Article: China must recover territory 'looted' by neighbours, said PLA General

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Ray

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what is Chinese?

Han, Tang, Yuan, Ming, Qing, ALL Chinese dynastys.

what is Chinese now?

People's Republic of China.

who are Chinese?

you are talking with one.
Some of the dynasties you mention are not Han in its actual terms.

And yet, 92% or thereabouts are Han in China.

Where did the others disappear?

Who looted what?

That is the issue!

The Chinese General speaks of Chinese territory looted, but the Chinese history is one big loot of lands.

Here is the loot, duly animated:

 
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JustForLaughs

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Some of the dynasties you mention are not Han in its actual terms.

And yet, 92% or thereabouts are Han in China.

Where did the others disappear?

Who looted what?

That is the issue!

The Chinese General speaks of Chinese territory looted, but the Chinese history is one big loot of lands.

Here is the loot, duly animated:

for the last time. who claim yuan and qing are han!?

disappear? you think these ethnic went anywhere? even funnier, they are our leaders!



http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/6769/asdgreheyr.png

source: Page 63 http://www.nbr.org/publications/asia_policy/Free/Asia_Policy_6_Li.pdf


btw, you keep posting that gif.

"the Chinese history is one big loot of lands."

have you seen which dynasty are included? im glad you realize this now.
 

redragon

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Justforlaughs,
I appreciate your debating with Ray on behalf of all Chinese, I used to do that in Indian forums too, however I realized later, the best way to demonstrate that China will be better and can be a melting pot for different races is to do a good job not to conduct a debate, the hard facts, numbers and pictures are the best supports to our silent debate. Let's focus on now to make what we have better, everything else will come naturely.
P.S, I know sometimes it's diffcult not to be involved, I still joined debate from time to time, but I am learning to control myself.
 

JustForLaughs

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Justforlaughs,
I appreciate your debating with Ray on behalf of all Chinese, I used to do that in Indian forums too, however I realized later, the best way to demonstrate that China will be better and can be a melting pot for different races is to do a good job not to conduct a debate, the hard facts, numbers and pictures are the best supports to our silent debate. Let's focus on now to make what we have better, everything else will come naturely.
P.S, I know sometimes it's diffcult not to be involved, I still joined debate from time to time, but I am learning to control myself.
i only joined to discuss. otherwise i would be a lurking guest.

my issue is not Ray. im not trying to convince him or anyone here (i know it is hard to believe because of my crude style, but is true).

im posting for this because i dont like the idea of something that i think is incorrect just sitting there while no Chinese respond. even worse if Chinese respond in the thread but not the post. it gives the impression that it is right or we agree, to those reading. i only reply so it is there. this isnt about Ray.
 

Ray

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The Historical "Yueh"

The southeastern coastal inhabitants were known to the Chinese as the Yueh barbarians. The name was extended southward as the Chinese expanded their empire. These Yueh people were noted for their skills in navigation and their savagery in battle; the population of the early state of Yueh (5th-4th centuries B.C.) centered in the Lower Yangzi practiced wet rice cultivation and were engaged in trade along the coast. Modern ethnographic and linguistic researches point to an Austroasiatic linguistic affiliation for these peoples. The Vietnamese retain the name "Yueh" and the Cantonese are also still called "Yuet" and derive in part from the aboriginal population.

The Yueh, in later texts referred to as the "Hundred Yueh", were certainly a diverse population, and may have included different language families and markedly different customs. The Tai-speaking Chuang of Guangsi province today have oral traditions of earlier occupation of coastal areas, and may have been included in the Yueh. Similarly, the Kedai-speaking Li tribes of Hainan Island are almost certainly descended from the Yueh.

A process of gradual though erratic cultural assimilation of the Yueh began after the Ch'in - early Han conquest, and by the end Han had brought a large number of the Yueh people into the sphere of Chinese culture. Han historical texts provide ample evidence of the acceptance of Yueh chiefs and high ranking individuals into the Han administrative system, even into the army itself.

