Army may scrap FMBT and focus on Arjun

[ersakthivel]

Positioning the auto loader at the top is not a very bright idea.
it becomes a well marked target for ever increasing penetration capable APFSD rounds.
And repeated hits on ,and around the auto loader in that area will jam the autoloader.

If the autoloader is to be made compatiable with western level of protection the effort to rotate it will be huge resulting huge HP hungry mechanism for that.

Because auto loader has complex rugged mechanisms for moving ammo.
And effective compartmentalization of ammo is also not possible with this vulnerable auto loader arrangement at the top.
Any fire in auto loader compartment will blow away the tank.

And also with increasing trend towards top attack munitions the armor saved on turret will be used in largely visible vacant top area of the hull which is an inviting target.

 

[Damian]

WTF he is talking about can someone explain me? :shocked:

And effective compartmentalization of ammo is also not possible with this vulnerable auto loader arrangement at the top.
Any fire in auto loader compartment will blow away the tank.

What? In all these FMBT projects, ammunition is isolated from crew and powerpack compartments and have blow off panels on top and possibly also bottom.

And also with increasing trend towards top attack munitions the armor saved on turret will be used in largely visible vacant top area of the hull which is an inviting target.

If you have unmanned turret you can place on hull top, more armor. However in any case, this armor will allways be to weak to stop top attack ATGM's, this is why active protection system is nececary.

If the autoloader is to be made compatiable with western level of protection the effort to rotate it will be huge resulting huge HP hungry mechanism for that.

What? You want to add additional armor to the autoloader mechanisms?

Why? The only nececary thing is isolation of autoloader and ammunition from other compartments and provide them with blow off panels, that's all you need.

And repeated hits on ,and around the auto loader in that area will jam the autoloader.

Strange that all currently used autoloaders are reliable enough to not jam, and it is still better to have jammed autoloader than dead crew and destroyed tank.

Positioning the auto loader at the top is not a very bright idea.
it becomes a well marked target for ever increasing penetration capable APFSD rounds.

What?!

 

[militarysta]

For me it was unable to understand too...

 

[ersakthivel]

WTF he is talking about can someone explain me? :shocked:



What? In all these FMBT projects, ammunition is isolated from crew and powerpack compartments and have blow off panels on top and possibly also bottom.



If you have unmanned turret you can place on hull top, more armor. However in any case, this armor will allways be to weak to stop top attack ATGM's, this is why active protection system is nececary.



What? You want to add additional armor to the autoloader mechanisms?

Why? The only nececary thing is isolation of autoloader and ammunition from other compartments and provide them with blow off panels, that's all you need.



Strange that all currently used autoloaders are reliable enough to not jam, and it is still better to have jammed autoloader than dead crew and destroyed tank.



What?!

Okay WTF is your explanation for the calculation in post no-1265 in T-90 vs ARJUN.

And this unmanned turret ARMATA has got nothing to do with FMBT.
It is completely OT. Please open another thread for your posts abount unmanned turret MBTs.
You are completely derailing this discussion about indian FMBT project by posting your opinions about Unmanned turret tank,

What is it got to do with the weight reduction indian FMBT?

 

[ersakthivel]

For me it was unable to understand too...

The only thing you will understand is DEJAWOLF's 3D model which has got every thing wrong as far as internal crew arrangement in ARJUn is concerned.
And the next best thing you will understand is to keep a stony silence when I posted my estimate for arjun side armor thickness in post no-1265 in ARJUN vs T-90 thread in this forum.

 

[Damian]

Okay WTF is your explanation for the calculation in post no-1265 in T-90 vs ARJUN

My answer is that I agree with Dejawolf and STGN, but what this have to do with this topic?

Christ are you unable to just admitt that you was wrong and leave this behind?

The only thing you will understand is DEJAWOLF's 3D model which has got every thing wrong as far as internal crew arrangement in ARJUn is concerned.

To the contrary, his 3d model is nearly perfectly showing reality, but again, what this have to do with other topic? You will derail any other thread only to show that you are still trying to discredit these who do not agree with your ridicoulus claims?

And this unmanned turret ARMATA has got nothing to do with FMBT.

Not unmanned turret but a tank with unmanned turret developed under codename "Armata"... and seriously, start writing normally.

It is completely OT. Please open another thread for your posts abount unmanned turret MBTs.
You are completely derailing this discussion about indian FMBT project by posting your opinions about Unmanned turret tank,

What is it got to do with the weight reduction indian FMBT?

:shocked:

I am just speechless... you do not understand? Oh well, it seems that it is just immposible to explain you even the simplest things.

 

[ersakthivel]

My answer is that I agree with Dejawolf and STGN, but what this have to do with this topic?

Christ are you unable to just admitt that you was wrong and leave this behind?





To the contrary, his 3d model is nearly perfectly showing reality, but again, what this have to do with other topic? You will derail any other thread only to show that you are still trying to discredit these who do not agree with your ridicoulus claims?

