Indian nuclear submarines

[1.44]

Prada,
if the requirement for the ATV was 190MW, how will it run with power that is less than half?

The power decline will result in limitations in it's operating capacity in it's speed for example.The reactor will have to function at peak capacity for most of the time.

 

[Payeng]

Analysts call the ATV a baby boomer. Nevertheless, it will carry the small range K-15 or the longer range Agni 3.

Information about the K-15 is classified, but DRDO released its land based cousin Shourya.

Some pictures,

The Shourya being a version of K-15 is being denied officially. But, analysts are not convinced.

You can expect the same to be the K-15 without the underwater booster. The K-15 will fly to an altitude of 5km with the underwater boosters and then the second stage kicks in.

Both, K-15 and Agni 3 are ballistic missiles.

As per news reports DRDO rejects the claim that shourya is based on the K-15 project. I even don't recollect them claiming the same for the sagarika project, the only evidence we have about the pontoon launchable K-15 project is through BR through this photo

This is more likely to be a submerged platform to launch Agni III class of missile more than a missile of lower range.

IMO this particular platform.............

is more a canister form to either launch land launchable missiles like that of Brahmos and the Shourya or hopefully the under water Sagarika, but I think this is not a part of the K-15 project or may be a smaller derivative of the project.

 

[Singh]

As per news reports DRDO rejects the claim that shourya is based on the K-15 project. I even don't recollect them claiming the same for the sagarika project, the only evidence we have about the pontoon launchable K-15 project is through BR through this photo

This is more likely to be a submerged platform to launch Agni III class of missile more than a missile of lower range.

IMO this particular platform.............

is more a canister form to either launch land launchable missiles like that of Brahmos and the Shourya or hopefully the under water Sagarika, but I think this is not a part of the K-15 project or may be a smaller derivative of the project.

Payeng have a look at the attached document.
K-15 was the project to develop Shourya/Sagarika Missile which can be launched from sub,land and, mobile launcher (and possibly ships too).

 

[p2prada]

Payeng

The Project name for Sagarika is the K-15. I would say there are 2 versions of Sagarika. One with an underwater booster for subs and the other without the underwater booster for the Silo based Shourya.

 

[Payeng]

Those missile tubes on ATV will have flexible option it can house either one Agni SL missile or three K-15 in same tube.

That means ATV can house mix of Agni and K-15, therefore it is mix bread of SSBN and SSGN, basically it is nuclear delivery system, made as per our requirement.

we have not followed other nations on making nuclear sub. we have device our own design.

BTW ATV-II & III will be bigger then ATV-I as they will house more missile.

may i just further add that

ATV-I will be used for primary test purpose (officially it is tech demonestrator), but this nuke sub will be used for nuclear delivery if the time so demand, as it will be station near it home harbour all the time, if time comes it will deliver our gift to China if need be arise.

What makes me curious is how three missiles can be integrated into a single tube. Anybody have got any example that had been tried before?

referring to that of the MCA story where the reports were about an aircraft of this look......

where actually our scientists were planning is some thing think like this......

I think their won't be any arrangement for three Sagarikas in a single tube, it should be either tubes of smaller diameter or a missile of that diameter.

I am not sure how an SSBN will fit into India's doctrine!

India keeps its nuke warheads in component form,and that too, is not delivery ready (Warheads and delivery vehicles are not kept in mated ready to launch configuration).

The purpose of SSBN is to have a credible deterrence of a 2nd strike.

If missiles carried in the SSBN are not nuke-ready to launch configuration, what is the purpose of having it?

As per the report that India's warheads are kept in dismantled form, that maybe true for any other platform for nuke delivery other than a submarine, If you are planning to send a submarine to the blue waters you have to either put all the weapons in fire ready mode or send it without one, IMO it is not possible to integrate a warhead once you are at sea in a submarine and especially for a VLS, maybe ATV's would be in direct command of Nuclear Command Authority and it would be fitted with nukes only when it is send outside the harbour, or the Nuclear Command Authority may have special power to keep its assets in Operation Ready (OR) mode.

