Armed Forces vs Bureaucracy

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by GUNS-N- ROSES, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. GUNS-N- ROSES

    GUNS-N- ROSES Regular Member

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    Yesterday i was watching a debate on a premier news channel about Armed Forces vs Bureaucracy. a retired Lt general made quite a few valid observations. i will jus quite some some of them.

    1. 1962 war was a disaster for Indian army. both defence minister krishna menon and army chief P N Thapar were forced to resign. but does any one know who was defence secretary during that period. why was he not sacked or forced to resign?

    2. post 26/11, home minister shivraj patil was widely criticised and was eventually sacked. but wat abt home secretary?

    the point i am making is, it is the bureaucrats who run the country. the netas will come and go but babus will stay in chair. their lobby is so strong that even netas fear backlash. there is no accountability for babus.

    3. this mindset has resulted in netas continuously lowering standard of Indian Armed forces. Army/Air Force/Navy chiefs are supposed to be on par with defence secretary but the fact is it is defence secy who runs the show along with other babus. The proposals keep getting piled up and delayed. the files are returned with flimsiest of reasons. they do not have any understanding of requirements. the army men are treated as outcast.

    it is important for govt to realise that u cannot ignore armed forces for this long.
     
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  3. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Correct observation, and if one looks at the episode of letter by the IA chief to the PM and the on purpose leaking of it, it comes out as if its been the handy work of some bureaucrat to avenge the moral low the bureaucracy took at the hands of the general when he went to the court and then the allegation of kickback.

    The question also remains one of perception and who hogs the limelight. Actions get taken on perceptions created, and the perception is that the minister in charge and respective services’ head are the real people in charge, not so much the bureaucrat, so the public anger will always be directed towards these people. Unfortunately its not the fact that mattered to us, the viewer but on how we were made to understand, and based on that perception created, right or wrong, what action gets taken.

    Other than that, the IAS lobby is the strongest in the country, and factually even if the PM of the country wants some action to be taken, but the bureaucrat thinks otherwise and is adamant, no action will get taken because the concerned bureaucrat can entangle the PM in so many issues because this chap will know the complete ins and outs on how to do it and the PM will remain completely clueless.

    That said, there have been instances when bureaucrats have been sent to jail, suspensions have been ordered, but it is mostly the courts taking the action, not the government in charge. The unfortunate part is, the Army chaps aren’t clean as much either, prior to General Singh, it had become a habit with a big number of them to personally visit the MoD, the secretariat to get their work done and then they too become easy targets in the game that gets played.

    It’s the same with the IPS as well, chaps there get played always, and same is true with pretty much every government department.

    Eventually yes, its the government's call, but a very-very tough call to take.
     
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  4. Yatharth Singh

    Yatharth Singh Regular Member

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    And due to this, it politicians have no option left but to bribe those bureaucrats. Its they who hangs the work since no one if coming to ask for their accountability because the is their Minister and head of department who are accounted for everything. Most of us might even not know the names of most important bureaucrats involved in Defence acquisition. Even though everything is based upon their final evaluation report which decides the fate of any deal.
    Yet they arent highlighted in case of scams. Why? Its clear then they are well-protected by those leaders who are indulge in wrong deeds and they know that if one bureaucrat is ceased then everyone will come into the grip of Law just like a chain reaction.

    Very well putting up this topic and noticing this point.
     
  5. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    Bureaucrats too are transferred suspended / forced to retire or even dismissed depending upon
    their offences

    Bureaucrats are governed by service rules

    It is not that they are above the law

    But politicians being at the top of the government have to take the responsibility
    They have been elected by the people
    They go to the people and ask for votes

    So it appears that they are taking the flak

    But it is NOT so They disappear for a while and then come BACK as governors or something
    else .
    But a bureaucrat once he looses his job for an offence is like an ordinary person,
    they can even loose their pension
     
  6. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    The problems are inherent where the armed forces serve a civilian government. A military government has its own problems.
     
