Avoiding Nuclear War in South Asia

[sayareakd]

Pakistani lost their Kargil war in 1999 but they didn't nuke your soldiers. This means you need a lot larger scale of war to force them, something like 1971 war.



No, you don't have the numbers and technical capability to take out neither Pakistan from world map, nor their second strike capability. The possible nuclear war scenario between you two is both sides shooting out all their nuclear weapon at the same time. And both sides socially, economically collapse.



The question is how the world to save the hundreds of millions refugees in Pakistan and India.



After being hit by 100 nuclear warheads, you can hardly call yourselves victor.

Kargil was and is our land on which Pakis lost badly, so much so that they didnt use their airforce, so use of nuke was out of qyestion. But just for records. Ten Prithvi missiles and two Agnis with nukes were ready during the war.
We have been operating nuclear reactor since long time. First nuke test was in 1971, long before I was born. You think we just kept sleeping till 1998.
We have enough nuke material to take care of two front war.
For Pakistan 30-40 nukes will take out their country from world map.

 

[Mad Indian]

Kargil was and is our land on which Pakis lost badly, so much so that they didnt use their airforce, so use of nuke was out of qyestion. But just for records. Ten Prithvi missiles and two Agnis with nukes were ready during the war.
We have been operating nuclear reactor since long time. First nuke test was in 1971, long before I was born. You think we just kept sleeping till 1998.
We have enough nuke material to take care of two front war.
For Pakistan 30-40 nukes will take out their country from world map.

Dude, a even 100 nukes won't wipe porkis off the map.

Think about it.

An average nuke has an yield of 30-50kn. The one dropped on Nagasaki killed off 100000. So a hundred nukes of 50kn will kill off 5*100000*100= 50000000(5 crore, and that's assuming that an average nuke dropped on pak does 5 times as many kills as the ones dropped on Nagasaki). But of course the reality is that pakis are still a largely rural society. Even if you use all our nukes, it won't result in destruction of porkis who are not 20crores.

And of course, even in a nuke exchange, barely 5-10 nukes of porkis can make it to India and we will lose 5 million max. big deal. Let's make sure that Pakistan is a waste land.

 

[no smoking]

Kargil was and is our land on which Pakis lost badly, so much so that they didnt use their airforce, so use of nuke was out of qyestion. But just for records. Ten Prithvi missiles and two Agnis with nukes were ready during the war.

Anyway, it proves that they have a quite high threshold for a nuclear war.

We have been operating nuclear reactor since long time. First nuke test was in 1971, long before I was born. You think we just kept sleeping till 1998.

That may only make your warhead better than their warhead.
But --
you didn't test your warhead in the simulated battlefield;
you army didn't get trained in nuclear war scenario;
you prepare your industry, traffic network, national food reserve around the nuclear war;
you never did any national anti-nuclear drill.

So, basically, you are vulnerable as much as Pakistanis.

We have enough nuke material to take care of two front war.

People generally believe a nuclear war would end in weeks if not days, which means your factory will be destroyed before they can refine all those materials and turn them into warhead.

For Pakistan 30-40 nukes will take out their country from world map.

In your dream only.

 

[no smoking]

And of course, even in a nuke exchange, barely 5-10 nukes of porkis can make it to India and we will lose 5 million max. big deal. Let's make sure that Pakistan is a waste land.

Only if you have a time travel machine and get the American BMD technology of 2020.

 

[Neo]

The level of jingoism and the misinformation about the world outside planet India is beyond rationale here. People actually believe that there can be winners in a nuclear exchange. Wrong! Two mini nukes were enough to destroy the mighty Japanese empire and Japan was way stronger than India us now.
India may fire more nukes, destroy major cities in Pakistan but wht about the chaos in India once Pakistani nukes rain over Delhi, Mumbai and Bengaluru? Hundreds of millions will be forced to relocate, surviving cities may not be able to handle the refugees. Food and water shortage, shelter and basic needs alone will cause a total chaos. Crops will suffer for decades and climate change will cripple the agriculture hence the backbone of your economy.
Keep dreaming about nuking Pakistan to stoneage, that will be the end of India as well.

