Indian nuclear submarines

scatterStorm

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I THINK TYPHOON IS VERY BIG SUB......

AS COLD WAR ERA.. AT THAT TIME ..

like a GIANT
Back in Cold war era, Russians designed everything big and bulkier, even warplanes that could glide on water at Mach 1. It was high time, for Russians.

Typhoon Class sub was designed for very long endurance and range, possibly laying low in arctic for a stretch of 6 months or more and when the need comes, capable to deliver enough warheads to cripple entire USA. That's what one sub could do, now imagine 6 of them. But maintenance was not trivial and very costly ... many accidents happened too.

It was so big that it had a freaking swimming pool inside of it. It was even an antagonist is some of tom Clancy's novel ... especially "The Hunt for Red October".
 

scatterStorm

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I wonder why it needs to be double hauled? It would have double the launch tube then Arihant, and that explains its larger size. But then again its powered by a single reactor. Why do one need a double hull for that? Typhoon class had two reactors and that explains its double hull structure, but I can't understand double hull in Aridaman.
Double-hulled subs have advantages over their single-hulled counterparts:

1. Survivability - Multiple direct torpedo hits, depending on the sub's size, are required to sink it.

2. Silence - With the latest noise nullifying technology available, double-hulled subs can emit less noise.

3. Strength and increased crush depth - With a double-hulled sub built of HY-100+ grade steel-alloy and/or titanium, it can withstand tremendous pressure at depths greater than 500 meters (1640 feet), in some cases up to 1200 meters (4000 feet).

4.Buoyancy - A double hulled sub floats on the surface like a cruise ship, whereas a single-hulled sub waddles around like flotsam.

Disadvantages:

1. Bulkier sub, needs more energy to displace water around it, hence slow underwater.

2. High on maintenance and in some cases very non-trivial.

3. If nuclear reactor is inside of them, than it's quite difficult to refuel both of them, as enhanced radioactivity while maintenance and refueling is considered deadly. Russians have lost few of there staff on the typhoon class sub.

Fun fact: US navy haven't had any major mishap since 1960s in there submarine command, that's a record of it's own!
 

Chinmoy

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Double-hulled subs have advantages over their single-hulled counterparts:

1. Survivability - Multiple direct torpedo hits, depending on the sub's size, are required to sink it.

2. Silence - With the latest noise nullifying technology available, double-hulled subs can emit less noise.

3. Strength and increased crush depth - With a double-hulled sub built of HY-100+ grade steel-alloy and/or titanium, it can withstand tremendous pressure at depths greater than 500 meters (1640 feet), in some cases up to 1200 meters (4000 feet).

4.Buoyancy - A double hulled sub floats on the surface like a cruise ship, whereas a single-hulled sub waddles around like flotsam.

Disadvantages:

1. Bulkier sub, needs more energy to displace water around it, hence slow underwater.

2. High on maintenance and in some cases very non-trivial.

3. If nuclear reactor is inside of them, than it's quite difficult to refuel both of them, as enhanced radioactivity while maintenance and refueling is considered deadly. Russians have lost few of there staff on the typhoon class sub.

Fun fact: US navy haven't had any major mishap since 1960s in there submarine command, that's a record of it's own!
Well.... by double hull I didnt mean two concentric circle type hull. What I meant is short of joining two hulls together side by side, just like Typhoon class.
 

indiatester

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@sayareakd So we have been testing K-4 from INS Arhiant since March 2016 ...:cruisin2:

c. The K-4 was reportedly tested twice in March 2016. The first test was on March 7, and the second on March 31. The March 31 test was the first conducted from the INS Arihant ballistic missile submarine (SSBN).
Was there any NOTAM that can confirm this speculation?
 

sayareakd

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Was there any NOTAM that can confirm this speculation?
12-14 ejection tests have been taken place from ATV, few of them K4 ejection tests.

India has long plans for Arihant. Once otherss comes online. This will be used as test bed as lot of data has been generated by Arihant. BTW Arihant has surpassed all expectations of Indian navy. DRDO knew it all along. All the hard work and years of delay paid off.

Last but not least. IN appreciate what is locally developed, unlike IA. Saying goes, if you make something good for navy, IN will find you and get it. While if you make same for IA, keep knocking at IA door, you will become old.
 

scatterStorm

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Well.... by double hull I didnt mean two concentric circle type hull. What I meant is short of joining two hulls together side by side, just like Typhoon class.
One word ... "Compartmentalization", since Typhoon carried two nuclear reactors cores the structure was by design side hulled, so if one reactor core malfunctioned or some mishap occurred, the crew in 1st hull could be safely transferred to 2nd hull while the former being air locked.

