Astra BVRAAM

BON PLAN

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I wonder then, what makes METEOR so reliable? Which aircraft it did brought down? I think by going through that logic, only US and Russian AAM are reliable one left. Good thinking Monsieur.... :yo:
Except AMRAAM, no modern AAM were fired these last 10 years !
And success of AMRAAM is very mitigated.

What makes Meteor so reliable (and ASTRA less) ? The skill and experience of the european team. All that lacks for the moment to the indian team.

Bonne journée mon ami.
 

BON PLAN

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meteor is the best missile in the world but what is the cost of Astra & meteor ?? Astra is 15 to 20 times cheaper than Meteor ..............

in Most of the battle scenario 80Km Range would be Good Enough .


Astra is our First BVR missile , range of Next Missiles will be Higher ....................

India has scram-jet & Ramjet Engine technologies .
You are 100% right.

And it's with failures that developpment teams learn the more.
 

BON PLAN

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Astra is still in development & testing Phase ...............................Final Product will be reliable .
I hope so.

I'm just expecting (for you) that it will take less time than with Tejas.
 

airtel

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The maximum range of Astra is 110 km in head-on chase and 20 km in tail chase.

The missile could be launched from different altitudes - it can cover 110 km when launched from an altitude of 15 km, 44 km when fired from an altitude of eight km and 21 km when the altitude is sea level.

The missile can reportedly undertake 40 g turns close to sea level, when attacking a maneuvering target. It will have an active homing range of 25 km.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/educat...cessfully-test-fired-some-facts/1/439434.html

I hope so.

I'm just expecting (for you) that it will take less time than with Tejas.
ASTRA project is completed within 10 years ............and these are the Final phase of development & tests .
 

Chinmoy

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Except AMRAAM, no modern AAM were fired these last 10 years !
And success of AMRAAM is very mitigated.

What makes Meteor so reliable (and ASTRA less) ? The skill and experience of the european team. All that lacks for the moment to the indian team.

Bonne journée mon ami.
If by the underlined part, you are trying to crack a joke, then you are successful.... I do have high regards for METEOR and also for all the development authorities in world who does work on concept and design rather then stealing them.
But simply saying that it has been designed by more experienced and skilled force doesn't by default make a system reliable. Its the actual tests and implementations which make a system reliable one. METEOR is not reliable because it has been made by skilled and experience designers, its reliable because it has undergone extensive trials.

J'espère que vous comprenez ce que je veux dire :yo:
 

BON PLAN

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If by the underlined part, you are trying to crack a joke, then you are successful.... I do have high regards for METEOR and also for all the development authorities in world who does work on concept and design rather then stealing them.
But simply saying that it has been designed by more experienced and skilled force doesn't by default make a system reliable. Its the actual tests and implementations which make a system reliable one. METEOR is not reliable because it has been made by skilled and experience designers, its reliable because it has undergone extensive trials.

J'espère que vous comprenez ce que je veux dire :yo:
I don't agree with you.

The best test benchs and trials of the world don't make a product good. They only give you the information about how far your product is efficient or not.
A shit product, even intensively tested, remain a shit.

MDBA team can rely on dozen and dozen years of practice, tools and projects.

Indian teams in this special area don't have yet this kind of experience. And experience can't be purchased or learned.

It's the same problem with Kaveri, Tejas, Arjun.... Your learning curve is not at a end.

It's not a question of intelligence, because you are a brillant people. You just need time.

Je vous souhaite une excellente journée :)
 

airtel

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I don't agree with you.

The best test benchs and trials of the world don't make a product good. They only give you the information about how far your product is efficient or not.
A shit product, even intensively tested, remain a shit.

MDBA team can rely on dozen and dozen years of practice, tools and projects.

Indian teams in this special area don't have yet this kind of experience. And experience can't be purchased or learned.

It's the same problem with Kaveri, Tejas, Arjun.... Your learning curve is not at a end.

It's not a question of intelligence, because you are a brillant people. You just need time.

