Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[Ancient Indian]

What you are saying is true, that it is a derivative of Vedic language. I suppose you need to ask this question to whoever is curious as to why use the term "Sanskrit" at all? We have discussed this in DFI years ago. It is a pain to look for those old threads, but I believe they are out there somewhere.

I will search them.

Sanskrit is convenient to brahmins.
After they forgot vedas, they had to make something to stand out. So sanskrit came.

Remember the period after Buddhism decline. There was big literature work happened at the time.
They replaced vedic hymns with some poems that are related to Gods.

 

[pmaitra]

I will search them.

Sanskrit is convenient to brahmins.
After they forgot vedas, they had to make something to stand out. So sanskrit came.

Remember the period after Buddhism decline. There was big literature work happened at the time.
They replaced vedic hymns with some poems that are related to Gods.

Renaissance during the Golden Era, i.e. the Gupta Period?

 

[Ancient Indian]

Renaissance during the Golden Era, i.e. the Gupta Period?

No. Hindu spirituality has nothing do with Gupthas.

After the decline of Guptha Empire, there was huge power vacuum in our country. If you read more about the history at that period, you will find brahmin kings who ruled small segments in North West.
They never did any great to spirituality or any other departments.

All credit goes to Shankaracharya and Ramanujacharya. They are flag bearers of Hindu Renaissance movement. Many things happened at the time.

 

[Razor]

Relations between languages are determined not just by phonolgical comparision (as in the sound aum) but also syntax (sentence structure etc), vocabulary and morphology (change of linguistic units like morphemes etc) comparision.
Through such comparisions it is determined that samskrtam is part of the Indo-aryan languages. which are related to Iranic languages forming along with dardic languages the sub group Indo-Iranian languages of the language family Indo-European.
Sanskrit and other IA languages have also come in contact with austro-Asiatic language family (munda languages etc) and Dravidian language family and the IVC languages. These have influenced sanskrit and vice-versa.

Now, the PIE (proto indo-euro) language is a hypothetical language, which means there is no evidence to such a language, not yet. A proto-X language is usually constructed through comparative methods.

Also "refute my claim"

What claim are you talking about?

@Razor

If Iranian languages and Indic languages belongs to same branch, then they should have the word 'aum'.

But I found no aum in Iranian languages.

here we should understand that, there is no alternative to aum. Aryan wrote millions of slokas regarding aum.

Hope you got my dilemma.

The term "Sanskrit" is itself a substantive. So now, we need to consider why it is called "Sanskrit" in the first place.

This, and along with that, consider what @Razor said.

I am not sure what the position of the person you are having a fight with is. Therefore, I cannot comment on your argument with him.

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Also as per the archaeologists the Tamil script and the undecipherable MohenjoDaro Harrapa script bear remarkable similarity. How can you explain that?

Can you explain the continues absence of aum in its sibling language?
I checked almost all the languages in same branch.

If they are indeed originated from same parent, surely Iranian languages should have mentioned of aum which is very important word in vedic language.

I already asked same question to Razor.

P.S.: It is private conversation with one of those so called experts I regularly provoke.
I want to have similar discussion with you.

So now, back to the discussion.

What ancient indian asked was why after many searches he wasn't able to find the cousins of the word "aum" in other Indo-Iranian(ii) &/or Indo-Euro(ie) languages.
To be able to locate such cognates you need to know phonological change rules (or patterns, if you will)

Basically sound pattern changes in languages, usually follow certain rules. I don't know much, since I'm not a trained linguist.
Look it up, this may help you widen the search for cognates of the word "aum"

I haven't gone through the various possible cognates or origins of aum, there might be in other Indo-Iranian (or even Indo-euro) languages. @Peter has posted some posiiblities from wiki.