 

[Mad Indian]

Only if you have a time travel machine and get the American BMD technology of 2020.

We are not talking about Russian missiles or american missiles here. We are talking about Chincom supplied /NoKo supplied mijjiles. So Indian BMD standards would do for now.

 

[A chauhan]

The level of jingoism and the misinformation about the world outside planet India is beyond rationale here. People actually believe that there can be winners in a nuclear exchange. Wrong! Two mini nukes were enough to destroy the mighty Japanese empire and Japan was way stronger than India us now.
India may fire more nukes, destroy major cities in Pakistan but wht about the chaos in India once Pakistani nukes rain over Delhi, Mumbai and Bengaluru? Hundreds of millions will be forced to relocate, surviving cities may not be able to handle the refugees. Food and water shortage, shelter and basic needs alone will cause a total chaos. Crops will suffer for decades and climate change will cripple the agriculture hence the backbone of your economy.

Keep dreaming about nuking Pakistan to stoneage, that will be the end of India as well.

If we can't end Pakistan then how could you end India ? If you think that India will start the nuclear attack then you are wrong, our attack will be retaliatory and annihilating, barring the chances of second strike.

BTW you didn't mention Hyderabad in your wish list? Muslim brotherhood ? Indian Muslims live mainly in the urban areas which you wish to nuke, Hindus live mostly in villages.

We'll be having a good BMD, that alone will deal with more than half of the Nukes fired by Pakistan (leaving the fact of accuracy of Pakistani missiles), and we need to heavily protect only those big cities that might be under Pakistani attack, we'll leave the cities unprotected which are not important to us, nuke them please !!

That would actually be a help for India, we'll be getting rid of of our excessive population Pakistan can't wipe all Indians that's a fact, the rest will create another India , a progressive and a better one, but can I say the same for Pakistan ? the rest of the Pakistanis will again run at Jihad, poverty, debt and 20 times more beggary than now etc.

Pakistan's total area is about the area of two Indian states Rajasthan and MP so we are not afraid of the terrorist blackmail. We would rather like dying than getting blackmailed by the terrorists.

 

[tarunraju]

The level of jingoism and the misinformation about the world outside planet India is beyond rationale here. People actually believe that there can be winners in a nuclear exchange. Wrong! Two mini nukes were enough to destroy the mighty Japanese empire and Japan was way stronger than India us now.
India may fire more nukes, destroy major cities in Pakistan but wht about the chaos in India once Pakistani nukes rain over Delhi, Mumbai and Bengaluru? Hundreds of millions will be forced to relocate, surviving cities may not be able to handle the refugees. Food and water shortage, shelter and basic needs alone will cause a total chaos. Crops will suffer for decades and climate change will cripple the agriculture hence the backbone of your economy.
Keep dreaming about nuking Pakistan to stoneage, that will be the end of India as well.

The combined populations of Mumbai, Delhi, and Bengaluru is still under 7% of India's population, so we can cope with a refugee crisis. Your country, however, will turn into Somalia, with people having nowhere to go.

You can't even stage a Syrian-kind of migration to the EU, because Iran and CAR/Caspian region are geographic barriers, between Pakistan and the EU, and are friendly to India. Chinese won't let you in. They won't set their Han-supremacist movement back 50 years by letting Pakis in. Arabs (Saudis, UAE, etc.) didn't let their own Arab brethren from Syria in, so far from letting Pakis in, they'll begin kicking out Pakis from their countries.

