Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Group

Discussion in 'China' started by tarunraju, Sep 24, 2014.

  1. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    Indian TV news reports that US, Australia, and Japan, are luring India into group of nations designed to meet each other's security needs, if attacked by China. PM Modi will be given a one-time offer to join this group, before it officially takes shape, when he visits Washington, later this week.

    Personally I think the idea is a metric-ton of bovine defecation, because:
    • The US is in no shape to support defensive military missions against China, with the trade-volumes between the two
    • The group appears to be Tony Abbott's bright idea, because he is unnerved by China's transgressions into waters south-east of it. Abbott is highly unpopular in Australia, and he wants to sign off his tenure with a big foreign-policy achievement.
    So it's more of a "hey that fat kid is bullying each of us, let's all stick together during recess."

    [​IMG]

    Developments go in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2014
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  3. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    .

    sure we need an alliance not only in the military but mutual co operation in Economical too if okay means we ready /to sign

    I recommend the alliance should conduct massive naval drills in the south China sea yearly twice to show our middle finger to Chinese


    and a good thread @tarunraju
     
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  4. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Let's pull things out of our behinds for a moment (thought experiment).

    America wants increased market access to India. America wants majority FDI in retail, >50% FDI in defence, and so on. So Washington rang Beijing to tell it "go intimate India, they'll come to us for help, we'll create a 'security group,' you'll cool down the LAC, and then when they're softened, we'll ask them to return the favor by pushing in the laws we want."

    With the kind of trade volume between the US and China, their being conflicting superpowers is an absurd notion.
     
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  5. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    the grouping is a necessity and it is good that aus had been its originator

    the group will benefit from the manpower and strategic position of vietnam

    although we know that it will be a challenge to get them in due to the not so distant
    animosity between them and the usa - hope it can be overcome in time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
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  6. rock127

    rock127 Maulana Rockullah Senior Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Don't hit them with logic.

    Last time quite a few Indian kings thought an alliance with the British would help them defeat their rivals. We all know how that turned out.

    This was very recently pointed out by, IIRC, @Razor.
     
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  8. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Alliances are usually formed against a perceived threat. USA and Russia were Allies in ww2.
    This alliance is a benefit for all nations.
    @tarunraju

    USA -china trade is debt based . Debt that USA cannot pay, a good way to
    Be free of this debt is war against china.
     
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  9. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Sir, what is wrong in more than 50% FDI?

    Those who wants to use India as their manufacturing hub, let them start their projects here in India.

    Indian govt can put strict environmental regulations.

    It will provide jobs to our people anyway. Let them take away their products back to their country.

    Nothing to do with Indian govt, apart from taxation.
     
  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Strategically, it is the need of the hour to dissuade China from its hegemonic aspirations.

    Standing still and embracing status quoism will only allow China to nibble away as we observe aghast.

    What China is doing is nothing out of their character. It is an old Chinese or Oriental game of 'Go'.

    The objective of the game—as the translation of its name implies—is to have surrounded a larger total area of the board with one's stones than the opponent by the end of the game, although this result typically involves many more intricacies than simply using surrounding areas directly.

    [​IMG]



    That is what the Chinese are up to and in the bargain, without actual war, nibbling away the lands of others.

    Trade and economy is fine, and so is territorial integrity.

    Therefore, the question that begs an answer is that should be stand and stare and be surrounded and thereby losing territory inch by inch, or should be find ways to ensure the rat like nibbling by china is halted?
     
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  11. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    India’s Soft Power Advantage | The Diplomat

    Deeply entrenched factors make India a uniquely attractive great-power partner.

    By Kadira Pethiyagoda
    September 17, 2014

     
  12. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Being an American let me point out to you guys that the idea that "trade volumes" will hinder American hostility is ridiculous. No matter how the power game and jockying continue, the only thing that will interrupt trade will be a major war. In case of a major war the lack of Chinese trade will be offset by a massive increase in the American military industrial complex. This same effect took America to super power status after world war II, do not underestimate it.

    Even if China was a nation inhabited only by angels, it would not deter American aggression. America does NOT tolerate even POTENTIAL rivals, or anything that may pose a threat to American strategic global hegemony. America and China are fated to be rivals, if you do not understand this, you simply do not understand America or its people, nationalism is a very powerful force in the world. Due to the traditional hostilities with Japan, Japan teaming up with America is a foregone conclusion. Any white nation will always team up with another white nation if it can help it, so Australia is in.

    Possibly swing players are nations like South Korea. Russia is also a swing nation, but historical animosity against the USA makes it more likely that Russia will grow closer and closer to China. This puts India is a very difficult situation. Does India stand side by side with its historical ally, an ally India owes many debts to? If so India will embrace BRICS enthusiastically and that will perhaps morph into a power block in other realms such as militarily. From this view India can see the side of anti colonialism and standing up to the west and its domination of people of color. Ironically this would lead to closer ties with Pakistan as ties with China improved.