Don't know why suddenly talks about the power of the reactor. It is a 190MW reactor from the very outset. If it did not generate that kind of power it would have been called a failure and the ATV project would have been seriously delayed. The Navy would not have accepted an grossly underpowered reactor.

The power decline will result in limitations in it's operating capacity in it's speed for example.The reactor will have to function at peak capacity for most of the time.

Well who knows this are all classified information, all we are speculating are just speculations, going back India claimed that the INS Chakra was an old Victor I class, but latter it was discovered that it was a new Charlie class Sub. so we may have more information once it is released or even after that, now whats the point to cherish is that we are having a naval reactor which may power future Indian warships and Subs.

 

[Singh]

What makes me curious is how three missiles can be integrated into a single tube. Anybody have got any example that had been tried before?

I think their won't be any arrangement for three Sagarikas in a single tube, it should be either tubes of smaller diameter or a missile of that diameter.

Please go through the attached pdf doc here.
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/36297-post44.html

As per the report that India's warheads are kept in dismantled form, that maybe true for any other platform for nuke delivery other than a submarine, If you are planning to send a submarine to the blue waters you have to either put all the weapons in fire ready mode or send it without one, IMO it is not possible to integrate a warhead once you are at sea in a submarine and especially for a VLS, maybe ATV's would be in direct command of Nuclear Command Authority and it would be fitted with nukes only when it is send outside the harbour, or the Nuclear Command Authority may have special power to keep its assets in Operation Ready (OR) mode.

ATV when on patrol will definitely carry hot weapons.

Well who knows this are all classified information, all we are speculating are just speculations, going back India claimed that the INS Chakra was an old Victor I class, but latter it was discovered that it was a new Charlie class Sub. so we may have more information once it is released or even after that, now whats the point to cherish is that we are having a naval reactor which may power future Indian warships and Subs.

Getting a nuclear reactor is one thing and building nuclear powered warships and subs entirely another matter.
For eg. Neither UK nor China nor Russia field nuclear powered warships even though they have the knowhow of building miniaturized nuclear reactors. French Charles de Gaulle Nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier is in the docks most of the times for repair and their future AC will be conventionally powered.
Chinese nuclear subs are dodgy and the Russian nuclear subs too don't have a spectacular record either.

 

[Payeng]

Payeng

The Project name for Sagarika is the K-15. I would say there are 2 versions of Sagarika. One with an underwater booster for subs and the other without the underwater booster for the Silo based Shourya.

You may be right p2prada both Sagarika and Shourya might be the part of the same project. But regarding the name of the project, there is a confusion while BR had quoted this pontoon

is a part of the K15 project the link provided by Singhji says Shaurya and Sagarika are the part of the K15 projects. Maybe even the guys at BR dont have the accurate information or just they dont want to report.

One interseting article posted by Shiv Aroor in this blogsite says....

The LGM-30 Minuteman III ICBM of the USA, a three-stage rocket, is nearly 60 feet tall but only 65 inches thick. It has a range of over 6000 miles. On their biggest nuclear sub, the Ohio class SSBN also the Americans have been able to deploy their Trident-II D-5 SLBM which had to be limited to only 44 feet height. And yet it is 74 inch wide. The Trident is still nearly 58.5 tons in weight whereas the Minutemen is only 32.1 tons. Yet the Trident has a range of only 4600 miles. This shows how difficult it is to design a short ICBM for a submarine even for those nations which have vast experience in this field.

Although this is an old article, it is an interesting one. here is the link.

The ATV Unbound Part III: The SL-Missile Question

 

[Payeng]

Please go through the attached pdf doc here.
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/36297-post44.html

I have replied yours in the last reply Singhji.

Getting a nuclear reactor is one thing and building nuclear powered warships and subs entirely another matter.
For eg. Neither UK nor China nor Russia field nuclear powered warships even though they have the knowhow of building miniaturized nuclear reactors. French Charles de Gaulle Nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier is in the docks most of the times for repair and their future AC will be conventionally powered.
Chinese nuclear subs are dodgy and the Russian nuclear subs too don't have a spectacular record either.