  7. GUNS-N- ROSES

    GUNS-N- ROSES Regular Member

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    the problems r result of failure of our politicians to acknowledge that day by day the soldier is losing respect.

    quite a few years back Jt secy was equal to a colonel. with every pay commission the civilian bureaucracy manages to take their position several nothces higher. now a jt secy is almost equivalent to major general. in some ways he is more powerfull than a major general. the same thing is applicable in counter insurgency scenario. the IPS officers have increased their position. operatioally it has led to several complications.
     
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    To Leave Or Not To Leave – Controversy of Indian Army Chief Retirement


    Hamid Hussain

    In a 1.3 million strong Indian army, there is a discrepancy about the date of birth of one officer. In Military Secretary’s (MS) branch the date of birth is May 10, 1950 while in Adjutant General’s (AG) branch it is May 10, 1951. This information was entered over three decades ago. In a mountain load of paperwork in such a large bureaucracy, it could be a simple clerical error of no significance. However, this simple clerical error first became a storm in the teacup that eventually became a real storm. In its aftermath, we are now witnessing ruined careers, bitter fights among senior officers, damaging leaks of sensitive documents, accusations of tinkering with promotion system, strain on civil military relations and bruised image of Indian army. The officer at the centre of this controversy is none other than the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Vijay Kumar Singh (2 Rajput Regiment nick named Kali Chindi).

    I became aware of the date of birth controversy in 2007 long before VK Singh was in the run for COAS position and had some misgivings knowing a little bit how the chairs are arranged at the deck. I wrote in 2008 “A controversy erupted when it was disclosed that V. K. Singh had discrepancy in his date of birth in different documents (May 10, 1950 vs. May 10, 1951). Records from Military Secretary and Adjutant General’s branches were leaked showing different dates of births. Singh would still be the senior most general in the race for the top slot but a year difference will shorten his tenure as army chief. It is alleged that some senior generals who may benefit from a shorter tenure of V. K. Singh may have leaked the information. Some of them have raised written objections about the issue and we may see some mudslinging in near future”. (Hamid Hussain. Indian Military Command Structure, Defence Journal, April 2008, Defence Journal - Contents)

    The main reason of the conflict is related to the succession of VK Singh. In Indian army, a Lieutenant General retires at the age of 60 while the retirement age of the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) is 62. Traditionally, the senior most Lieutenant General is selected as COAS therefore it is very easy to predict who is in line for the top slot (the only exception was when in 1983 Lieutenant General AS Vaidya was selected COAS superseding his senior Lieutenant General SK Sinha).

    VK Singh’s date of birth has an impact on the succession. If 1950 is accepted he will retire in May 2012 and head of Eastern Command Lieutenant General Bikram Singh (Sikh Light Infantry) being the senior most general will succeed him. However, if 1951 is accepted then VK Singh will retire in May 2013 and the senior most Lieutenant General at that time would be head of Northern Command Lieutenant General K T Parnaik (Bikram would have retired by that time reaching the retirement age of 60 in late 2012). After a bitter fight VK Singh lost the battle and recently the government announced that VK Singh will retire on May 31, 2012 and Lieutenant General Bikram Singh will succeed him.

    The real story starts with two previous Chiefs of Army Staff attempting to clear the line of succession. In 2006, VK Singh was the Chief of Staff (COS) of a Corps in Northern Command and was ready to take over the command of Ambala based II Corps. Then COAS General Jogindar Jaswant Singh (9 Marhatta Light Infantry) insisted that V K Singh accept 1950 as his year of birth. The reason was that JJ Singh wanted a shortened tenure of VK Singh ending in 2012 thus ensuring elevation of a fellow Sikh Lieutenant General Bikram Singh as next COAS. Plot seen in Indian army chief's age row:
    Asia Times Online :: Plot seen in Indian army chief's age row

    Some allege that VK Singh was summoned to Army Headquarters and told in no uncertain terms that if the army played the discrepancy of date of birth with Ministry of Defence (MOD), it could damage his career. It was made clear to him that he would become COAS in due time but with two year tenure and was asked to accept 1950 as his year of birth. VK Singh willingly put down in writing that whatever Army Headquarter decides would be acceptable to him in the larger interest of the Army. JJ Singh retired in September 2007 and General Deepak Kapoor (Artillery) took over as COAS. In 2008, VK Singh was now due to get an army command. Kapoor got him to sign again before appointing him GOC-in-C of Eastern Army Command: The Controversy over the Army Chief's Age