The Han chamber tomb mentioned above may represent the presence of a Han official in the area of northern Kowloon, but it is equally possible that it represents a sinicized Yueh chieftain with Han patronage. However, there are few Han sites in the territory, and the implication is clearly that the large population suggested by number and richness of Bronze Age sites had dispersed.

By the Six Dynasties era, the local population seems to have revived, and evidence of lime kilns dating from the 3rd to the 9th centuries A.D. are found on most of the beach sites. These people were almost certainly partly assimilated Yueh -- the ancestors of the Cantonese.

[url-http://www.hkarch.org/en_news.html]Hong Kong Archaeological Society[/url]

That much for Hong Kong and south eastern Chinese being Han Chinese, taking the statistics of 92% of China are Hans!
 

JustForLaughs

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The Historical "Yueh"

The southeastern coastal inhabitants were known to the Chinese as the Yueh barbarians. The name was extended southward as the Chinese expanded their empire. These Yueh people were noted for their skills in navigation and their savagery in battle; the population of the early state of Yueh (5th-4th centuries B.C.) centered in the Lower Yangzi practiced wet rice cultivation and were engaged in trade along the coast. Modern ethnographic and linguistic researches point to an Austroasiatic linguistic affiliation for these peoples. The Vietnamese retain the name "Yueh" and the Cantonese are also still called "Yuet" and derive in part from the aboriginal population.

The Yueh, in later texts referred to as the "Hundred Yueh", were certainly a diverse population, and may have included different language families and markedly different customs. The Tai-speaking Chuang of Guangsi province today have oral traditions of earlier occupation of coastal areas, and may have been included in the Yueh. Similarly, the Kedai-speaking Li tribes of Hainan Island are almost certainly descended from the Yueh.

A process of gradual though erratic cultural assimilation of the Yueh began after the Ch'in - early Han conquest, and by the end Han had brought a large number of the Yueh people into the sphere of Chinese culture. Han historical texts provide ample evidence of the acceptance of Yueh chiefs and high ranking individuals into the Han administrative system, even into the army itself.

The Han chamber tomb mentioned above may represent the presence of a Han official in the area of northern Kowloon, but it is equally possible that it represents a sinicized Yueh chieftain with Han patronage. However, there are few Han sites in the territory, and the implication is clearly that the large population suggested by number and richness of Bronze Age sites had dispersed.

By the Six Dynasties era, the local population seems to have revived, and evidence of lime kilns dating from the 3rd to the 9th centuries A.D. are found on most of the beach sites. These people were almost certainly partly assimilated Yueh -- the ancestors of the Cantonese.

[url-http://www.hkarch.org/en_news.html]Hong Kong Archaeological Society[/url]

That much for Hong Kong and south eastern Chinese being Han Chinese, taking the statistics of 92% of China are Hans!
真係?
你想同我講香港/廣東人?

haha....history lesson again? Cantonese are created from Han Soldiers and the so called Yue. you think this is new to me? crazy.

what is your point anyway?
 

Ray

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真係?
你想同我講香港/廣東人?

haha....history lesson again? Cantonese are created from Han Soldiers and the so called Yue. you think this is new to me? crazy.

what is your point anyway?
so, you doubt even the Chinese Hong Kong Archaeological Society findings?

Good for you.

In the Qin Dynasty Chinese troops moved southward and conquered the Baiyue territories, and many Han people began settling in the Lingnan area. This migration led to the Chinese language being spoken in the Lingnan area. After Zhao Tuo was made the Duke of Nanyue by the Qin Dynasty and given authority over the Nanyue region, many Han people entered the area and lived together with the Nanyue population, consequently affecting the lifestyle of the Nanyue people as well as stimulating the spread of the Chinese language.



In the Sui Dynasty, North China was in a period of war and discontent, and many people moved southwards to avoid war, forming the first mass migration of Han people into the South.

That much for Hong Kong being original Han.

It is like Anglo Indians claiming that they are pure British. They don't. They are proud to be Anglo Indians.
 
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Ray

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真係?
你想同我講香港/廣東人?
You write - Real system? Do you want to speak with me in Hong Kong / Cantonese?

