Babri demolition: How HC verdict discredited ‘eminent’ historians

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by KS, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    Babri demolition: How HC verdict discredited ‘eminent’ historians | Firstpost


    By R Vaidyanathan


    The author is Professor of Finance and Control, IIM Bangalore, The views are personal and do not reflect that of his organisation.


    Really liked this comment -

    The British called the 1857 revolt as sepoy mutiny. But now historians call it India's first struggle for independence. Similarly secularists call 1992 as a communal act, but maybe history will see it as the first struggle of Hindus against 600 years of Islamic subjugation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
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  3. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Really? Which Islamists were "subjugating" the Hindus in 1992? A more nonsensical analogy could not be made. :rolleyes:
     
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  4. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    Congress Party is an Islamic ploy to oppress Hindus :sad:
     
  5. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    An armed struggle to make Bahadur Shah Zafar, the exiled Mughal monarch, the emperor of India was an act of independence ?
     
  6. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    No..but the structure bearing the name of the central asian invader stood on one of the holiest places for Hindus as a symbol of that "subjugation". It was taken out.

    My dad used to say that pre-1992 even somewhat moderate muslims used to say with pride that Babri masjid (name changed from Masjid-e-janmasthan) was built upon the Ram temple after destroying it and how Hind was ruled..but the same lot, did a volte face when it was brought down and started claiming how there was no temple underneath and everything was a hindu conspiracy. That arrogance of a few was also brought to ground that day.

    And the analogy was given to imply how an event which was looked as a mutiny by the lawful govt of that day is now looked as the first war of independence. Maybe this too, which is being branded communal act by a group now, would be re-interpreted in the passage of time. The first signs were visible when the hashtag "ShauryaDiwas" was trending on Twitter yesterday.
     
  7. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Next you will start culling those Hindus who converted to Islam because of invaders ?

    What if the dalits start having the same feelings, tearing down temples where the upper castes didn't allow them to enter for centuries ?

    Sample size too small, and petty vindictiveness on your part.

    War of independence ? How is it a war of independence if your aim is to make a central asian invader who tore down temples as the emperor of India. ? :rofl:

    Maybe Indians will get smarter in the future ?
     
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  8. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    To be fair, Bahadur Shah Zafar was pretty much Indian, genetically. The ~300 years of intermarriage had diluted most of the Central Asian blood.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    As we all know, there are probably countless such mosques erected all over the place on the ruins of temples across northern India. So when do the demolitions stop? Are we going to gamble away the present and future societal harmony of the country because of injustices that took place centuries ago?

    The rise of the Hindu right in India has mirrored the rise of domestic Islamic terrorism as well. From Dawood Ibrahim to the Indian Mujahideen, the more the Hindutvavadis pursue an agenda of alienation of Muslims, the more the Muslims will fight back against their marginalization in society. The Muslims already have the worst social and economic indicators of any religious community in India. There must be a concerted effort of bringing them at par with other communities....instead, the right wingers are making the situation worse by attacking the Muslim community for 500 year old grievances.

    Whether there was a Hindu temple or not is irrelevant. The price of peace, prosperity and future development is burial of old hatreds. A true nationalist would try his utmost to unify the nation against foreign forces.....to pursue a vigorous and expansionist foreign policy. Instead, these morons of the BJP which pass for "nationalists" nowadays pursue an internal battle against their own citizens while adopting a more pusillanimous foreign policy than any previous Congress governments.

    No way will this be re-interpreted in any other way except by the fanboys of the lunatic Right. The demolition of the mosque, besides being an illegal act, resulted in riots and deaths of innocent civilians all across the country, both Hindu and Muslim. It was closely followed by the Mumbai bomb blasts which were a retaliation from Dawood and his henchmen.

    Of course, while innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with the issue died, the perpetrators of the heinous crimes, those BJP leaders that made provocative hate speeches like LK Advani and Vajpayee got away unscathed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  10. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    Not all demolitions were on spots as sacred as Ayodhya which is one of the seven most sacred places and where one attains moksha. Even as far as I know the claims of even the fringe right included Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura. And even if Ayodhya is conceded from one side, the other side will concede the Kashi and Mathura part where temples already exist nearby.


    And the more they will suffer in reactionary incidents.

    I'm sorry if you could muster only this lame defence for the islamic radicalization which actually had its roots in Kashmir and the jihad against kaffir india, then this is one I could muster. This domestic reason for Islamic jihad activites was one propped only lately by these apologists who sought to create a non-existant equal equal between a form of terrorism based on a hegemonic agenda of global supremacy, annihilation of infidels and religious subjugation of their lands to a violence that was perperated as a reactionary mechanism. Not that it is defensible or correct, but they cannot be equated with the global menace of jihadism. If Islamic radicalism was because of Hindutvadi nonsense, pray tell me what was the reason lakks of Hindus were killed, raped and chased out of the Kashmir Valley..? You get everything in the reverse chronoligical order..this militant form of hindu reactionism was directly because of a rising trend of jihadi activities and not the other way around.

    Muslims need to firmly implant one thing in their mind - they CANNOT come up on par with other communities by making enemies out of Hindus, but only by learning to live with them.