 

[roma]

The level of jingoism and the misinformation about the world outside planet India is beyond rationale here. People actually believe that there can be winners in a nuclear exchange. Wrong! Two mini nukes were enough to destroy the mighty Japanese empire and Japan was way stronger than India us now.
India may fire more nukes, destroy major cities in Pakistan but wht about the chaos in India once Pakistani nukes rain over Delhi, Mumbai and Bengaluru? Hundreds of millions will be forced to relocate, surviving cities may not be able to handle the refugees. Food and water shortage, shelter and basic needs alone will cause a total chaos. Crops will suffer for decades and climate change will cripple the agriculture hence the backbone of your economy.
Keep dreaming about nuking Pakistan to stoneage, that will be the end of India as well.

preferably, there should not be any further wars and the china pakistan economic corridor hopefully will help pakistan to develop and realise that to live peacefully is better than to find cause for war ....the nukes on both sides should also help forestall any ideas of large-scale wars too

so the competition , if any, should be economic and doctrinal i.e. philosophy of life and quality of life

i think that is better than war ....just as from time to time we do play cricket against each other ( with some exceptions when there is acrimony , indeed as at present ) so too we can learn to compete if we really wanted to in other areas as well eg economy etc etc as i've mentioned .....even better would be to stop trying to compete and instead each one live their own lives

in terms of quality of life Pakistan arguably has the better, with india having to help around 300 million to cross over from dire poverty to a better level, so in a sense it is pakistan who is actually better off. Why spoil that ? although you can if you keep insisting on "kashmir"

so the dichotomy of having nukes is that instead of being used for war, they might actually help to prevent the same .

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[sayareakd]

I think we should declare that any nuke attack on India will be resulted in equal nukes on both the neighbours without any discrimination. That way Pakistanis will be put to task by their new masters. Even old masters will be happy.

We will get deterrent in place. It is simple and effective.

 

[tarunraju]

preferably, there should not be any further wars and the china pakistan economic corridor hopefully will help pakistan to develop and realise that to live peacefully is better than to find cause for war ....the nukes on both sides should also help forestall any ideas of large-scale wars too

CPEC is bad for India, not so much because of the trade (or Pakistan's economic development), but because it vastly improves their troop mobilization, and increases troop deployment in PoK to protect it. Also, Pakistan will throw everything at the stake to defend PoK when it starts seeing big money coming from it. That's why India must use everything at its disposal to destabilize and stunt CPEC from taking off, even if that means war.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Dude, a even 100 nukes won't wipe porkis off the map.

Think about it.

An average nuke has an yield of 30-50kn. The one dropped on Nagasaki killed off 100000. So a hundred nukes of 50kn will kill off 5*100000*100= 50000000(5 crore, and that's assuming that an average nuke dropped on pak does 5 times as many kills as the ones dropped on Nagasaki). But of course the reality is that pakis are still a largely rural society. Even if you use all our nukes, it won't result in destruction of porkis who are not 20crores.

And of course, even in a nuke exchange, barely 5-10 nukes of porkis can make it to India and we will lose 5 million max. big deal. Let's make sure that Pakistan is a waste land.

Nuclear warfare doesn't work in this way that you keep on dropping Nuclear bombs for total destruction of enemy population. That would be called nuclear genocide.
Couple of even low yield but accurate nuclear bomb are enough to destroy a mega-city like Mumbai/Delhi.
All you have to do is hit critical city infrastructure like power, water or sewage. Rest is taken care bu mass Hysteria, diseases like Typhoid, cholera, jaundice, etc. and not to forget spreading of radio-active fallout by wind. You just have to destroy a city beyond immediate repair to demoralize enemy nation population and instigate fear in their mind.
Similarly you destroy enemy nations industrial and commerce base that enemy can't recover from the loss and if it does it will take decades it not centuries.
Yes with nukes it is easy to destroys big cities, industrial bases but very difficult to destroy villages.
Nukes are more of a terror weapons and are like a Pandora's box that can be opened only once. Once you use them it can't be undone and must be ready to face enemy's full scale retaliation.
MAD occurs in between parties of similar capabilities. In MAD both parties are afraid to go nuclear because of the sheer damage in case any one uses nukes.
In case of country like Pakistan it knows we have much more to loose hence it can resort to nuclear brinkmanship.