On what basis you agree is my question you are ducking ?

Running away from a discussion like a coward is not the hall mark of a technical person who calls himself defense professionals.

What defense project in which you have contributed?

Your failure to counter my estimate in post no-1265 exposes you as a person with dubious credibility.

And this unmanned turret ARMATA has got nothing to do with FMBT.
It is completely OT. Please open another thread for your posts abount unmanned turret MBTs.
You are completely derailing this discussion about indian FMBT project by posting your opinions about Unmanned turret tank,

What is it got to do with the weight reduction indian FMBT?

If DRDO goes behind this concept in a wild goose chase , it will take 20 years to mature, so IA will buy ARMATA as it's next FMBT ,Is this your prescription.

Upgrading infra to support a FMBT version of ARJUN mk-3 is the first priority of IA logistics not sending DRDO on another wild goose chase.

AS the unmanned turret tank is no moon rider that is going to offer any decisive advantage ,all it's so called advantage can be had in FMBT version of ARJUN for a few extra ton weight .

 

[Damian]

On what basis you agree is my question you are ducking ?

@pmaitra asked me to be gentle, so I will not use a word I should use to call you. This is the basis.

Running away from a discussion like a coward is not the hall mark of a technical person who calls himself defense professionals.

Oh so you are now calling me a coward? Because in your fantasy I am running from discussion? Please, be adult, and don't act like a damn teenage...

What defense project in which you have contributed?

Non, at least yet, as I am a student of Homeland Security, and hopefully I will work in my countries MoD in near future. But I am not claiming and never claimed to participate in such projects. It is another of your fantasy.

 

[ersakthivel]

@pmaitra asked me to be gentle, so I will not use a word I should use to call you. This is the basis.



Oh so you are now calling me a coward? Because in your fantasy I am running from discussion? Please, be adult, and don't act like a damn teenage...



Non, at least yet, as I am a student of Homeland Security, and hopefully I will work in my countries MoD in near future. But I am not claiming and never claimed to participate in such projects. It is another of your fantasy.

Student of homeland security giving spurious geometry lesson to tank designers at CVRDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Advancing dubious estimates for ARJUN side armor thickness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And now lecturing us on complete OT in FMBT thread

I too have a very original word for a guy who has his tails behind his legs when asked to counter a simple dimensional estimate,

I really doubt did you ever hold a single production drawing paper in your hand through out your life,

I did hundreds of perspective and production drawing to complete my degree.

I too am holding back because of PMAITRA's instruction.

 

[Damian]

Student of homeland security giving spurious geometry lesson to tank designers at CVRDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am using a world wide knowledge, only because you are unable to accept knowledge and experience of tank designers from around the world, does not means I will be quiet and let you spread lies.

Advancing dubious estimates for ARJUN side armor thickness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which were confirmed by Dejawolf, STGN and Militarysta.

And now lecturing us on complete OT in FMBT thread

By using knowledge from design bureaus that were designing tanks for a much longer time than people in CVRDE are.

You can't accept that they were knowing better what they were doing, it is your problem, but others allready admitted that you are spreading BS.

I too have a very original word for a guy who has his tails behind his legs when asked to counter a simple dimensional estimate,

But I said that I agree with Dejawolf and STGN in their opinion about your estimations... why should I produce more useless posts only to please your trolling?

 

[ersakthivel]

Total BS. :bs:

Guys who have not commanded a single water tank ridiculing the words of retired armored corps generals.

the only division you are fit to command should comprise of the fine armored unmanned turret MBt which you posted as a smiley after the word Total BS

 

[ersakthivel]

I am using a world wide knowledge, only because you are unable to accept knowledge and experience of tank designers from around the world, does not means I will be quiet and let you spread lies.



Which were confirmed by Dejawolf, STGN and Militarysta.



By using knowledge from design bureaus that were designing tanks for a much longer time than people in CVRDE are.

You can't accept that they were knowing better what they were doing, it is your problem, but others allready admitted that you are spreading BS.



But I said that I agree with Dejawolf and STGN in their opinion about your estimations... why should I produce more useless posts only to please your trolling?

Dejawolf, STGN and Militarysta. and you a total of 4 guys unable to counter a simple estimate of dimension based on a photo in this very forum in my post no-1265
in ARJUN vs T-90 thread.

Total of 4 guys who cannot agree that they made a simple parallax error in the placement of the scribbled red box called vision block,

All 4 guys who cannot agree that the edge of the Tc's seat ends at the center of the crew hatch hole which is visible to naked eye,

If you don't even know the width of arjun turret and what is distance between the two crew hatch centers,


what is the point of holding forth about the Future Main Battle tank of India ,knowing full well unmanned turret tanks are not the topic of discussion,

why can't you use the world wide knowledge to post about the above two dimensions of a tank whose photos are available through out the net ?


What are you doing?

