Ninjato

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ACM is bang on. Beg, borrow or steal - but get it right, for heaven's sake..Who cares if its copied or innovated as long as it does its job - kicks enemies' asses and keeps the nation safe!! Its time we learn few lessons from our cross-Himalayan brothers instead of deriding them as copycats to stifle our incompetency and jealousy. Copying needs as much, if not more, brains as innovation.
 

ace009

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b) Contrary to what Khan might want us to believe, selection to DRDO labs and ISRO is not all 'merit based'. DRDO (and others) have not been able to attract top ranked students even from local engg colleges. Those who join are disillusioned after a couple of months..when the seniors tell them to chill out and relax, no work is assigned, and most of the time is spent on tea, lunch and more tea. Unless, the work culture changes I don't see DRDO producing anything that the defense can use.

c) No accountability. I remember that majors from army/navy/air force used to visit DRDO and the so called scientists (right from group leaders), used to shiver when these visits were scheduled. The majors would be so annoyed with non-progress in terms of product, field trials, support system, technology transfers. The few products developed are substandard, behind state of the art by 20 years and since army can't take chances in a war, we end up buying weapons from other countries (israel, russia, france and so on).
I can readily agree with this. I have worked in Indian academic research for several years and have realized that no matter what the mandate or what the international standards are, Indian research organizations have only one purpose - keep the scientists in their jobs - safe and secure in their arbitrary interests. If something comes out of it that is actually usable - well that's an extra. And this is in the IITs, CSIR, DST or DBT institutes. I can imagine things are much worse in a defence organization - since the bureaucracy for apparent "accountability" (read accounting) is more, while real accountability (productivity related i.e. end-product, Intellectual property, product usability, technology relevance etc) is non-existant, while the money poured into is way more.

f) One big difference b/w US and Indian defense labs are that US defense labs (such as at Las Alamos, Argonne etc) are very very attractive for bright students. There are short term careers for those who join US labs. Once they come out, top institutions scramble to take them in. So, it is considered a great achievement to join one of the US defense labs. Can we say the same to DRDO labs ??
No comments are necessary - the difference between the US defence labs and the DRDO labs are so stark that it is impossible not to feel mean about it. Really, the best and the brightest from MIT, Caltech or Stanford vie to get into the US defense labs, whereas getting into a DRDO lab is pretty far down the order for an IIT pass out.
What India needs is a big salary and prestige associated with working at DRDO, but with very little security associated with the job. The rewards would be high, but the risks would be high too. It would be simply perform or perish. The so-called "seniority" concept should be buried - no matter what your age, experience, education or "lineage" - if you cannot produce results in 5-6 years (5 years regular, 6th year a bonus if you can convince you are on the verge of something big), you are OUT!
Accountability should be more in productivity and less in accounting. No one should care two figs about where the exact 100 rupees went to as long as a product meets the testing criteria and is usable by the military. Till such end-user accountability happens instead of bean-counter accountability, NOTHING will change, EVER.

h) hate to say this"¦ but the quality of engineers produced in India is very very poor. Those coming out of IITs, only 20% are really good. The others are only marginally better than the rest of India. And all engineers eye only s/w as profession (no fault of them though). There is hardly an ambition to take up challenges, explore new avenues and vistas, develop technology. Everyone wants a s/w job, get paid (get laid), go onsite, and procrastinate.
I would agree with this. We have some of the best brains in India - we choose from them rigorously to put them into IITs, NITs or other engineering schools - and then we pretty much throw that talent down the drain.
The IIT programs are old, with bad teachers, outdated syllabus and teaching methods, inadequate hands on training and no motivation for research. In our R&D company in the USA, I have seen interns doing better undergraduate projects than the so-called PhD programs in top Engineering schools in India. This might sound bad or berating Indian education system on my part, but being a product of that system myself, and then being a part of the USA system now, I feel like the Indian system is behind by 30-40 years at best or a freaking joke at the worst.

j) Does ISRO wants to give us data ?? Ask someone like me who approached ISRO for data on moonmapper and was told to get lost..unless I fill in hundreds of papers and write a formal proposal explaining why I need it. After 8-9 months, they would 'consider' it.
Again, not surprised. In India government organizations think that their research is for themselves. The fact that they are funded by public money, hence the fruits of their labor should belong to the public, does not occur to them. It is a throwback to the old Soviet / socialist system of all fruits of public money belonging to the "state" - in this case the organization which represents the state (DRDO).
 

ace009

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ACM is bang on. Beg, borrow or steal - but get it right, for heaven's sake..Who cares if its copied or innovated as long as it does its job - kicks enemies' asses and keeps the nation safe!! Its time we learn few lessons from our cross-Himalayan brothers instead of deriding them as copycats to stifle our incompetency and jealousy. Copying needs as much, if not more, brains as innovation.
That is a dangerous path to go down. We might end up in the same situation as PRC, where no other country wants to sell weapons to us because they are afraid we will copy their technology without consent.
Then the Rafales/ Eurofighters, AESA radars, AAMs, Submarines, Tank engines etc all will disappear from our wishlist ...
I would suggest that we change the way our DRDO works - radically - and bring up Tata, Mahindra, L&T and other private sector companies to share the burden of defense R&D.
 

debasree

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actually we should congratulate him to tell the truth in black and white ,in war every method is justifiable ,isnt the old pollitical guru chanakya said it,
 

Zebra

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That is a dangerous path to go down. We might end up in the same situation as PRC, where no other country wants to sell weapons to us because they are afraid we will copy their technology without consent.
Then the Rafales/ Eurofighters, AESA radars, AAMs, Submarines, Tank engines etc all will disappear from our wishlist ...
I would suggest that we change the way our DRDO works - radically - and bring up Tata, Mahindra, L&T and other private sector companies to share the burden of defense R&D.
And that is also , ASAP .
 

asianobserve

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I keep saying this, the best way for the Indian defense industry to develop is for the government to leave the weapons development to private competition. Government set the specs and let the Indian companies battle it out.
 