This also meant that the entire sub could sustain damage to one hull, but return back to home base using another hull with a functioning nuclear reactor.
 

sayareakd

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Those are advance stuff, both Russia and US has over 50 years of experience in this field, plus they are unlike our country is developed and huge resources to back it.

Lets get some experience in this then, we will start doing wonders.
 

captscooby81

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I don t think any navy in the world will build Typhoon class type huge submarines any more ...with the advancement in ICBMs they don t need to carry plenty of SLBMs like those days in Cold war .. And i don t think india will ever even dream of building one of Typhoon size we don t have the infrastructure to build such big ones ...The current Arihant class and slightly bigger one close to or little smaller than Borei class will do good for us ..

Those are advance stuff, both Russia and US has over 50 years of experience in this field, plus they are unlike our country is developed and huge resources to back it.

Lets get some experience in this then, we will start doing wonders.
 

sayareakd

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I don t think any navy in the world will build Typhoon class type huge submarines any more ...with the advancement in ICBMs they don t need to carry plenty of SLBMs like those days in Cold war .. And i don t think india will ever even dream of building one of Typhoon size we don t have the infrastructure to build such big ones ...The current Arihant class and slightly bigger one close to or little smaller than Borei class will do good for us ..
i

I wont mind building one........................ it is engineering challenge for us, just like ATV was.
 

sayareakd

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I don t think any navy in the world will build Typhoon class type huge submarines any more ...with the advancement in ICBMs they don t need to carry plenty of SLBMs like those days in Cold war .. And i don t think india will ever even dream of building one of Typhoon size we don t have the infrastructure to build such big ones ...The current Arihant class and slightly bigger one close to or little smaller than Borei class will do good for us ..
i

I wont mind building one........................ it is engineering challenge for us, just like ATV was.
 

lcafanboy

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Blast From the Past : INS Arihant won’t end the N-submarine debate. It’s just started.
Published June 14, 2017 SOURCE: OUTLOOK INDIA