    It is also alleged that it was promised to VK Singh that they (Army & MoD) would take care of the issue of his date of birth in due time. VK Singh has admitted that he had asked two former Chief’s; JJ Singh and Deepak Kapoor for a correction to his date of birth but no action was taken. Although on two previous occasions, VK Singh had put in writing that he will abide by army’s decision; by 2009 VK Singh was now confident that no one could stop his appointment as next COAS. He was upset at reluctance of Kapoor to settle the issue and he started to strike back. By late 2009, the clash between Kapoor and VK Singh had become quite obvious. In August 2009, Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor (Artillery) recommended Lt. General P. C. Bhardwaj (First Para Battalion) as Vice Chief of Army Staff instead of Lieutenant General V K Singh who was the senior most Lt. General at the time. This started the rumour mill in Delhi that this recommendation showed Kapoor’s preference for the next Chief.

    In 2009, VK Singh then Eastern Army Commander started a Court Of Inquiry (COI) into what came to be known as Sukhna land scandal. Military authorities issued a No Objection Certificate (NOC) for construction of educational facilities by a private developer near the military station. It was not military land and involvement of military officers was only issuing a NOC and signing the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the state government. It was alleged that then Military Secretary Lieutenant General Avadesh Prakash (Kumaon Regiment) asked then 33rd Corps Commander Lieutenant General Prashant Kumar Rath to issue the NOC and he later complied without informing his boss VK Singh. The Chief of Staff of 33rd Corps Ramesh Halgali brought the issue to the notice of higher authorities. The COI indicted Rath and Prakash and recommended a court martial of both officers. It should be kept in mind that there were no charges of any financial irregularities but simply not following existing rules. It was a case of construction of facilities by a private developer on a land that belonged to state government. Military authorities came into picture for simply raising no objection to the project as the land was close to a military station. Prakash got into additional trouble when an inquiry by Central Command found some financial irregularities in Kumaon Regimental Centre at Ranikhet and indicted seven officers including a Major General. Prakash got entangled in this controversy, as he was then Colonel Commandant of the Kumaon Regiment. Kapoor tried to only take administrative action rather than a court martial of the officers but the MOD sided with VK Singh and both officers were court martialed.

    Kapoor vented his own anger by censuring Halgali and put the censure in his Annual Confidential Report (ACR) obstructing his career prospects. In late 2011, VK Singh recommended him for Deputy Chief of Army Staff (DCOAS) position but Kapoor’s censure in ACR was the roadblock. On the army’s recommendation, the MOD expunged the censure from Halgali’s ACR thus clearing his path: Govt clears Lt Gen's name in Sukna scam, appoints him dy chief of Army Staff - Indian Express

    In 2011, General VK Singh ordered another COI into Mumbai’s Adarsh Housing Society scandal. Land had been allotted for veterans of Kargil War of 1999 in Bombay, but when construction of the flats was completed several senior officers were given these flats instead of Kargil veterans. In March 2011, an army COI indicted two former Chiefs; Deepak Kapoor and NC Vij, four lieutenant generals (Tejinder Singh, P.K. Rampal, G.S. Sihota & Shantanu Choudhry) and four major generals (V.S. Yadav, Ram Kunwar Hooda, A.R. Kumar and Tej Kishen Kaul) and recommended that Central Bureau of Investigations (CBI) should probe the matter: Adarsh scam: Court of inquiry indicts ex-army chiefs Deepak Kapoor, NC Vij : North News - India Today

    The real damage to the institution stems from the grievous charge that somehow army chief General JJ Singh engaged in a ‘look down policy’ to determine the ‘line of succession’ to the top position in the Army to favour a fellow Sikh. They allege that a detailed plan nick named ‘Operation Moses’ (suggesting that like the Old testament story the Chief would part the waters for Bikram Singh to smoothly walk through to become Chief) looking at the careers of many officers was started by JJ Singh. Bikram was Brigadier at that time and there were lot of variables to be considered. It is alleged that a number of qualified officers seen as threat to Bikram’s advancement were sidelined; see Former army chief J J Singh worked out the plans to make way for Bikram Singh to take over | Causes |