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Now another possiblity is in the first quote of mine (emboldened and underlined)
When people come in contact there is exchange of tools or techonolgy or ideas or practices or vocabulary/lexicon.
This might be the origin of many words like "aum". Do remember that Indo-Aryan languages have come in contact with at least Austroasiatic and dravidian languages in the Indian-subcontinent. Hence there might have been exchanges.

For eg: You cannot find the origin of the word "mango" in IE languages but that doesn't mean English isn't IE language.
Mango comes from Tamil "mangai". So does Catamaran (katta maram).
Similarly "business mogul": Mogul comes from Hindi/Urdu "Mughal" ultimately meaning Mongol.
More examples "Bahadur", "Jackfruit", "rice" so on.

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[Ancient Indian]

So now, back to the discussion.

What ancient indian asked was why after many searches he wasn't able to find the cousins of the word "aum" in other Indo-Iranian(ii) &/or Indo-Euro(ie) languages.
To be able to locate such cognates you need to know phonological change rules (or patterns, if you will)

Basically sound pattern changes in languages, usually follow certain rules. I don't know much, since I'm not a trained linguist.
Look it up, this may help you widen the search for cognates of the word "aum"

I haven't gone through the various possible cognates or origins of aum, there might be in other Indo-Iranian (or even Indo-euro) languages. @Peter has posted some posiiblities from wiki.

---------------------

Now another possiblity is in the first quote of mine (emboldened and underlined)
When people come in contact there is exchange of tools or techonolgy or ideas or practices or vocabulary/lexicon.
This might be the origin of many words like "aum". Do remember that Indo-Aryan languages have come in contact with at least Austroasiatic and dravidian languages in the Indian-subcontinent. Hence there might have been exchanges.

For eg: You cannot find the origin of the word "mango" in IE languages but that doesn't mean English isn't IE language.
Mango comes from Tamil "mangai". So does Catamaran (katta maram).
Similarly "business mogul": Mogul comes from Hindi/Urdu "Mughal" ultimately meaning Mongol.
More examples "Bahadur", "Jackfruit", "rice" so on.

-------------------

If it is mango or any other word, I would have no problem with these theories.

AUM is different. It is the core of hindu spirituality.
If your claim is true and aum came after the interactions with Indian, then it makes aryans nothing special.
Aryans are famous because of their scriptures. Aum is the root of everything according to them.

Please read Mandukya Upanishad.
It is fully dedicated to Aum sound.

I checked both avesta and its zoroastrian religion. I know many of you make arguments based on the supposed similarity b/w Earlier Iranian languages and Vedic language.
But I found no relation between those two languages at core level.

Surely vedic contemporary language such as Avesta should at least have some mentions of Vedic word aum.

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[Bharat Ek Khoj]

Biggest proof of Aryan invasion

 

[busesaway]

I don't think this is the best place to post this but anyway...

There's a problem with Pakistanis going on Wikipedia pretending to be Indians and "aryanizing" everything. A lot of it is just out-of-context "additional information" that doesn't need to be there.

 

[busesaway]

Just to confirm:
"The Vedic period estates were three, Brahmin priests and warrior nobility were first, peasants and traders as second, and laborers and artisans belonging to indigenous (non-Aryan) people were third.[48]"
The part that says "indigenous (non-Aryan) people" is false, yes?

 

[Bharat Ek Khoj]

Just to confirm:
"The Vedic period estates were three, Brahmin priests and warrior nobility were first, peasants and traders as second, and laborers and artisans belonging to indigenous (non-Aryan) people were third.[48]"
The part that says "indigenous (non-Aryan) people" is false, yes?

You yourself said that pakis are "aryanizing" everything. So don't trust everything wikipedia says. Anybody can add anything in wikipedia.

 

[busesaway]

There needs to be more for a front on wikipedia, because Pakistanis are outnumbering South Indians by miles.

 

[pmaitra]

Just to confirm:
"The Vedic period estates were three, Brahmin priests and warrior nobility were first, peasants and traders as second, and laborers and artisans belonging to indigenous (non-Aryan) people were third.[48]"
The part that says "indigenous (non-Aryan) people" is false, yes?