This is an English language forum and all do not understand foreign languages. Therefore, write in English.
 

amoy

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I like that animation for territorial sphere of ancient dynasties, except for Qing Dynasty (Manchu), who claimed a larger one than shown. Should the history have been taught that way it could have been far more fun.

Yue = Viet (meaning 'escape' or 'trespass'). In Viet Nam (Yue Nan) u can see traces of ancient Chinese culture visible everywhere although Vietnam got independence from China's dynasties from time to time, and was once was a French colony replacing Chinese characters with Roman scripts . A Chinese can't be mistaken in toilet if careful enough - in Vietnamese Male >> Nam = Nan (Mandarin), Female >>Lu = Nv (Mandarin)

What matters most for people today is to enjoy what we have now while history is but an echo from the past. Nobody claims now Vietnam was looted nowadays. We plainly accept all the consequences of history.
 
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Ray

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I like that animation for territorial sphere of ancient dynasties, except for Qing Dynasty (Manchu), who claimed a larger one than shown. Should the history have been taught that way it could have been far more fun.

Yue = Viet (meaning 'escape' or 'trespass'). In Viet Nam (Yue Nan) u can see traces of ancient Chinese culture visible everywhere although Vietnam got independence from China's dynasties from time to time, and was once was a French colony replacing Chinese characters with Roman scripts . A Chinese can't be mistaken in toilet if careful enough - in Vietnamese Male >> Nam = Nan (Mandarin), Female >>Lu = Nv (Mandarin)

What matters most for people today is to enjoy what we have now while history is but an echo from the past. Nobody claims now Vietnam was looted nowadays. We plainly accept all the consequences of history.
The Triệu Dynasty (Vietnamese: Nhà Triệu) is the name given in Vietnam to the lineage of kings of the kingdom of Nam Việt (Nanyue).

China did attack Vietnam.

On January 1, 1979, Deng Xiaoping visited the USA for the first time and spoke to American president Jimmy Carter: "Children who don't listen have to be spanked." (original Chinese words: 小朋友不听话,该打打屁股了
 
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Ray

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I wish to make a point.

While you all are expressing your consternation of the world's interpretation of Han and Chinese, you forget that the issue that started this discussion is the Chinese General writing that China should recover territory looted by neighbours.

In other words, justifying that the General is right and that the neighbours have looted Chinese territory.

Are you all thus implying that we are not permitted to be inflamed by this callous writing of the General, more so, when nothing can be printed without official approval?

All that is being shown by me is the expansion of China and assimilating regions and peoples through history into China and hence the issue of neighbours looting is figment of imagination and more of an expression prompted by the official line of 100 years of Shame.
 

Ray

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Notwithstanding, many an issue discussed here, have given a fresher insight.

And to that extent, I daresay, I remain better educated.
 

JustForLaughs

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so, you doubt even the Chinese Hong Kong Archaeological Society findings?

Good for you.

In the Qin Dynasty Chinese troops moved southward and conquered the Baiyue territories, and many Han people began settling in the Lingnan area. This migration led to the Chinese language being spoken in the Lingnan area. After Zhao Tuo was made the Duke of Nanyue by the Qin Dynasty and given authority over the Nanyue region, many Han people entered the area and lived together with the Nanyue population, consequently affecting the lifestyle of the Nanyue people as well as stimulating the spread of the Chinese language.



In the Sui Dynasty, North China was in a period of war and discontent, and many people moved southwards to avoid war, forming the first mass migration of Han people into the South.

That much for Hong Kong being original Han.

It is like Anglo Indians claiming that they are pure British. They don't. They are proud to be Anglo Indians.
doubt what? you cant read? im well aware of Han expansion against Yue people. again, what is your point?

claim to be original han? who are you quoting? i think you think im half yue half han? better check the time frames. they didnt even all mix. not to mention even the ones that did, as i repeatedly tell you, Chinese follow the father line. (even though i think its painfully obvious, Ray might miss this also. father line, han soldier intermarry with whoever is irrelevant) so again, what is your point???

LOL claim what? i know we claim 香港人,廣東人even唐人

seems to me you are attempting some sort of lame weird point of attack. which is just funny because its so ineffective im not even sure.
 