    The names of five officers from Bikram’s batch who were sidelined to favour him have been cited as proof of this plot. These officers were Brigadiers Padam Budhwar and MM Chaudhary and Majors Generals AK Singh, Shujjan Chatterjee, and Ravi Arora. See Special Article

    Arora’s case is interesting and raises many questions. He was the gold medallist from his batch and he was passed over for promotion from Brigadier to Major General in 2005. He made a representation against the promotion board decision but no decision was taken. In May 2005, he lodged a statutory complaint with the MOD that was accepted in 2006. However, he was again rejected by the next promotion board held in July 2006 (four other officers of the 1972 batch were also not considered for promotion). In a bizarre move, in the next promotion board meeting of November 2006, Arora was approved for promotion to Major General rank although he had not made any representation. However, promotion was approved with the condition that his seniority be decreased by one year considering him with 1973 batch. See www.outlookindia.com | The Generals And Particulars Everyone deduced from this exercise that Arora was too good to be sidelined at Brigadier rank, however by this manoeuvre he was made junior to Bikram and was thus now not a threat to Bikram’s advancement.

    I have some doubts about this specific incident as JJ Singh become Chief in on January 31 and Arora’s first promotion board was held in February. It seems unlikely that the stage was set that early and JJ Singh could influence promotion board members. Even if other parts of the allegation are true, Arora may have been superseded as normal process. However, this allegation of tampering with system got credence when during VK Singh’s petition to Supreme Court, Attorney General Goolam Vahnavati in his letter to the Supreme Court opposing the V.K. Singh’s request for relevant official records to show his correct date of birth, referred to a mysterious “succession plan” that he said the authorities were determined to protect. See: Army’s “succession plan”? | Security Wise

    A large number of officers are considered for promotion at every rank and there are many details that may not be relevant to the decision of promotion. Indian army has close to one hundred Lieutenant Generals, about 300 Major Generals and over 1000 Brigadiers at any given time. I have re-constructed these events to the best of my knowledge and these may have been normal procedures of promotions and supersession. However, if this allegation is true and senior most officer of the army was engaged in this intrigue to simply favour a fellow Sikh and in the process damaged the careers of good officers then it is a bad omen for the Indian army. No soldier worth his salt can be proud of such dirty tricks.

    In 2011, VK Singh submitted a statutory complaint asking MOD to correct his date of birth that was rejected. In January 2012, he took the unprecedented step and filed a petition in Supreme Court. The two-member bench (Justices RM Lodha and HL Gokhale) gave clear indication that they will not accept VK Singh’s position thus forcing him to withdraw his petition. See: Forces must accept govt’s supremacy - Times Of India

    Now the rift was quite open between VK Singh and government and the fissures within senior ranks. VK Singh accused former head of Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) retired Lieutenant General Tejinder Singh and some officers in military intelligence directorate of leaking false information that General VK Singh had bugged offices of MOD. See: Generals at war

    A Major General and Colonel of MI directorate was reported to be under investigation for leaking damaging information to media. See: The Week | Beep trouble

    In another interview, VK Singh didn’t name Tajinder but it is quite clear from the details that Tejinder was acting as lobbyist for a firm which offered him Rs. 14 crore bribe to clear the purchase of substandard army vehicles. See: The Hindu : News / National : I was offered a bribe of Rs. 14 crore, says Army Chief

    After his direct clash with the government and decision to remain in office VK Singh has created an untenable situation for himself and many other officers. There is now a direct confrontation between MOD and VK Singh that is being played out to the cost of the army. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has wisely stayed away from the controversy and let his defence minister handle the issue. Even an innocuous statement from the Prime Minister will allow his opponents to accuse him of favouring a fellow Sikh for COAS position.