Je vous souhaite une excellente journée :)

You are still stuck in tejas , arjun & kaveri ....................but You will never appreciate successful Indian Projects like Ins Arihant , Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) ,Pinaka , all the destroyers , frigate & corvette etc ............which were developed by inexperienced Indians .
LCH.jpg
 
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Flame Thrower

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Except AMRAAM, no modern AAM were fired these last 10 years !
And success of AMRAAM is very mitigated.

What makes Meteor so reliable (and ASTRA less) ? The skill and experience of the european team. All that lacks for the moment to the indian team.

Bonne journée mon ami.
We are making an AAM for the first time but that really doesn't mean that Aastra is not reliable missile... do you mind listing out Smokeless AAMs operational(for my reference)

And no matter what BVRAAM pk is not more than 20% and this applies for all BVRAAMs...

If any weapon reached user trials for IAF, trust me it is definitely one of the best in class and France(Rafale Deal) knows it very well...

IAF is playing with their new toy... I bet it will be inducted and gets into mass production soon...

Now the real question is how Aastra fares when compared to other missiles in its class....

None in the forum has answer for this question, so just stop jumping into conclusions

And folks lets stop comparing Aastra with other missiles and wait for IAF feedback

PS.. If someone does it for first time, it doesn't mean that product is not upto the mark...nor its iteration will be better than the current one...

And India also has a long list of doing marvelous products in their first attempt, so.....just don't.....
 
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Chinmoy

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I don't agree with you.

The best test benchs and trials of the world don't make a product good. They only give you the information about how far your product is efficient or not.
A shit product, even intensively tested, remain a shit.

MDBA team can rely on dozen and dozen years of practice, tools and projects.

Indian teams in this special area don't have yet this kind of experience. And experience can't be purchased or learned.

It's the same problem with Kaveri, Tejas, Arjun.... Your learning curve is not at a end.

It's not a question of intelligence, because you are a brillant people. You just need time.

Je vous souhaite une excellente journée :)

Its good that you mentioned the likes of Tejas................. Just tell me one thing. How many accidents the like of Mirage, Rafale, Gripen faced in their development cycle? And how many accidents does Tejas sufferend in last 16 years of flight?
Lets talk about Kaveri. You should be aware that ADA did awarded SNECMA in 2006 the contract for technical assistance in Kaveri. Inspite of so much of experience and integrating the M88 core, why they haven't been able to develop Kaveri for 7 long years?
Arjun is a totally different beast. Its not a failure. Its not been inducted into force in numbers not because of any technical failure, but for its weight factor. Its armour and firing power is much better and in conjuncture with T90 respectively.

I agree with your last line though. That's the same thing I mentioned earlier too. METEOR is not a world class AAM because brilliant people designed it. Its one of the best missile because it had undergone tremendous testing and trial and error in development.

The same applies for ASTRA. Right now it may not be at par with METEOR or AAMRAM, but it is one of the Fifth Gen AAM. And remember that India had never developed a 1st Gen AAM. Its the first and they have directly aimed for Fifth Gen. So a 80% success in itself is a achievement.

Brilliance n'est pas dans ce que vous avez réalisé, son dans le procès pour y parvenir ...... :)
 

BON PLAN

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We are making an AAM for the first time but that really doesn't mean that Aastra is not reliable missile... do you mind listing out Smokeless AAMs operational(for my reference)

And no matter what BVRAAM pk is not more than 20% and this applies for all BVRAAMs...

If any weapon reached user trials for IAF, trust me it is definitely one of the best in class and France(Rafale Deal) knows it very well...

IAF is playing with their new toy... I bet it will be inducted and gets into mass production soon...

Now the real question is how Aastra fares when compared to other missiles in its class....

None in the forum has answer for this question, so just stop jumping into conclusions

And folks lets stop comparing Aastra with other missiles and wait for IAF feedback

PS.. If someone does it for first time, it doesn't mean that product is not upto the mark...nor its iteration will be better than the current one...

And India also has a long list of doing marvelous products in their first attempt, so.....just don't.....
How many cruises do Arihant?
LCH : OK. but a direct derivative of Dhruv helo, itself developped from a german helo.
Frigate & corvette : OK. But once again, it's easyer to produce a surface vessel than a sub (for exemple).
 