 

[militarysta]

The only thing you will understand is DEJAWOLF's 3D model which has got every thing wrong as far as internal crew arrangement in ARJUn is concerned.
And the next best thing you will understand is to keep a stony silence when I posted my estimate for arjun side armor thickness in post no-1265 in ARJUN vs T-90 thread in this forum.

Sorry men, but You had posted bullshit after bullshit in Arjun LOS thema. Side armour is about 50-60mm thick on crew hatch locate. You even where unable to mark inner backplate whit +/-20cm. In fact You are not very clever and you are acting like bullshitgenerator.
And Dejawolf 3D model is more or less correct. The same STGN.
There is nothing magic whit tank mesurment based on photos. I did the same for Leopard-2A4 - error in compare to the whole tank was less then 4cm.
The same about diffrent tanks.

Dejawolf, STGN and Militarysta. and you a total of 4 guys unable to counter a simple estimate of dimension based on a photo in this very forum in my post no-1265

Counter it simple - your estimate is dumb as shit. You haven't even slighty idea how to do it correct.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sorry men, but You had posted bullshit after bullshit in Arjun LOS thema. Side armour is about 50-60mm thick on crew hatch locate. You even where unable to mark inner backplate whit +/-20cm. In fact You are not very clever and you are acting like bullshitgenerator.
And Dejawolf 3D model is more or less correct. The same STGN.
There is nothing magic whit tank mesurment based on photos. I did the same for Leopard-2A4 - error in compare to the whole tank was less then 4cm.
The same about diffrent tanks.

I find it very strange that you guys are giving each other accuracy certificate.

If you are so sure of it then please PM your friend DEJAWOLF and post the answer to the following two questions,

Since your person is famous for posting leo measurements in the net,

lets check what you know about DEJAWOLF 3D model

what is the distance between the two crew hatch hole center points in the ARJUN model produced by DEJAWOLF?

From what distance the Tc's seat right hand side edge is located from the turret centerline?

Is the scribbled red box called vision block is

1.In front of the the gunner's face ,

2.to the left of the gunner,

3.To the left of the Tc?

4.or Inrfront of the TC?
r

 

[militarysta]

I

what is the distance between the two crew hatch hole center points in the ARJUN model produced by DEJAWOLF?
From what distance the Tc's seat right hand side edge is located from the turret centerline?

And in what way that is connected whit Arjun armour LOS?
Important are only turret diamensions, armour backplates, and one propper mesurment based on draw, relan mesurmant etc. Rest is quite simple -even if we shoud take into account some photo perspective.
Eacht else is not relevant to count Arjun LOS. This whole post about "crew hatch" is dum as **** becouse it haven sense in corletaion to the main problem - Arjun LOS.

 

[pmaitra]

@ersakthivel and @Damian, may I request the both of you to please abstain from responding to each other?

Do this at least for a day.

@ersakthivel, you should not have have made that "homeland security" comment. Please do not provoke.

 

[sathya]

ersakthivel fights for his view persistently, with damian, whom i think dragged knowledgeable dejawolf , stgn , militrysta in this forum

now sakthivel i feel learnt more about tanks, defending his view and forcefully made debate with above members

which resulted in educating other members and guests in this forum. which is good.

i only wish debates go in a fun filled manner, so that, at the end everyone feels satisfied, happy and motivated to know more.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel and @Damian, may I request the both of you to please abstain from responding to each other?

Do this at least for a day.

@ersakthivel, you should not have have made that "homeland security" comment. Please do not provoke.

But after producing advanced 3D models why are these four people shying away from answering these four basic measurement questions from their model?

what is the distance between the two crew hatch hole center points in the ARJUN model produced by DEJAWOLF?

From what distance the Tc's seat right hand side edge is located from the turret centerline?

Is the scribbled red box called vision block is

1.In front of the the gunner's face ,

2.to the left of the gunner,

3.To the left of the Tc?

4.or Inrfront of the TC?

 

[pmaitra]

@ersakthivel, let's say you have asked one question, and they have not responded, so what? How can I or you force them to respond? Participation is voluntary, and the best you can do is ask them, and if your question goes unanswered, well, what can you do? I cannot force anyone to answer your question. Why not just let it go?

 

[ersakthivel]

ersakthivel fights for his view persistently, with damian, whom i think dragged knowledgeable dejawolf , stgn , militrysta in this forum

now sakthivel i feel learnt more about tanks, defending his view and forcefully made debate with above members

which resulted in educating other members and guests in this forum. which is good.

i only wish debates go in a fun filled manner, so that, at the end everyone feels satisfied, happy and motivated to know more.

Ofccourse I am indebted to Damian and DEJAWOLF for this fruit full debate about tanks,But for the fairness of the debate I feel they must answer the above six questions,

Because it will determine the real armor space on ARJUN, which was being accused by these 4 members of having next to nothing protection,

But they are not answering means ,I will have to stop questioning them, because persisting with these questions to people who are not going to answer will make me look silly.