    The MOD and army Chief have been at loggerheads since 2010 regarding some changes in promotion policies. VK Singh wanted to change some of these policies promulgated during Deepak Kapoor’s time. In January 2011, VK Singh made changes in the ‘quantification process’ and promotion boards for Major General and Lieutenant General rank cleared all successful candidates for both command and staff. MOD bureaucracy resisted clearing the promotion board results. See Ajai Shukla: Promoting crisis in the military

    MOD bureaucrats were against this move but Defence Minister A K Antony approved it to avoid a confrontation. See: Army chief, defence ministry tussle over new Assam Rifles chief - Indian Express

    In January 2012, the MOD also objected to the army’s recommendation of Lieutenant General Sanjiv Chachra (Rajput Regiment) for the post of Military Secretary. See: Defence ministry rejects Army nominee for military secretary - Hindustan Times

    However, later the MOD relented and he was appointed Military Secretary. After these two concessions, it was quite clear that the MOD will stand its ground now and the Director General (DG) Assam Rifles issue provided the excuse for the MOD to push back against VK Singh.

    DG Assam Rifles comes under the Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) but the army has operational control of the organization. Generally, DG’s name is sent to MHA through MOD. In December 2010, army headquarters sent three names for the post of DG Assam Rifles and Lieutenant General Rameshwar Roy (7 Jammu & Kashmir Infantry) was appointed. In December 2011, Roy was recalled by army headquarters on charges of financial irregularities (some personal expenses for hair cuts and facials by his wife were charged to government exchequer) despite reservations by MHA and MOD.

    VK Singh then sent the name of his DGMO Lieutenant General Ashok Kumar Choudhry (5 Mahar) as Roy’s replacement directly to MHA bypassing MOD. As expected MOD first showed displeasure that it should have been routed through MOD and then rejected VK Singh’s recommendation on the pretext that Choudhry has less than two years remaining and asked him to send the list of three other officers. See: Defence ministry snubs Army chief again - Times Of India

    More important is the fact that Choudhry has been at the crucial position of DGMO for barely three months and shuffling senior officers at important positions after few months is not a healthy sign VK Singh is clearly angry and his most recent move against a serving senior officer is bizarre. On March 22, the army recommended to the MOD for approval of 3rd Corps Commander Lieutenant General Dalbir Singh Suhag as Army Commander. A week later, VK Singh sent a request directly to CBI bypassing again the MOD to investigate Suhag as he had found a year old letter of complaint against the officer sent by a member of parliament. Suhag is line for the race for COAS in 2014. See: General VK Singh reloads as govt looks to retreat - Hindustan Times

    The remaining two months of VK Singh’s tenure will be engulfed in these street brawls.




    In the date of birth case, the evidence is in VK Singh’s favour as most documents show 1951 as his year of birth. However two factors went against VK Singh. First, the important Army List is based on MS branch records and the generally accepted rule is that in the absence of original birth certificate the Army List will be considered final. The second and more damaging is the fact that VK Singh had compromised his own case when he accepted 1951 as his year of birth on three crucial stages of his career; General Officer Commanding of II Corps in 2006, General Officer-Commanding-in-Chief of Eastern Command in 2008 and finally COAS in 2010. This fact has been cited by the Supreme Court bench when it forced VK Singh to withdraw his petition.

    Ideally, he should have discussed the issue frankly with the Defence Minister and once it was clear that government would not accept his case, he should have let it go. He should have refrained from going to Supreme Court and if he had decided to go the court he should have thought about his own course of action if case was decided against him. Even his admirers admit that after the court decision against him the only honourable way left for him was resignation. Unfortunately, not too many officers are known to resign on principle. If VK Singh had resigned, it would have been a win-win situation for him. He could claim that he resigned on principle and even his adversaries would have had to given him credit. This would also prove to be a sweet revenge by toppling the applecart of succession. If he had resigned before February 28, senior most Lieutenant General AK Ahluwalia (Artillery) and after February 28, senior most Lieutenant General Shankar Ghosh (Brigade of Guards) would be the likely succession candidates. The government then would have had to either appoint the most senior lieutenant general or break the precedent creating problems.