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JustForLaughs

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You write - Real system? Do you want to speak with me in Hong Kong / Cantonese?

This is an English language forum and all do not understand foreign languages. Therefore, write in English.
that isnt remotely what i said. you should know better than to use google for Chinese. tsk tsk tsk.

you make many post in Chinese charc. but fine, i guess you dont need to know what i said.
 

Ray

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that isnt remotely what i said. you should know better than to use google for Chinese. tsk tsk tsk.

you make many post in Chinese charc. but fine, i guess you dont need to know what i said.
Tongzhi,

Again the usual obfuscation that is a forte with some Chinese, more so those who are Communist party hacks.

It is exactly what you said and by the way, it is not Google since I do not know how such a translation is done.

I will try it now and see what is the answer and then post.

You are right, one does not have to give credence to anything that you have to write since it is but the residual effect of the Opium War!
 
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Ray

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This is what google has to say

* 1 很好奇地問[1]
* 2 Only in places without credible Chinese linguists/America
* 3 粤语维基有存在嘅必要么?
* 4 What?!
* 5 我们为什么不需要粤语Wiki (Why we do not need a Cantonese Wiki)
o 5.1 语言和方言,口头语言和书写语言 (Language and Dialect, Spoken Language and Written Language)
o 5.2 共享还是不共享 (To Share or Not to Share)
* 6 粤语维基有必要吗?
* 7 分流頁: 乜乜乜可以係/ 可以指
* 8 對粵語維基百科嘅意見
* 9 支持粵語維基百科?!
* 10 I think it is stupid to include Cantonese in Wilipedia!
* 11 不知所謂的粵語

Link
 

JustForLaughs

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Again the usual obfuscation that is a forte with some Chinese, more so those who are Communist party hacks.

It is exactly what you said and by the way, it is not Google since I do not know how such a translation is done.

I will try it now and see what is the answer and then post.
WOW. i said "真係?你想同我講香港/廣東人?"

your ridiculous translation
You write - Real system? Do you want to speak with me in Hong Kong / Cantonese?
now, anyone interested,

put "真係?
你想同我講香港/廣東人?"

into google translate and tell me what you get.

http://translate.google.com/#zh-CN|en|


have you seriously lost your mind? telling a Chinese what he said isnt what he said?
 

Ray

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This what it says:

Google Translate
Try a new browser with automatic translation.
Download Google Chrome
From:
Chinese
â–¼
To:
English
â–¼
Translate text or webpage
Type text or a website address or translate a document.
Cancel
Listen
Chinese to English translation
"True system?
Do you want to speak with me in Hong Kong / Cantonese? "

http://translate.google.com/#zh-CN|en|"真係? 你想同我講香港/廣東人?"

You are sure you are Chinese? I am not talking of your original antecedent!
 

JustForLaughs

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This what it says:

Google Translate
Try a new browser with automatic translation.
Download Google Chrome
From:
Chinese
â–¼
To:
English
â–¼
Translate text or webpage
Type text or a website address or translate a document.
Cancel
Listen
Chinese to English translation
"True system?
Do you want to speak with me in Hong Kong / Cantonese? "

http://translate.google.com/#zh-CN|en|"真係? 你想同我講香港/廣東人?"

You are sure you are Chinese?
this is too funny. i dont think im going to end it just yet.



hehe, i admit, i was wrong. what an AMAZING coincidence you and google translate come up with the same translation. you MUST be right LOL. what was i thinking.


since you figured out what i said in Chinese. why dont you explain to me what true system im talking about?


ray? where are you? LOL
 
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neoshangh

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One point

How many laguages have been used in India? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_India

People use other luguage except English XX XX XX and so on-------They are not Indians---- I conducted this conclusion in Ray's logic.

By the way,please read the article carefully on WIKI.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese

In English, the term "Cantonese" is ambiguous. Cantonese proper is the dialect native to the city of Canton, which is the traditional English name of Guangzhou, and later brought to Hong Kong and Macau;[citation needed] this narrow sense may be specified as "Canton dialect" or "Guangzhou dialect" in English.

what is a dialect?
 
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