 

[LordOfTheUnderworlds]

India has no first use policy and India is not the madman of the region. So avoiding nuclear war is not India's duty. India's job is to prepare itself to manage the consequences of nuclear war.
All this nuclear talk has always been just scaremongering to deter India from taking any offensive action.

Or more correctly, it has been just excuse for incompetent and pussified Indians to avoid any hard-work and war preparation.

Giving such excuses to avoid real hard-work while sitting in cozy chairs and being busy earning money is not Indian security/political establishment's job. Their job is to be war ready and have plans for dealing with any kind of escalation and not be deterred by any threats.

Dude, a even 100 nukes won't wipe porkis off the map.

Think about it.

An average nuke has an yield of 30-50kn. The one dropped on Nagasaki killed off 100000. So a hundred nukes of 50kn will kill off 5*100000*100= 50000000(5 crore, and that's assuming that an average nuke dropped on pak does 5 times as many kills as the ones dropped on Nagasaki). But of course the reality is that pakis are still a largely rural society. Even if you use all our nukes, it won't result in destruction of porkis who are not 20crores.

And of course, even in a nuke exchange, barely 5-10 nukes of porkis can make it to India and we will lose 5 million max. big deal. Let's make sure that Pakistan is a waste land.

Pakistan is more urbanized than India. Maybe >50%

Only elite class makes Pakistan what it is, without elite class there is no Pakistani identity. And most of them live in few urban centers in a small strip of land dependent on a single major river system that originates in India.

 

[Mad Indian]

Couple of even low yield but accurate nuclear bomb are enough to destroy a mega-city like Mumbai/Delhi.

you are talking out of your ass and I gave a statistic based on fact. Here is the fact- the strength of the bomb dropped in Hiroshima Japan- 20kn . here is the fact- the no who died from it were 100000, inclusive of all the ones who died from radiation poisoning. Here is a fact- delhi has a population of 2 crores, that is 200 times the population of casualties in Hiroshima.

And here is your made up fiction- a low yeild device , 20kn I am presuming will wipe out 2crores in delhi, that is that it will have the same destruction as that of 200 Hiroshima bombs, even though the yield you are saying is the same. Yeah. Makes so much sense

Nuclear warfare doesn't work in this way that you keep on dropping Nuclear bombs for total destruction of enemy population. That would be called nuclear genocide.

What do you think Indian second strike is going to be like? Drop one or two strong words diplomatically as you want to deal with terrorist scum/attacks?

All you have to do is hit critical city infrastructure like power, water or sewage. Rest is taken care bu mass Hysteria, diseases like Typhoid, cholera, jaundice, etc. and not to forget spreading of radio-active fallout by wind

Yep. These things dint exist in Hiroshima and came to India only after 1945. Again, 100000 dying from Hiroshima bomb = fact. Millions dying in case of India facing a similiar nuke attack = your made up opinion/bs. But bs making is more fun than learning the facts. You go right ahead.

You just have to destroy a city beyond immediate repair to demoralize enemy nation population and instigate fear in their mind.

Yes, terror attacks don't do that already.

Similarly you destroy enemy nations industrial and commerce base that enemy can't recover from the loss and if it does it will take decades it not centuries.

Then how are both Hiroshima and Nagasaki thriving industrial centers today? Stop making bs for your arguments.

Nukes are more of a terror weapons and are like a Pandora's box that can be opened only once. Once you use them it can't be undone and must be ready to face enemy's full scale retaliation.

All weapons are like that.

Once you use them it can't be undone and must be ready to face enemy's full scale retaliation.
MAD occurs in between parties of similar capabilities.

For nincompoops, one or two nukes on us is a MAD. not that the term MAD as used by US refers to 1000s of nukes being used. No. For nincompoops, anything is MAD, even one or two nukes.