    Critics of VK Singh allege that his tenure has been wasted on petty personal issues ignoring the needs of the army. The most damaging effect has been on defence preparedness and the fissures within the senior ranks as well as a general despondency amongst officers. The MOD was not enthusiastic about the changes in promotion policy for senior ranks fearing legal challenges from disgruntled officers and has now referred the matter to the Law Ministry. The end result being that the promotion of over forty brigadiers and major generals was put on hold for the second time in a year. No serious effort was made towards modernization and inertia at the highest level is costing the army dearly. It had to return 3’000 crore Rupees of unspent funds to government to the dismay of many officers. See: Generals at war

    The COAS designate Lieutenant General Bikram Singh is considered a good officer by many with a track record. Someone who knows him personally considers him to be a professional officer but very ambitious. He is from the old school, which has a strong regimental ethos. Bikram will be taking over as commander of the Indian army in very difficult times. He will have two urgent and crucial tasks on his hands to put the Indian army on even keel before addressing the real issues facing the institution. First he has to repair the relations of army with the MOD and secondly he has to make sure that current mistrust between senior officers is addressed and alleviated. Bikram has to overcome many of his own misconceptions about some officers and start afresh. He will have to work hard to create smooth working relations with his team of senior officers based on respect and professionalism. If he fails to reverse the current toxic environment amongst the highest ranks then the next two years will see the same unhealthy trend and inertia remain with a negative fallout for the army and the country.

    A senior officer of the old school when officers were also gentlemen once told me, ‘an officer is remembered and respected for what he gives to the army to make it a better institution and not for what he takes from the army to advance his own career’.











    Position Name
    COAS
    VCOAS
    DCOAS (Training)
    DCOAS (Policy & Services)
    MS
    AG
    QMG
    DGMO
    DGMI General VK Singh (2 Rajput Regiment)
    Lieutenant General SK Singh (8 Gorkha Rifles)
    Lieutenant General Ramesh Halgali
    Lieutenant General Narindar Singh
    Lieutenant General Sanjiv Chachra (Rajput Regiment)
    Lieutenant General Jai Prakash Nehra
    Lieutenant General Munish Sibal
    Lieutenant General Ashok Kumar Chaudhry (5 Mahar)
    Lieutenant General DS Thakur (1 Marhatta Light Infantry)

    TABLE: I. Current senior staff officers of Indian Army. COAS: Chief of Army Staff, VCOAS: Vice-Chief of Army Staff, DCOAS: Deputy Chief of Army Staff, MS: Military Secretary, AG: Adjutant General, QMG: Quarter Master General, DGMO: Director General Military Operations. DGMI: Director General Military Intelligence.


    Command GOC-in-Chief
    Northern Command
    Western Command
    Central Command
    Southern Command
    Eastern Command
    South-Western Command
    ARTRAC Lieutenant General KT Parnaik (2 Rajputana Rifles)
    Lieutenant General Shankar Ranjan Ghosh (Brigade of Guards)
    Lieutenant General Anil Chait (Armoured Corps)
    Lieutenant General AK Singh (7 Light Cavalry)
    Lieutenant General Bikram Singh (Sikh Light Infantry)
    Lieutenant General Gyan Bhushan (Mahar)
    Lieutenant General Surendra Nath

    TABLE: II. Current army Commanders of Indian Army. ARTRAC: Army Training Command


    Note: The author thanks many well-informed individuals for their valuable input and clarifications. The conclusion and all errors and omissions are the author’s sole responsibility.

    Hamid Hussain
    March 30, 2012

    Indian army in the news.. - Small Wars Council
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2012
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  9. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    @ P2prada

    THough I immensely respect Indian Army Chief

    I would rather believe what PM and Defence minster have to say on Army's state of preparedness

    The so called letter bomb was written on 12 MARCH just a few days before the General Budget

    Our Chiefs have written in the past also directly to the PM

    IAF chiefs have written to the PM and asked for more Su 30 mki
    and IN chiefs about delays in naval acquisitons

    Just the fact that the current ANti corruption environment in the country has made this letter bomb
    more deadlier GIVING the impression that ALL money is being lost and our preparedness has suffered
    because of that

    The service chiefs WANT more funds for the speedy modernisations of the Armed FORCES

    Their aim is perfectly laudable but they are GIVEN to hyperbole
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
  10. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    WAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAH! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

    So, you have no idea that we actually destroyed over half our APFSDS stocks in a year because they were faulty.
     