The whole thing is false.

• There were four, not three.
• Those were Varnas, not estates.
• The priests and warriors were not the first. The priests were the first and the warriors were the second.
• Varna system has nothing to do with Aryan or Dravidian. A person from either Aryan or Dravidian ancestry could belong to any of the four Varnas.

 

[busesaway]

The whole thing is false.

• There were four, not three.
• Those were Varnas, not estates.
• The priests and warriors were not the first. The priests were the first and the warriors were the second.
• Varna system has nothing to do with Aryan or Dravidian. A person from either Aryan or Dravidian ancestry could belong to any of the four Varnas.

I think someone changed the text, which may have been you, but whoever it was, thank-you. A lot of my own edits on wikipedia get reversed, especially when I get into heated arguments with Paksitanis.

 

[OrangeFlorian]

The whole thing is false.

• Varna system has nothing to do with Aryan or Dravidian. A person from either Aryan or Dravidian ancestry could belong to any of the four Varnas.

My mother family is very light skinned like North Indians but are low caste and from Mangalore

 

[dude00720]

Can you explain the continues absence of aum in its sibling language?
I checked almost all the languages in same branch.

If they are indeed originated from same parent, surely Iranian languages should have mentioned of aum which is very important word in vedic language.

I already asked same question to Razor.

P.S.: It is private conversation with one of those so called experts I regularly provoke.
I want to have similar discussion with you.

@ancientIndian - You should try finding the earliest reference to AUM in the Vedas. That might open up the your question better.

 

[LurkerBaba]

AUM is different. It is the core of hindu spirituality.
If your claim is true and aum came after the interactions with Indian, then it makes aryans nothing special.
Aryans are famous because of their scriptures. Aum is the root of everything according to them.

AFAIK the entire Rig Veda is purely a series of sounds which have been passed on. Sanskrit came later

Sanskrit is convenient to brahmins.
After they forgot vedas, they had to make something to stand out. So sanskrit came.

Can you elaborate ?

Wiki says otherwise
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant

"The oral tradition of the Vedas (Śrauta) consists of several pathas, "recitations" or ways of chanting the Vedic mantras. Such traditions of Vedic chant are often considered the oldest unbroken oral tradition in existence, the fixation of the Vedic texts (samhitas) as preserved dating to roughly the time of Homer (early Iron Age)"

 

[pmaitra]

I think someone changed the text, which may have been you, but whoever it was, thank-you. A lot of my own edits on wikipedia get reversed, especially when I get into heated arguments with Paksitanis.

No, I did not edit Wikipedia.
_______________________________________

 

[pmaitra]

My mother family is very light skinned like North Indians but are low caste and from Mangalore

Kansi Ram is light skinned, but is a Dalit. Modi is also light skinned. On the other hand, Mamata Banerjee is very dark. Rajnath Singh is also very dark.

Skin tone does not always indicate caste.

There are Bhumihars who have been at different points classified as both Shudras and Brahmins.

 

[Anirbann Datta]

found this GOLD in FB......
have a look....

 

[dude00720]

Kansi Ram is light skinned, but is a Dalit. Modi is also light skinned. On the other hand, Mamata Banerjee is very dark. Rajnath Singh is also very dark.

Skin tone does not always indicate caste.

There are Bhumihars who have been at different points classified as both Shudras and Brahmins.

This business of caste is nothing but preference of colour. Sadly, this is the biggest relic of British and Middle-eastern Rule. We patronise White colour.

But, Fact is, in Older days, Colour was not so important. Rama and Krishna both mean, Dark complexion. Most of the idols in older temples are dark tone. That needs to change.

Sadly, Our biggest cultural export Bollywood perpetuates it.

 

[OrangeFlorian]

Sadly, Our biggest cultural export Bollywood perpetuates it.

Ban Fair and Lovely


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