In case of country like Pakistan it knows we have much more to loose hence it can resort to nuclear brinkmanship.

In a fight with a dog, you have more to lose. Does not mean you will let it eat you now will you?

 

[Mad Indian]

Or more correctly, it has been just excuse for incompetent and pussified Indians to avoid any hard-work and war preparation

Please tell this again and again till it reaches the pussies here.

Pakistan is more urbanized than India. Maybe >50%

So? Still it is nowhere as industrialised as Japs were in 1945. I am telling you even 100 nukes won't be wlenough to glass porkis. Nukes are over rated for the destruction they can cause. We should be proliferating like crazy if we want to remove those scum from the earth.

 

[A chauhan]

BTW who holds the Nuke trigger in Pakistan ?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

BTW who holds the Nuke trigger in Pakistan ?

Thats a difficult question to answer. Last of what I read during war time command to tactical nukes will be given to corps or division command depending on the scenario. As deploying them in forward area will create a use them or loose them scenario.
For strategic nukes Pakistan has Strategic force command (Army, AF and Navy). Currently PA Strategic force command is the primary force with control of strategic nukes.
PN Strategic force command is coming up with second strike capability.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

you are talking out of your ass and I gave a statistic based on fact. Here is the fact- the strength of the bomb dropped in Hiroshima Japan- 20kn . here is the fact- the no who died from it were 100000, inclusive of all the ones who died from radiation poisoning. Here is a fact- delhi has a population of 2 crores, that is 200 times the population of casualties in Hiroshima.

And here is your made up fiction- a low yeild device , 20kn I am presuming will wipe out 2crores in delhi, that is that it will have the same destruction as that of 200 Hiroshima bombs, even though the yield you are saying is the same. Yeah. Makes so much sense[/QUOTE]
You need to be clear. I couldn't understand a thing you wanted to say.

You can yell as much as you want but the fact remains couple of well placed bombs are enough to destroy a city.

What do you think Indian second strike is going to be like? Drop one or two strong words diplomatically as you want to deal with terrorist scum/attacks?Hiroshima

Again going ballistic. Whats diplomacy got to do with second strike??? I really fail to see the connection.

Yep. These things dint exist in Hiroshima and came to India only after 1945. Again, 100000 dying from Hiroshima bomb = fact. Millions dying in case of India facing a similiar nuke attack = your made up opinion/bs. But bs making is more fun than learning the facts. You go right ahead.

Says a guy who has not done any research on this topic. I suggest you study some research papers from reputed journal regarding nuclear warfare between India and Pakistan.

Yes, terror attacks don't do that already.

No they don't. And if you feel demoralized I feel sorry for you.

Then how are both Hiroshima and Nagasaki thriving industrial centers today? Stop making bs for your arguments.

Find out how may years it took for rebuilding and not to forget complete submission as Japan as a client state of US. Kind of proves my point.

All weapons are like that.

No they are not. Even terrorist fail to install terror. I don't know about you but in Mumbai report to work the very next day after terrorist strike. That is why we rise every time after such attack. Can you say the same about nuclear attack.

For nincompoops, one or two nukes on us is a MAD. not that the term MAD as used by US refers to 1000s of nukes being used. No. For nincompoops, anything is MAD, even one or two nukes.

Actually as per defense establishments 25-50 nukes are enough against India. Have you got any idea about economic effects of loosing even a single mega-city. Instead of name calling try to research MAD with respect to India and Pakistan.

In a fight with a dog, you have more to lose.

That is why you don't fight with dog. Either you put the dog down or you ignore it but definitely not fight with it.

 

[Mad Indian]

You need to be clear. I couldn't understand a thing you wanted to say.

Your stupidity knows no bounds. The max Hiroshima bomb killed in Japan was 100000. If you think that sized bomb will be enough yo destroy Delhi which is 20 times as big then you are grade a moron who understand basic math.

 

[Screambowl]

BTW who holds the Nuke trigger in Pakistan ?

COAS ................................