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  11. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    @ P2prada

    All that we hear is a " whine fest " in the media

    SOme deliberate and motivated leakages about lack of equipment

    We dont have this we dont have that

    I ASK if we are in so bad shape why are the Pakis and Chinese not attacking us

    Dont you think our enemies KNOW our real strength but we the common people
    are unnecessarily being harangued about lack of weapons and equipment
     
  12. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    Some years back Our PM made a statement in Parliament when the opposition was crying Hoarse
    about our preparedness

    It was a simple statement but powerful enough that it is etched in my memory

    He said

    The " Govt of India has a SACRED duty of protecting the country
    The people of India have a SACRED Trust in the govt that the govt will look after India's security
    The govt will never ever let down the trust that the people have in the govt "

    So why should I NOT trust my Country's PM

    PS : I am A BJP voter but I will trust India's PM any day even though he is a Congress PM
     
  13. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    It is not something to worry about a lot. The ammo depletion is in our war reserves. We have plenty already. But the army likes statistics and planning. So, they desperately need their shells or heads will roll.

    This ammo depletion is as serious as our air force squadron strength.

    Countries don't attack simply because you have a temporary problems. Finding a reason to attack is not easy.
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    India’s modernisation has always been slow because national priorities have been aimed elsewhere and because ever since the Bofors deal, all concerned are very chary about being labeled corrupt and hounded thereafter, be they politician, military personnel or civil servants. It is an unfortunate situation and yet a reality.

    One of the infirmity is that there is no national strategic vision from which the concepts, organisational structure, weaponry et al can be based. Though the CDS concept has been accepted, it has not been implemented and the recommendation that the Military and Defence Ministry be integrated has not been done. The reason is historic. Given the perception that post Independence politicians had, they were averse to the military, given their pre Independence experience that it is but an instrument of repression, though publicly they never admitted it so. That is the reason why in the Order of Precedence, the C in C’s position got slowly demoted from No 2 pre Independence to the current 12.
    Papers from the Indian Defence Review

    CDS would give the military a coordinated approach and playing one against the other would become difficult (as it is being done).

    Indian Army was not modernised till 1962 because of this aversion and for which India had to face the drubbing that it did in 1962. It is post 1962 that modernisation of the military was addressed and even that was tardy. One of the reason why the 1971 war was delayed was because the then Chief, it is said, refused to act till the Army was equipped suitably. To imagine this was the state of affairs when India was being ruled by its own version of the Iron Lady!

    The problems that we see is the usual bureaucrat vs the military tussle for supremacy and the bureaucrats have won because they have capitalised on the legacy of the aversion of the politician about the military and added the fear aspect thanks to the happenings of the neighbourhood where the military had the same traditions as the Indian Army, but had cast them aside to usurp power! The other problem is that, unlike the western nations, Indian politicians have no experience of having served in the Armed Forces and so are quite clueless about the requirements or even what the military does or is expected to do!!

    In this unique environment, procurement is done. Politics in a vast country like India is an expensive proposition. Therefore, many view Armed Forces procurement as a cash cow, given the fact that very few understand strategy or even the military. Therefore, procurement remains as opaque as ever where vested interests can play ducks and drakes, so to say. And even when a deal is effected, vested interests raise issues giving it a twist that it was a crooked deal. This prevents even a done deal from being implemented till cleared by various Inquiries and Commissions!

    To be fair, much of the mess has been whittled down, but then it still has loopholes. To wit, take the Tatra issue that has raised a stink. The rules are clear – procurement has to be made directly and not through third parties. Tatra is Czechoslovakian in manufacture and so it should have been a direct deal. Yet, it has been done through a third party and that too the end manufacturer is a Govt Public Sector Undertaking (PSU)!!