BON PLAN

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Its good that you mentioned the likes of Tejas................. Just tell me one thing. How many accidents the like of Mirage, Rafale, Gripen faced in their development cycle? And how many accidents does Tejas sufferend in last 16 years of flight?
Lets talk about Kaveri. You should be aware that ADA did awarded SNECMA in 2006 the contract for technical assistance in Kaveri. Inspite of so much of experience and integrating the M88 core, why they haven't been able to develop Kaveri for 7 long years?
Rafale : 0 loss in dev. (I'm sure of this)
Mirage 2000 : 0 loss in dev (If I remember well)
(Because I'm French, I only speak about these 2 planes).

Sorry : No firm contract was inked in 2006 or 2007 or... between Snecma and India. They spoke, spoke and only spoke, but no firmed contract at the end. => TROP CHER MON AMI !!! (too costly my friend)
 

Chinmoy

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Rafale : 0 loss in dev. (I'm sure of this)
Mirage 2000 : 0 loss in dev (If I remember well)
(Because I'm French, I only speak about these 2 planes).

Sorry : No firm contract was inked in 2006 or 2007 or... between Snecma and India. They spoke, spoke and only spoke, but no firmed contract at the end. => TROP CHER MON AMI !!! (too costly my friend)
Jackson, Paul; Munson, Kenneth; & Peacock, Lindsay (Eds.) (2005). "ADA Tejas" in Jane's All The World's Aircraft 2005-06. Coulsdon, Surrey, UK: Jane's Information Group Limited. p. 195. ISBN 0-7106-2684-3.

Read this and you would know whether it has been offered or not. How you think the M88 core got there in first place.

But lets not derail the thread and keep it up to ASTRA only. Moreover Rafale and Mirage may not have met with any development accident. But it doesn't mean we could compare them with Tejas for that. But we could for sure say that less experienced HAL and ADA engineers did created a plane on par with what more experienced people in Dassault did. Can't we :)???
 

BON PLAN

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But we could for sure say that less experienced HAL and ADA engineers did created a plane on par with what more experienced people in Dassault did. Can't we :)???
on par? difficult to compare a light plane with two medium ones (a "light" medium : M2000 and a real medium one : Rafale). But Rafale is on duty until 10 years when Tejas is not (if I remember well FOC is pushed back once again).

But you will succeed at the end. It's only a question of time. You will learn from your difficulties, as we do before.
 

Chinmoy

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on par? difficult to compare a light plane with two medium ones (a "light" medium : M2000 and a real medium one : Rafale). But Rafale is on duty until 10 years when Tejas is not (if I remember well FOC is pushed back once again).

But you will succeed at the end. It's only a question of time. You will learn from your difficulties, as we do before.
Here you are again taking things into another dimension. Let me quote what you mentioned and from where these things originated.

You really think India is able, with very few experience, to produce better propulsion system than USA for exemple ? Sure not.
I am not even comparing Tejas with any of the Dassault product. Let me self quote myself.
Moreover Rafale and Mirage may not have met with any development accident. But it doesn't mean we could compare them with Tejas for that.
I clearly mentioned what I want to say. But what I am pointing is, its not experience which make your products reliable. Its the tests and improvement of trial and error which makes it reliable. With experience you could only try to make a world class system. No where I mentioned that we are born genius.
 

airtel

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How many cruises do Arihant?
officially , no information is available about Arihant , officially ..........:)


LCH : OK. but a direct derivative of Dhruv helo, itself developped from a german helo.
similarly our next submarine will be developed from french Scorpène & Russian KILO .:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

Frigate & corvette : OK. But once again, it's easyer to produce a surface vessel than a sub (for exemple).

nothing is easy for inexperienced people .:)
 
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BON PLAN

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But what I am pointing is, its not experience which make your products reliable. Its the tests and improvement of trial and error which makes it reliable. With experience you could only try to make a world class system. No where I mentioned that we are born genius.
Once again I'm not convinced.
Experience help you not to follow a false track (false track probably explored before....)
The better tests and tools of the world don't avoid a shit to be a shit.
 