    The alternative path is with the USA, here India will probably more directly benefit from military aid, technologies and possibly investment and trade. India will be able to ally with a fellow democracy and help maintain the current world order, adding to security and stability. Such a situation is also very advantageous to India and will give it the chance to do what it needs to do most, have a stable world environment in which to build up its own economy and infrastructure. This will lead India away from Russia over time, a time tested all weather ally.

    The third option is one India seems to have embraced, one of neutrality. While everyone claims this to be the best option where India enjoys benefits from both sides, I feel it is also accurate to say India enjoys NO benefits from either side as the aid to India from either side would be far greater if it was a strong ally.

    Which of these three paths leads to the best Indian future, one in which India is able to build into an economic super powerhouse while becoming the sole dominant force in south asia and the Indian ocean region? I think Indians political ambitions, the path it would take if it had unlimited power involve domination of south-asia + Indian ocean, after which I think India would hardly care who rules the rest of the world as long as it is not disturbed.
     
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  13. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    This is the grouping to deal with evil. Begin now and bynthe time Chinese become too aggressive, the group,is ready for joint effort.

    A few years before WWII, British created an alliance with US and France, later to be joined by the Russians to corner and defeat Germans.
     
  14. prohumanity

    prohumanity Regular Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Sylex..you raised some interesting points...YES...G-7 nations will try to do anything to keep western hegemony ...whether they will succeed this time is another issue. Control by military aggression is outdated as China, India ,Russia have powerful militaries and all have Nuclear weapons. To remind you of WW-2 , Japan was bombed with atomic bombs as Japan had no Nukes and had no choice but to accept defeat. In WW-3, if West tries to use Nukes on major nations and these nations immediately retaliate with Nukes, West is finished and its dream of hegemony bites dust. World has changed a lot.
    The other way to maintain hegemony is by creating rivalry and hatred between China and India ...just like they did for decades between India and Pakistan ..This is the old style of crooked western mind....divide and rule... So once they succeed in making China and India hate each other...they can sell very expensive weapons to one side and make a lot of money...they can weaken both Giants and thus, get the upper hand enabling hegemony to continue. The greatest danger to west's hegemony is..partnership and friendship between Russia,China and India....this can be death nail to western hegemony. Russia has high tech weaponry, China has a lot of cash and India has huge educated manpower in computers,electronics and space program. This trio of friendship contains 40% of worlds population, 25% of worlds economy and if combined, an invincible military force with all kinds of weapons including a cyber army of millions of computer nerds capable of blowing up the entire western banking and financial computer systems..bringing west to its knees. Trade routes (silk roads) between them with Russian oil/Gas flowing to south can boom the economies of China and India further. Lets see if west succeeds in this new ,last ditch "divide and conquer" game.
     
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  15. IBSA

    IBSA Regular Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    double post
     
  16. IBSA

    IBSA Regular Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    In my opinion India dont should to joint this alliance. The future of multipolar world is on the BRICS. If India and China antagonize each more, so the BRICS risks to implode. India and China must to solve their issues with bilateral talks. They are two millenar civilizations, so they have enough maturity for dont need foreign interference. If they to do this, none power will be capable to insure the BRICS.

    This proposed alliance isnt one against China, but an alliance of developed countries (US, Japan, Australia) to play two underdeveloped countries (India and China) against each other.
     
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  17. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    Few things to be remembered here...

    1) China s still occupying India's land

    2) It is China that illegally supplied the Nuclear and Missile technology to Pakistan for India's destruction

    3) Russia thinks that it has the right to milk India [read India as an ATM machine]

    Unless there is an amicable solution to the immediate problems with China and Pakistan it is evident that India will collaborate very closely with USA, Japan, Australia, Vietnam to encircle China...
     
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  18. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    What you said is correct. Before this alliance you mentioned, the west surreptitiously encouraged the rise of Hitler in the hope he would attack the USSR. For the shrewd tactician that Stalin was, he made sure the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact discouraged, or delayed Hitler's attack while giving him some time to consolidate his war effort.
     
  19. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    I don't think this is a divide and conquer scenario, in the sense that I feel the USA is seeking more of an ally to bandwagon with their side, rather than to turn India into the primary anti-China actor in their war to contain China. China does not perceive India as its main threat and it is unlikely ever to due to its concerns about Japan and the USA. Your mention of the India and Pakistan example is actually a wonderful example to illustrate my point. Look what the USA support for Pakistan did for them, it provided for a massive influx of money in a nation with an annual military budget of $6B the USA has provided them with over $40B in aid since 2003. Throughout most of its history Pakistan has managed to make a career out of exploiting USA support, money, technology and weapons. In the war of 1965 a nation 1/5th the size of India was able to amass a military with better equipment and in many cases more tanks and other military hardware than India. Without American support Pakistan would have been nothing in the long history of wars with India. The American style is to build up their allies, providing them with advanced weapons and funding, just look how well being allied to the USA has worked out for Japan, Germany, South Korea since WWII. They are all leading industrial nations, with massive economies and powerful militaries.