Yes Singhji both are different but now we have alteast the option with us and that's something I enjoy as I enjoyed the day we had Pokhoran II.

 

[John]

true US is the only country to have perfected the nuke powered ships and subs technology. ATV will however make sure our learning curve goes up as well. Its long testing and sea trail phase including weapons trails will make sure our know-how increases. Sagarika is gr8, they say it will use IRNSS for guidance as well, which means the gps accuracy that IRNSS will field will be better than 5 m. we have made a lot of progress in satellites we are now the 4th country to have ability to have satellites below 1 m resolution for mapping , i am sure the our gps network will have better accuracy than 5 m or even 1m and i simply dont buy the 10 m crap they keep saying. All our missiles and systems we develop are always more advanced than what we state in public.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

We have made a lot of progress in satellites we are now the 4th country to have ability to have satellites below 1 m resolution for mapping

Which are the top three countries?
Can you post some info on IRNSS.
Thank You in advance.

 

[Payeng]

Which are the top three countries?
Can you post some info on IRNSS.
Thank You in advance.

As the information I have IRNSS is stated to have resolution of 10 m/20 m, here is a presentation that I have also posted in some other thread

its a presentation by ISRO.
View attachment 701

@ John:

Sagarika is gr8, they say it will use IRNSS for guidance as well

IMO Ballistic missile are basically programmed to work without any satellite guidance, supposing that a navigation satellite may be destroyed during a war or the enemy can divert the course by hacking it, but at the same time using satellite inputs cannot be negate either.

 

[Singh]

Payeng please post a link to the thread where you have posted the presentation, we can carry forward the discussion related to IRNSS there.

 

[Payeng]

Payeng please post a link to the thread where you have posted the presentation, we can carry forward the discussion related to IRNSS there.

This is the link: http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/military-aviation-air-forces/2596-mrca-news-discussions-20.html#post35206

but this thread has no relation with IRNSS, please provide a dedicated thread for this purpose.

 

[John]

Israel, Russia, US and India have 1m resolution ability. Also the only countries with ABM abilities.

 

[p2prada]

Payeng

The pic of the Canister you posted is that of Agni 3 SL version. The K-15 project could be related to the entire gamut of our underwater ballistic missile capabilities.

This picture will make things more clear.

BR refers to Agni 3SL as K-15 while Hindu refers to the K-15 as the Shourya/Sagarika.

The Hindu : Front Page : Shourya test-fired successfully

Just as the K-15 (Sagarika) missile could rise from the water and knife into the air, Shourya could lift off from a silo on the ground and pierce the sky.

 

[Payeng]

Payeng

The pic of the Canister you posted is that of Agni 3 SL version. The K-15 project could be related to the entire gamut of our underwater ballistic missile capabilities.


BR refers to Agni 3SL as K-15 while Hindu refers to the K-15 as the Shourya/Sagarika.

The Hindu : Front Page : Shourya test-fired successfully

Quiet possilbe p2prada maybe the entire gamut of underwater BM are under the project K-15.

 

[p2prada]

As for 3 missiles in 1 tube, I think the 3 Sagarikas will be placed side by side since it is less than 1m in diameter(0.74m) while the Pontoon is a little more than 2m in diameter. Both Agni and Sagarika may use the same pontoon, which will have more advantages.

Something like this,

 

[Payeng]

Agni III SL should if mated with MIRV with 3 warhead should prove to be more advantageous plus the range, moreover I have doubt with such arrangement as if once water entire into the VLS tube I won't validify an possible next launch, otherwise the design is as nice as independent small diameter launch tubes.

 

[Yusuf]

Exactly my thoughts. Three in one looks like three mini tubes in one.
I'm not sure about it.

 

[p2prada]

Agni III SL should if mated with MIRV with 3 warhead should prove to be more advantageous plus the range, moreover I have doubt with such arrangement as if once water entire into the VLS tube I won't validify an possible next launch, otherwise the design is as nice as independent small diameter launch tubes.

There is a possibility that the Sagarika may have individual canisters.

Note the launch containers in the red circle.