Chinmoy

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Once again I'm not convinced.
Experience help you not to follow a false track (false track probably explored before....)
The better tests and tools of the world don't avoid a shit to be a shit.
Tests and tools helps you to refine your shit and extract the proteins and nutrients out of it. Isn't it so???
Whereas experience only teaches you what not to do and how not to do. But how to do better depends on how much shit you have refined and processed.
 

tejas warrior

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Indian Astra Missile Still Needs Russian Tech To Find Targets
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, December 19, 2016
NEW DELHI — In conflict with claims that India's 40-kilometer-range Astra Mark-1 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) is indigenous, the Indian Air Force (IAF) says it will forever be dependent on Russia for the missile's critical technologies.

The IAF says the missile's developer, state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), simply cannot produce it fully in-house.

"The missile seeker (main part for guidance) is based on Russian R-77 radar seeker in Astra Mark-1, and the homemade seeker has not been developed," according to a senior IAF official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The seeker helps in firing the missile from beyond visual range, tracking and then locking onto the target, the IAF official explained. It also provides the capability to follow its target despite complicated maneuvers, the official added.

"Astra missile is unlikely to be fully indigenous, as critical components like active sensor and proximity fuses would have to be imported as of now," said Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst.

However, a DRDO scientist said the "radio frequency seeker is a transfer of technology from Russia, but the other subassembly is indigenous."

"After the latest tests (Dec.11-13), Astra Mark-1 missile will get into induction stage in another six to eight months," according to the DRDO scientist.

But the IAF official said the service may not induct the Astra Mark-1 missile because it's unsure if it will even be proven in the field.


The IAF is currently pushing for a longer-range BVRAAM. "IAF has already told Ministry of Defence that it will mount only an upgraded version of Astra missiles on Light Combat Aircraft-series fighters," the IAF official noted
.

DRDO has already begun work on the Mark-2 version of the Astra missile with a range of up to 100 kilometers, similar to the French Meteor BVRAAM, the DRDO scientist said.


"With China having tested a very-long-range air-to-air missile early this year and Astra Mark-2 missile remaining the main requirement of IAF, which is still in initial stages of development, India will need to import advanced BVRAAM soon,"
another IAF official said.

Astra Mark-1 missile is a single-stage, solid-propellant missile that is 3.57 meters long and flies at more than four times the speed of sound at Mach 4.5.

"The technology used in Astra missile is more sophisticated than indigenous Agni (ballistic medium-range nuclear-able missile), as it works on a terminal active radar seeker and an updated mid-course internal guidance system that helps the missile in locating the target," according to the DRDO scientist.

Indian fighter aircraft are currently armed with Russian, French and Israeli BVR missiles.

"Astra missile, however, is not likely to be cheaper than other fully developed BVR missiles, considering the extent of research and development funding and other development costs," defense analyst Singh added.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...ependent-on-russia-despite-indigenous-efforts
 

Rahul Singh

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But the IAF official said the service may not induct the Astra Mark-1 missile because it's unsure if it will even be proven in the field.


The IAF is currently pushing for a longer-range BVRAAM. "IAF has already told Ministry of Defence that it will mount only an upgraded version of Astra missiles on Light Combat Aircraft-series fighters," the IAF official noted
.
I can't say if this is another farticle. But like to remind those who are questioning the range of Astra MK-1 that the newest purchase of IAF; Rafale is coming with MICA a missile very very similar to Astra MK-1 in every respect including range. Plus a requirement that effectively delayed Astra MK-1 by at least 5 years; smokeless propellant is something missing in MICA. Interestingly Mirage 2000 which IAF is upgrading --without the engine-- at the cost of brand new Tejas MK-1 also has MICA as only BVRAAM.

So why question percentage of indigenous content of Astra MK-1 when you are happily importing an inferior BVRAAM at atleast double the cost?

MICA RF( check out its smoke trail)

Astra MK-1
 
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airtel

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Meteor was build by MBDA , now go & check how many countries have shares in MBDA ......................

and these losers expect inexperienced DRDO to make everything from zero with a little budget .
 

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