    Let's stop from passing judgements whether its relevant or irrelevant. As much as its irrelevant to you, its relevant to me


    Time will tell :)

    Moreover the demolition itself was not an illegal act and it was bound to happen one way or other, one day or other..maybe one can argue the timing of it was wrong since the matter was subjudice...but then again, if it had not been pulled down there was no way in hell an archaelogical surrvey which needs excavation of the site would have been permitted and truth would no have been surfaced. It would have remained buried under the ruins of the dilapidated structure. So all in all, it was a good one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  11. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    @Singh and @Known_Unknown

    This thread, I opened not to discuss about the demolition or its background or its consequeces..but HOW a section of the academia, the so called EMINENT HISTORIANS have committed academic dishonesty, idealogical perversion and political chicanery in trying to suppress the truth and pass of manipulated facts and spurious opinions as history. This is not limited to this episode alone, but in a very general context.

    So instead of beating the same horse again, provide your opinion on the topic.
     
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  12. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    I see no "eminent historians" referenced in that article except R.S. Sharma, and I do not see any opinion or quote attributed to him.

    I would suggest you stop attacking the imaginary "eveel Leftist historians" who supposedly destroyed the study of Indian history.
     
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  13. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    @KS

    Ulta chor kotwal ko dante ?

    You were the one who was bringing in all and sundry. KU and I were merely critiquing the arguments of the author.
     
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  14. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Who is this "one side" who will concede or make demands on the behalf of Hindus? What is their standing? Who gave them the right to speak on the behalf of all Hindus? Their concessions or demands mean nothing, because they represent nobody but themselves. When the demolition took place in 1992, no one had even heard of the BJP, so it is quite ingenious that they claimed to take the law into their own hands on the behalf of all Hindus.

    Even if they were deemed to represent the "Hindu" voice, what do their repeated defeats in national elections for the past decade tell us? That Hindus have rejected the party that claims to represent them, along with its irrelevant agenda.

    You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either concede that the Ram and other temple issues are irrelevant because the party that espouses them has no popular support or admit the BJP does not represent the "Hindu voice" of the country and so has no right to negotiate anything on their behalf.


    I am surprised you link the Babri masjid demolition to Kashmiri extremism. What does razing a temple in Ayodhya have to do with terrorism in Kashmir? This lame argument is also made by Shiv Sainiks-that they are defending the country from Muslim extremism. Well if that's the case, why act like pussies and beat up innocent Muslims who have nothing to do with Kashmir? Why not take the bull by the horns, go to Kashmir and fight the terrorists yourself. The Hindu right-wing has a long history of cowardice starting from Nathuram Godse who preferred to shoot dead Gandhi for partition instead of the real villain, Jinnah, because he didn't have the balls to fight against the truly extremist Muslims.

    If you reject the fact that domestic Islamic terrorism (excluding Kashmir) started due to the rise of the Hindu right wing, pray tell, where were the Dawood Ibrahims for 50 years of the Kashmir conflict? Why did one suddenly appear after the Babri demolition? Where were the Indian Mujahideen like groups until 2006?

    Fact is, there was no domestic Islamic terrorism until the rise of the Hindu right. Kashmir is a separate issue altogether-if the Hindu right wanted to retaliate for the expulsion of the Kashmiri Brahmins, they should have gone to Kashmir and fought the terrorists if they had the balls to do so. Instead, they preferred to attack unarmed, innocent Muslim civilians elsewhere in the country.
     
  15. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    You guys clung onto the comment of a reader which I quoted and not onto the arguments of the author :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  16. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    The right wing orgs like VHP who played the lead in the mobilization of the Ram Janmabhoomi Movement. And trust me they had a lot of standing among the Hindus that time. Else you would not have lakhs of karsevaks mobilizing in Ayodhya or millions more who supported them from their homes.



    By the same argument, what does razing a disputed structure in Ayodhya UP has to do anything with train blasts in Mumbai some 1500 kms away ? :)
     
  17. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    One cannot provide an informed opinion on an obviously biased, one-sided article unless one goes through the other side of the argument as well. Since the court case spanned more than a decade and the judgement probably runs into hundreds of pages, it is easy to cherry pick what is convenient to present one view however, only a neutral journalist or a seasoned researcher will be able to draw a balanced conclusion after reviewing all the necessary documentation.
     
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  18. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    You are free to apple pick and provide the "other side". But if you are not able to do that, the least is atleast trying to comment on an evidently well researched article exposing the fraud that is the court history in India.

    And how it is biased - the author extensibvely quotes the exact wording of the historians, their earlier claims and their inability to stand the judicial scrutiny and trying to weasel away from the tight spot they had pushed themselves in.
     
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  19. Known_Unknown

    Known_Unknown Devil's Advocate Stars and Ambassadors

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    Umm....how about the fact that Dawood expressly stated that the bomb blasts were a revenge for the masjid demolition? I never heard any BJP leader state the Kashmiri Brahmin expulsion as the raison d'être for the masjid demolition. Do you have any source that links the two?
     
  20. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    So killing 270 odd people which obviously included Muslims too was justified in your opinion ? No...masjid was razed because a temple was razed at the same spot centuries back. If a reaction is justified just because one expressly claimed that it was reaction, then consider it was expressly claimed that the mosque was brought down as reaction to the razing of the temple. Infact even now people claim so.

    And are you ok with the Gujarat riots which solely and spontaneously occurred because of Godhra carnage ?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  21. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

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    Seriously any judge could have refused them to call Expert witness u/s 45 Evidence Act. these clueless historians were really clueless to be called expert witness, hearsay evidences have no value. :rofl:
     

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