The making of a nuclear reactor to power a submarine started under Raja Ramanna in the late ’70s. But the project to build the nuclear submarine in parallel with dry-running the reactor at Kalpakkam began as the Advanced Technology Vehicle programme in the mid-’80s. Until then, it was not at all clear whether India’s first nuclear submarine would be a missile-firing one and, least of all, whether nuclear-tipped missiles were on the horizon. The order from Rajiv Gandhi to weaponise the 1974 nuclear device still lay ahead. But every strategist knew that a nuclear submarine of any kind was the final arbiter of power. Ramanna inducted Vice Admiral M.K. Roy, an aviator admiral and an old college buddy of his, to start the now famous Advanced Technology (ATV) programme to build a nuclear submarine. Again, rumour has it that the then navy chief, the much-admired Admiral Ronnie Pereira, felt that nuclear submarines were premature—that we should learn to walk before running. So, instead of the navy, the project took off under the DRDO and got off to a magnificent financial start as all their projects do. With an immense amount of money—not always accounted for under a visible public head—and with the ‘secret classification’, the project had complete autonomy. Later on, this secretiveness may have been the cause of the huge time overrun—as Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat accused in 1998, only to lose his post in the scandalous manner of his sacking. The technical heart of this undoubtedly massive achievement was laid with the German HDW project. The overseas part of the project included three big ideas. One team representing Mazagon Dock would learn how to actually construct the body of the submarine—once it had been designed—and to commercially order the 21,000 parts that went into it. Another would oversee the building in Germany, to learn overseeing as well as to form the backbone of the construction team in the years to come. The third group would learn how to design submarines from ikl Lubeck, the German group that quickly recovered the war-time submarine building technology of the Germans. The submarine project, meanwhile, ran into heavy weather with the Deutschmark escalating from four rupees to fifteen. Naval headquarters lost its strategic vision and simply allowed the Mazagon Dock facilities to die. Grade A welders emigrated to Dubai, engineers retired, and eventually all that was left were designers and the knowledge passed on to industry, particularly dynamic companies like Larsen & Toubro, which actually built the hull of INS Arihant. Some of the young naval commanders of the overseeing team eventually became flag officers in charge of putting together the hull sections built by L&T in the Visakhapatnam Yard (incidentally a yard that was also designed by the same officers). The naval hierarchy was overjoyed that a nuclear submarine was being built—less happy that it was a missile-firing one. Like navies the world over, it knew only its maritime strategy well, but ignored its nuclear strategy. Let it be said also that like all navies, it desperately needed N-subs, while the nation needed a missile-firing one. There is no acrimony here actually; because eventually nuclear subs earn their keep every day of the year. Ballistic missile submarines save nations on that one fateful day, when the enemy’s political leaders look at our SLBMS and stay their hand on the button. Living in a nuclearised neighbourhood, India, unlike all other nuclear submarine-armed countries, built a missile-firing submarine first, and will build a killer submarine later. Unusual, but not erroneous. What is the strategic significance of this submarine? India’s nuclear doctrine is a no-first-use (NFU) doctrine. This is not so much a strategic choice, but a cultural one. It actually bridges the gap between India’s nuclear tests at Pokhran in 1998, and the Indian government’s long-held declaratory position against nuclear weapons, nuclear tests, the arms race and a nuclear winter. India, the government feels, has been compelled to go nuclear. But it seeks an ethical and moralistic path through the deterrence jungle. One way is to confine itself to an unshakable second strike offered only by ballistic missile submarines. So why didn’t it try getting there earlier? Because like all major strategic decisions in South Asia, certainly in India, the politician understands nothing, the bureaucracy puts its clumsy foot in frequently, and the military—still out of the nuclear decision-making process—is sulking. For the few genuine nuclear strategists in India, there is enough literature and mathematics to show that it will not be the cheapest from the point of view of funding—but it will be the cheapest surviving second strike arsenal, after a first strike. So when can India hope to have this credible deterrence? The Arihant will probably go to sea operationally in early 2012. Submarines of the Arihant class can be commissioned only at intervals of 30 months, although two years is what is being claimed. So the currently sanctioned force of three will be operational by 2017. Long before that, the K-X—the successor to the 700-km K-15 missile, with a range of 3,000 km—will be ready. This force, with either type of missile, will be adequate for an anti-Pakistan second strike. Against China, the submarine will have to be moved closer to the targets and that will involve tactical and diplomatic challenges. These challenges are recognised by the navy and referred to as ‘battle space management’ problems. The Soviet navy had similar battle space management problems arising due to different reasons, but built their entire navy to win just that one battle. The Chinese have followed this catastrophic example by putting their new SLBMS into a cave. Will the Indians blindly follow? That depends on who will steer India clear of that mess, or the other quagmires still ahead of us—like ‘separating ownership from control’ of nuclear weapons in a submarine already on patrol. These problems bring us to the calamitous news that India does not have a ‘nuclear staff’. It has a strategic force commander (SFC) with his own strong staff, but the PM, the NSA, and the chairman COSC have no nuclear staff. This is because New Delhi is one of the few capitals of the world where turf battles don’t just end in bloodshed but in the annihilation of an entire group—the military, the only people with operational staff knowledge, annihilated by the victors, the N-physicists, bureaucrats, intelligence-wallahs and DRDO scientists. The Arihant has a diameter of about 10 metres. Submarine diameters are the key dimension. The US, which has the best rocket technology, is able to put its 8,000-mile ICBM within a 12.8 metre hull. The Russians were unable to confine an ICBM within a 12-metre hull and so their missile tubes protruded two metres outside the pressure hull. The future of India’s nuclear submarine project is entirely in the hands of the rocket scientists. Even if they get 5,000-km (3,000-mile) missiles inside a 10-metre hull, it would be an ‘adequate’ success. In terms of diving depth, submarines built in India are not inferior to the average submarines being built abroad. So although the Arihant has captured the imagination of India as a missile-firing submarine, professionals everywhere in the world will want to know what India’s industrial achievements are in this project. Little noticed may be the fact that the Arihant will have an entirely Indian-designed sonar. Will the Chinese Jin class also have a Chinese sonar, or a reconstituted French one? Since India began building the ATV, submarine reactor design has leapfrogged. The British Astute class and the upgraded Los Angeles will all carry lifetime reactors, unlike the Arihant’s 10-year lifecycle power pack. The media has enquired whether the Arihant will qualify India for the Security Council. A nuclear navy and an slbm second strike force will undoubtedly take us there, but we aren’t there yet. For a start, we now need to declassify the nuclear submarine project and either build a bigger yard to reduce the interval between boats or build on the west coast too. An slbm force can’t be less than six. Killer submarines cannot number less than eight for a country of India’s size. To build 14 subs from 2010 onwards at the current rate of accretion would take till 2038, by which time Arihant would be due for pension. This isn’t the path to the Council. The government needs to write a white paper on India’s Nuclear Submarine Force, deploying for it a panel of strategists, industrialists and nuclear engineers, preferably with bipartisan political support. A number of issues need to be addressed, including the indigenisation of high-quality steel, advanced reactors, financial support, management structure, diplomatic cover for overseas deployment, the navy’s hrd and safety issues in Indian and foreign ports. Only the professionals remember that the outstanding achievement of the US navy’s submarine fleet came from path- breaking management of the N-reactor, submarine construction and the missile programme. The heads of these programmes went on to become international figures, having pioneered many techniques used today in industrial management. Our expat community is being hired worldwide for their competence. So we surely don’t lack talent. Why can’t we hire the best Indians to manage a national project?