SPIEZ

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ugh! that is totally not true, we are not America to privatize weapons production^^^^^^^
A lot of problems would also arise
 

nitesh

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I feel a sea change in attitude of forces coming slowly and steadily, they are willing to back the local industry. Finally, some strategic thinking is coming to forces. Right way to go.
 

Adux

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How is the maintenance standard different from the British and Americans? I have a slight bias in which Americans train and maintain their military. Which I feel we are lacking.
 

thakur_ritesh

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name of the game has always been about achieving, how one does it is irrelevant.

least i would care they do it by begging, borrowing, stealing, buying, joint-ventures, partnerships, term it all that one wants to. two things have to be met, the target and done on time.

this is where getting the private sector is so important, they would care least on how they get it done, morality would be the last thing on their mind, it will be all about getting it done, generating profits, issuing shares, earning a premium, getting higher value for the issued share, exactly how it needs to be done.

the best in the business do it, and it happens across the industries, take any.
 

venkat

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we should look in to our new product development process,military certification for flight worthiness by agencies like CEMILAC,DGAQA and other MOD certification agencies. It takes a few years for a product to come to its final shape in our scenario,where we depend on 99% imports ,especially for electronic components. The foot-in the mouth procedures laid out by babus to arrest corruption(with all these long tail procedures still millions get stashed away lolzzz) makes commercial procurements a horrific task..L1..L2...Ln etc...:frusty::frusty::frusty:.which results in either no supply or wrong component supply or a fake component supply....endless long lead times. defence systems employ cutting edge technologies which no phoren company would like to share with us. so as an egg takes 22 days to hatch these systems take their own sweet time to mature over years..in the meantime brain drain takes palce in the form of poaching ,for a better living etc...By overcoming all these infant mortalities ,if at all and ever a product comes to qualification stage ,the inspection agencies harass the designers by throwing all sorts of tantrums demanding moon,which an immature heroine throws on a filmy set. These inspection agencies have been formed during world war II by the British Raj!!! The procedures are horribly lengthy, high handedness by inspection agencies is putting off and driving crazy , a sane designer who wants to do something for his country. so as a result ,most engineers act dumb and become dumb and inefficient over a period and becomes a burden to the organization. we have to follow product development. qualification and induction adapted by IAI, LM and Boeing. Disband all Mod and DRDO based inspection agencies and give autonomy to respective company's Quality control departments. pvt companies resort to bribing if their product falls short of performance and quality, which public sectors do not care to adapt.
 
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agentperry

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the best way is to allow drdo and hal both to develop and manufacture the engines and other things like aircraft all together. private industry just dont have that much capital and experience along with bad technical knowhow. there engineers are like government engineers only who can reproduce the known product very well provided they are given corresponding technology and manufacturing processes.
another problem with private participation is that they form JV with foreign companies to domestically manufacture the foreign maal but for MoD they are still foreign maal only. so MoD prefers buying directly from the parent firm--- i dont know the logic behind it but may be they think they will somehow have better position buying offshore.
third thing is restricted and hand cuffed drdo and hal, they are so enslaved that they dont work autonomously, they wont even speak for upgradation till auditors or international delegation HUMILIATE them and dictate them to improve, particularly hal.
and last thing is lack of finance and workforce. understaffed, underpaid and poorly financed organizations dont yield good result.

saying again---- LG INDIA SPEND 2 BILLION DOLLARS FOR DEVELOPING FRIDGE, PHONES AND LCD TV WHERE AS GOI EXPECTS DRDO AND HAL TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE IRBM, ICBM, 4TH AND 5TH GEN PLANES AND TANKS IN THE VERY SAME AMOUNT. ISNT IT A SHAME
 

Tshering22

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I feel a sea change in attitude of forces coming slowly and steadily, they are willing to back the local industry. Finally, some strategic thinking is coming to forces. Right way to go.
The only problem was Army and IAF's top brass. With them always dying for foreign maal, nothing was practically possible in terms of modernization. Look at how IN managed everything far far better than other two forces and came out as the leading icon in our tri-services. Army is still the worst in that terms. IAF is now getting worse in that sense.

Wish Naik had continued as ACM for one more term.
 

no smoking

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I keep saying this, the best way for the Indian defense industry to develop is for the government to leave the weapons development to private competition. Government set the specs and let the Indian companies battle it out.
Private companies' advantage over State-control companies is their flexibility in marketing not the strength in R&D. What the india defence industry lacks most today is money and accumulated knowledge. In order to fixed these problems, only continuous investment and time can help. Nothing else!

Well, considering the general lasting time any military research (20 or even 30 years for each circle), do you realy believe private company would be better than state-own company on patient? Don't think about those big fish in developed countries, they started their work 100 years ago. To some extent, they are state-own companies!
 

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