    The fact that our Defence Research and Development Organisation and PSUs have not delivered satisfactorily adds to the woes. The reason stems from the fact that there is no military background of our scientists and manufacturers and so they operate in their own world. When given a GSQR (General Staff Qualitative Requirement), they promise the world and convince the Ministers and bureaucrats. And what they deliver is far from what is desired or what they had promised! At times, to give the indigenous defence industry a chance to mature, some equipment is forced to be taken on board.

    Notwithstanding, as in every other war, where we have been short on modern equipment, the Armed Forces have delivered. It will deliver with whatever it has, but it will have to be at a heavy cost to the lives of people who are ordered to deliver. It is but a professional hazard that one has to accept and yet, it is time that such high rate of sacrifices should be the exception and not the rule.

    In so far as the major theatre of war against Pakistan, it is Kashmir and no where else. The reason is that any territory captured in Kashmir, does not have to be returned as per the Simla Agreement. Earlier, one had to return all territories. The territory captured elsewhere is for statistics as to who captured more. Of course, there is no denying that such actions are also designed to further the overall plan.

    Given the threat of a nuclear confrontation, even this has been watered down wherein one is not aiming to threaten critical areas where it can escalate to a nuclear war.

    It is not that the Air Force or the Navy have seamless procurement machineries dovetailed into the Ministry of Defence’s requirement. It is just that it is being tomtomed to make the beleaguered Chief look bad. The Air Force has just been able to get the Govt to conclude the MMRCA (and that too, it is under a cloud and rethink, because some vendor has claimed that it was shady) and their requirement for a jet trainer has been and is languishing for years. As for the Navy, we are still wondering when will the Groshkov arrive and will there be some more glitches!

    These are problems that require to be solved and it cannot be done in a jiffy because India continues to be democracy and will continue to be one because that is the tradition that we are not ready to jettison come what may!
     
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  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    To be frank, we don't have what we should have.

    That is no secret and was known even earlier.

    However, the leaked letter has merely added 'authenticity'.

    Why is Pakistan and China not attacking?

    They have their own problems.

    Pakistan is incapable of fighting on two fronts.

    China, notwithstanding all it brouhaha, is mortified of what will happen inside Tibet and Xinjiang, if they attack India.

    If one feels that the US is not interested, it will be worth noting that the Uighur Rebel head is in the US and the new PM of Tibet Govt in exile is also from the US!

    China will not be able to contain either of the insurgencies that will take place and it will divert its attention from succeeding against India and may lose both the territories they are holding with repression!
     
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  16. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    So whats solution ??? will complusory militraty traning for all eligible adults would solve the problem ???

    on the other i think its nethas which have given to much to importance to indian bureaucracy that to IAS looby . from eveyy department we see some IAS heading even when they have no knowledge of the concern domain including some IPS department.

    our netas are fool who do not have any domain knowledge of the concerned department ,they are just inteseted in making money without their name begin spolied

    .
     
  17. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    so we can assume that in year 2024 we can see pak attacking us (since americans would be out by 2014 and we can count that pak would atleast require 1 decade to settle their west front) . till that time we would continue to get small dose of terrorist attacks and china would latter join to save pakistan
     
  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    One can assume what one wants to. There is no embargo on that.

    While there are many reasons why China and Pakistan is not taking advantage, the geopolitical and geostrategic reality cannot be wished away.

    For example, there is a view that the Arab Spring, the Colour Revolutions and all that were spontaneous reaction to 'oppressive regimes' and there was no external impetus.

    But the realities suggest otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
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  19. lemontree

    lemontree Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    I just hope Bikram Singh does not make way for another regimental officer, who is currently in the fag end of commanding a div in the eastern sector. That chap has no professional courage.
     
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  20. Spindrift

    Spindrift Regular Member

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    Here is a quote from the BBC series "Yes Minister" that will sum up the Civil Services for you and i have come to believe this to be true

    "The Opposition aren't really the opposition. They are only the Government in exile. The Civil Service are the opposition in residence. "
     

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