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/blast-from-the-past...ubmarine-debate-its-just-started/#more-137928 .
 

lcafanboy

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ARIHAT STIRS UP THE OCEAN
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 14, 2017 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS




India’s first nuclear powered submarine will allow it a credible second strike option and keep out adventurists from its waters
India’s quest for strategic parity with the leading nuclear powers began as early as the 1950s. After decades of development, the 367 ft – as long as 10 buses parked end to end – Arihant was finally launched in October 2016. It is a measure of how jealously India guards its strategic submarine that when the jet black beauty sailed out of the naval dockyard in Visakhapatnam, the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force deployed their MiG-29K and Su-30 MKI combat jets around the harbour while the Poseidon P-8I maritime surveillance and attack aircraft from the nearby naval base at Arakkonam sanitised the area for any hostile underwater activity. Further strategic warships from the Eastern Command provided protective cover.
The excitement in India’s defence establishment is understandable. Like the BrahMos, the Arihant is a rare example of a successful strategic weapon made from scratch within the country. The 6,000 tonne submarine will take India to an elite league. According to Richard Sharpe of Jane's Fighting Ships, a nuclear submarine will give India a "colossal advantage" over its neighbours. “Facing a nuclear submarine is a nightmare; it has unlimited endurance and mobility and there's no place for a surface ship to hide,” he writes.

Until now India has blissfully carried on without a credible second strike option. This means if China – or for that matter any other country – launches a surprise first strike and decapitates the country’s land based nuclear missiles and its nuclear armed aircraft, there’s very little India can do except throw in the towel.
Having an SSBN changes the equation. It guarantees a nuclear first strike will not destroy India’s ability to strike back. Lurking at the bottom of the oceans and constantly moving, even a handful of SSBNs can sow doubt in the enemy’s mind that some of India’s sea-launched strategic missiles will be launched in retaliation. The planned fleet of five Arihant class SSBNs will thus complete India’s strategic triad, giving the country’s military the second strike option.
The first Arihant class submarine will carry 12 K-15 ballistic nuclear missiles that can be launched even under ice caps. Tested in 2008, the K-15 will be armed with a nuclear warhead that can be targeted at a distance of 750 km. The low range means the sub will have to venture close to enemy waters before launch. However, a 3,500 km range missile is already in development.
The approval of the construction of an SSBN dates back to 1970, but as is usual with Indian defence projects, nothing came off it. The project was revived in 1985 and in 1989 DRDO sought design assistance from former engineers and defence workers of the former Soviet Union. Several Russian naval engineers have been in India since 1991.

While Russian designers assisted in building the vessel, which is based on the Akula class hunter killer submarine, its nuclear-powered 80MW pressurised water reactor was developed by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre.

The miniature reactor was “designed, fabricated and executed in India” by Indian industries and under the direction of Indian scientists, then chairman of India’s Atomic Energy Commission, Dr Anil Kakodkar, told the media in 2009.
The crew of Arihant is being trained on a brand new 12,000 tonne Akula-II Class submarine. Leased from Russia for 10 years in 2011 named INS Chakra.
In the 1971 India-Pakistan war, as the Indian Army was thundering down the road to Lahore, the US and British fleets made a threatening pincer against India. While the US Seventh Fleet from Southeast Asia sailed towards Calcutta, a British flotilla from Madagascar steamed towards western India. The Indian Air Force was on alert after receiving intelligence that American warplanes might attack the Indian Army’s communications in the west. However, the Soviet Pacific Fleet sailed into the Indian Ocean and threw a cordon around India, forcing the American and British warships to retreat.
Once a fleet of Arihant boomers start patrolling the waters around India, India can ensure no foreign navy will threaten it again. (Adapted)
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/06/arihat-stirs-up-ocean.html
 

sayareakd

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Sirr, what is the status of indigenous nuclear attack SSN submarine??
SSN is navy's asset, while SSBN is national asset. After National assets are put in place, we will do Navy asset, BTW once the ATV will empty its package, it could also act as SSN, as it has respectable 24 knots in water and its silent, it could reach fastest speed in few seconds.
 
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Kalki_2018

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Where did you get the figure of 50 knots? The top speed was 24 knots for the A class.
 

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