    Geo-politically China will always be wary of a very powerful India because they are direct neighbors, the USA is unlikely to be concerned about India until it is almost as strong as the united states and even then unlikely to be concerned unless India tries to expand out of its traditional role in the Indian Ocean. Your point about two giants fighting and weakening each other is interesting but I feel it applies more to the USA and China with the benefit to India than the China vs India model. Realistically China is the powerhouse on the block for now and perhaps decades to come, but India is the most powerful swing state, which ever side gains India is likely to dominate the planet. I feel personally India's views are more aligned with an American democratic model than the Chinese one, but this issue really isn't very important because India's best interests are in being the only power in the Indian ocean region. So I say India should sit back and enjoy gaining vast sums of money, investment, resources and technology from the USA, while offering to be pro-USA leaning but not directly involved with the future American-Sino cold war. Hell why not make the same deal with China, we don't care if you defeat the USA and rule the world as long as you stay out of our backyard, feel free to offer us a counter package to the USA's and stop propping up Pakistan or we'll get more directly involved against you.
     
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  20. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    we may all have various reasons why we are wary of that nation - not important why

    as long as we agree to do our assigned part of the alliance work and finance - that's god enough
    meanwhile i have posted an article below for further reasons why india should be a part of it


    nibble away is exactly what they are doing ....ref article ive posted below i


    we have already had enough of experience trying to solve problems without using force with them !

    they will only respect when you point a gun at them , a gun which is at least as good or
    preferable better than theirs - so this pact is a good idea .....question is how to get it going
    not whether it is necessary

    please read
    China entered Sikkim during Ladakh face-off - The Times of India

    unfortunately ccp-china is the kind of nation that wants to have every last square millimetre
    that is according to their claim !

    they couldn't for the past few decades take an attitude that between friends we can be a little giving
    India has done so with Pakistan

    but ccp is a different kettle of fish than india - every last millimetre and perhaps a bit more they want
    and that is no friend !

    Mark my words - all it will take is one soldier to be sufficiently provoked into going off on his own
    and firing the first shot .....and then we will know the true meaning of what mr eleven meant when
    he told them to prepare for war !
     
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  21. Sylex21

    Sylex21 Regular Member

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    Re: Australia, Japan, and US luring India into Anti-China Security Gro

    1. China isn't really occupying much Indian land. Aksai Chin is a "desert on top of a mountain", garbage land worthless to India and only useful to China because of the major route it leads into Tibet, why not just let them have it. When the British occupied India they basically ate away at every country bordering it absorbing parts. There is actually a pretty good argument for parts of Arunachal Pradesh being parts of Southern Tibet, and while I don't feel China has a historical claim on Tibet, the overall benefits to stability, cooperation and peace with China, combined with the near political impossibility of exchanging large patches of land in a modern era make it a very worthwhile endeavor to accept the status quo.

    2. Yes you are totally right on this, and for that India has a very solid case of revenge against China, further the 1962 invasion isn't justified by claiming "forward-policy" as the invasion was hugely disproportionate to the forward policy of Nehru. Arming Pakistan with nuclear weapons was a MASSIVE SIN against India as it lead to pretty much all terrorism directed against India under the safety of a nuclear umbrella. However India can live in the past or accept what has happened and attempt to make India stronger. Indians have an obligation to do what is best for India NOW, so while this should never be forgotten you can't ignore cooperation with China which could have massive economics benefits for India. In essence I think 400 MILLION new Indians having clean homes, food, economic security and jobs is the realized potential of working economically with China and outweighs the grudge of arming Pakistan with the nuke and allowing them to conduct terrorism for now. But India should retain the option to employ a little revenge back if the opportunity was to present itself, Tibetan liberation and independence for example.

    3. Very unfair analysis of Russia. Russia has been an absolutely amazing Indian supporter historically and India has gained massively from its alliance with the Russians. The Indian media tends to complain far to much when small cost overruns or delays occur in a Russian defense contract and yet India's own defense digitization programs run massive cost overruns and delays. The Russia defense industry is a very large part of their economy and India should do everything to promote it. It provides a very important balance to American power. The USA has been heavily criticized for supplying their allies with weapons to the point of dependency and cutting off spare parts and supplies at critical times and during wars. India has been moving more and more towards joint development with Russia along with making great strides in its own indiginization programs, so India seems right on track when it comes to defense cooperation with Russia.
     

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